Total PC Gaming Noob - please advise

J

jedimacfan

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Aug 1, 2004
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Hi,

I want to sell my Apple PowerBook in order to get a PC that will play DOOM III. My question is about the video cards for PC's. I would like an ATI X800 or the Nvidia 6800 but they are sold out everywhere. I found a place with the Xtasy version of the X800 in stock but I don't know the difference between the Xtasy and the "normal" X800. Is one better than the other?

Because of the cost difference I am also weighing the option for a Radeon 9800 of some type. Thoughts and opinions?

I am coming from a 128 meg Mobility Radeon 9700 in the notebook so I imagine just about anything should be faster than that on a PC mini tower.

Thanks so much,

Michael
 
From what I read, the X800 may be more of an evolution in card design than a revolution, but if you can afford to wait for a month or two to mate an X800XT PE with a 3.4 or 3400+ processor or higher, you will have something that will double (or more) the performance of the 9800 series (Pro or XT), though for 2-3 times the price (the law of diminishing returns).

There will be loads of extra info on PCI Express cards and whatnot which I can't offer an opinion on (I'm not that technical), nor on this Xtasy card you mention, but my personal choice (as a gamer I must stress) is to wait for the X800 XT. If you are only getting a processor of less than 3Ghz or equivalent, the 6800GT or X800 Pro (or indeed the 9800 Pro for value) might be a good choice.

Edit: this site has a quality test of what hardware will run Doom3 best, and the GF6800Ultra comes out top, but in pretty much every other game, the X800XT beats it and will still run D3 at 1600x1200. Again, just personal opinion from the articles I've read.
 
The $399 6800GT is by far the best value in video cards today. It features Shader Model 3.0, OpenEXR HDR Lighting, and 16 pipelines unlike the competing x800pro. It's also faster than the $500 x800xtpe in Doom3. A great value overall.

You can preorder one from eVGA here for $399, it ships in 1.5 weeks:

eVGA 6800GT $399
http://www.evga.com/products/moreinfo.asp?Part_Number=256-A8-N344-AX

Or if you really need one today, you can spend more and get one right away:
XFX 6800GT $449
http://www.allstarshop.com/shop/product.asp?pid=9400
 
mulpsmebeauty said:
From what I read, the X800 may be more of an evolution in card design than a revolution, but if you can afford to wait for a month or two to mate an X800XT PE with a 3.4 or 3400+ processor or higher, you will have something that will double (or more) the performance of the 9800 series (Pro or XT), though for 2-3 times the price (the law of diminishing returns).

There will be loads of extra info on PCI Express cards and whatnot which I can't offer an opinion on (I'm not that technical), nor on this Xtasy card you mention, but my personal choice (as a gamer I must stress) is to wait for the X800 XT. If you are only getting a processor of less than 3Ghz or equivalent, the 6800GT or X800 Pro (or indeed the 9800 Pro for value) might be a good choice.

Edit: this site has a quality test of what hardware will run Doom3 best, and the GF6800Ultra comes out top, but in pretty much every other game, the X800XT beats it and will still run D3 at 1600x1200. Again, just personal opinion from the articles I've read.
Click to expand...

The high-end versions of the latest cards, the 6800Ultra from nvidia and the X800XT from ATi are generally considered to be equals in all games based on DirectX. However in all games based on OpenGL (Doom3, Call of Duty, KOTOR, etc etc) the 6800 series reigns supreme.

Currently the only X800 card seeing any availability is the X800Pro which only has 12 pixel pipelines as compared to it's rival the 6800GT which has 16 (both are $400, the 6800Ultra and X800XT are $500). The 6800GT easily overclocks to the speed of the Ultra version with stock cooling (mine is running great).

So basically, unless you can find an X800XTPE the clear choice is the 6800GT which is relatively available. If you poke around here or at nvnews.net you can find where they are available at any given moment. IF you can find an X800XT it is an extremely fast card, whose only real blemishes are relatively poor OpenGL performance and the lack of Shader Model 3.0 support which are more or less important depending on who you talk to.

Personally I think the ONLY card to buy right now is the 6800GT, you get all the new features, outstanding Doom3 performance, and overclockability to Ultra speeds all for $100 less than the X800XT or the 6800Ultra. And from what I've seen on this and other forums, the general concensus is that the GT is THE card to get.

Also, you asked about the Xtacy version of the card...essentially the card is just rebranded and resold by a different manufacturer so it's the exact same card, but they may have better games bundled with the card or they may have a better heatsink and fan that may allow more overclockability. The BFG versions of the 6800 cards are the one exception, they are all 20Mhz faster than the stock cards, thus they get a "OC" at the end of their names...ex. "BFG GeForce 6800 GT OC"
 
I'm with you on the GT being the best on price and availability (I'm UK based by the way - I once saw a single Ultra on sale online and it vanished out of stock in about ooooh 3 minutes), but I'm in the fortunate position of having a few quid floating around to buy the best currently available card. The thing I like about the X800XT PE is that all the benchmarks I've read show that no matter how much you crank it up, the FPS suffer less than even a water cooled 6800 overclocked 6800U, mostly at the top res. I'm definitely not looking to knock any 6800U buyers here - I'm just reciting what I've read online and will gladly post links where I draw my conclusions if it comes to it. I have the PSU and room for any 6800U, but feel the X800 XT will suit me better.

This is all because I have a 3400+ processor though. If I had the old 1800+ I've just replaced (with 250W PSU) I would be thinking of the 6800GT
 
mulpsmebeauty said:
I'm with you on the GT being the best on price and availability (I'm UK based by the way - I once saw a single Ultra on sale online and it vanished out of stock in about ooooh 3 minutes), but I'm in the fortunate position of having a few quid floating around to buy the best currently available card. The thing I like about the X800XT PE is that all the benchmarks I've read show that no matter how much you crank it up, the FPS suffer less than even a water cooled 6800 overclocked 6800U, mostly at the top res. I'm definitely not looking to knock any 6800U buyers here - I'm just reciting what I've read online and will gladly post links where I draw my conclusions if it comes to it. I have the PSU and room for any 6800U, but feel the X800 XT will suit me better.

This is all because I have a 3400+ processor though. If I had the old 1800+ I've just replaced (with 250W PSU) I would be thinking of the 6800GT
Click to expand...

Post your link. I bet it's the review at Driver Heaven which was run with the 6800s anistropic filtering optimizations turned off and therefore is not only invalid but a huge embarrassment for the biased reviewers at DH who decided to play dumb and not enable the optimizations that everyone in the world knows about.

The X800XT does scale better at 1600x1200 with full AF and AA, due to it's "optimized" filtering (personally I don't like it and neither does John Carmack).
 
I would like to see these sources as well. When compared on equal footings the 6800U and x800xtpe are about the same, and the 6800GT beats the x800pro.
 
You said Mini PC Tower, are you thinking of one of those small cases, like a shuttle? Then I'd double check if a 6800 card will fit in one, they are huge, while X800 cards are a good size.

But yeah, a 6800GT is the best overall card for performance and price. It beats the X800pro at the same price and then can keep up or beat a 6800 Ultra with overclocking. You can overclock an X800pro past X800XT speeds, but it will never perform as good because it has 12pipes instead of 16 like all the other cards.

Also, for card right away there's the 6800 standard $299 cards (12pipes and 128mb of ram), easily found for $282, they seem to be in good supply and will play Doom3 at 1280*960 noAA 8xAF High Quality a bit better than the X800pro. Though, the X800pro will beat that $299 card in most other games at higher resolutions with high AA. The 6800 also beats down a 9800XT which still costs $450+ or a similar nvidia card.

So before considering a 9800 of some type, think of a $299 6800. Plus you can find ones bundled games that can make up that extra $100 over a 9800pro card. Like one 6800 comes with Far Cry (evga brand), or a bundle with Prince of Persia/Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorrow/GunMetal (Leadtek brand), or the MSI brand with Prince of Persia again, Myst Uru, and XIII, plus a bunch of other stuff for 14cds total. So you can find some really great deals.

I just ordered the Leadtek 6800, has cool games and plenty of cables/adapters:
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-122-193&depa=0

Oh, you asked about the Xtasy X800, that's a Visiontek card, right? Nothing is really changed on the cards from other companies over the built by ATI ones. Though, Visiontek cards are known to overclock better and they include a lifetime warranty, while ati only offers 3 years. Also, again, check for one with a great bundle, I think MSI will have a X800 card, there 14cd bundle can't be beat.
 
GET THE 6800GT, the reasons:

better benchmarks with the GT than the x800xtpe(specifically for D3, which is why you're selling your laptop), the GT is $100 less than the x800xtpe. The ultra would also be a great choice, but the only thing is that you're gonna need a lot of better power supply for it. the GT is the best bang for your buck.

You could wait until some other mobo's come out that support new features, but I bet you don't want to wait 1 more second to play doom 3.
 
Here's what I have been reading up on. Now bear in mind again that I have no affiliation with ATI or NVidia cards - I simply want a card that will run things at 1600X1200 with AA and AF on (not because I have examples to show this is where the ATI card is better, simply because I have a monitor that will run these resolutions and I don't see why I should compromise with the money I am willing to spend)
Here is Tomshardware running Far Cry - 6800U with Shader Model 3 vs the X800 XT. Note how the XT doesn't really suffer too much (go through the pages) when things get hot and this is where the 6800 is mooted to be going to go past the XT easily:

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040705/farcry-05.html#level_research

Here on Hard OCP look at how the 6800U generally runs at higher res/settings than the XT (again scroll through the pages):

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjExLDQ=

The conclusion from another site (again scroll back through the test results):

http://www.nordichardware.com/reviews/graphiccard/2004/r420/index.php?ez=19

I can post more that I have come across. Again, please, please don't think I'm some sort of lurking fanboy. I can see that the 6800 chipset probably has more room for improvement than the Radeon one, but that at the resolution I want to play at, I want the XT PE. When it comes down to it, both cards play up to 1280 res with all settings full at playable FPS, but when you go that step further (which I feel I'm paying the money for, I think the Radeon holds up better)

Edit: Ooops - again not trying to usurp the post at all, I'm sure we all agree that unless the percentages mean the world to you, you won't take a hiding by buying a GF6800 GT/U or X800 Pro/XT or indeed a 9800Pro if on a moderate budget.
 
^eMpTy^ said:
The high-end versions of the latest cards, the 6800Ultra from nvidia and the X800XT from ATi are generally considered to be equals in all games based on DirectX. However in all games based on OpenGL (Doom3, Call of Duty, KOTOR, etc etc) the 6800 series reigns supreme.
Click to expand...

One thing of note here Empty, both OGL and D3D are API's under Direct X, it's not necessarly Direct X vs OGL in the scheme of things. Yeah I know im playin symantecs but both OGL and D3D hand off there functions to Direct X from my understanding of it all. ;)
 
As I suspected, the reviews you referred to are outdated or faulty.

mulpsmebeauty said:
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040705/farcry-05.html#level_research
Click to expand...

In this review, the 6800U matches or beats the x800xt, and the 6800GT beats the x800pro by a wide margin. This is a recent review and is somewhat indicative of current performance.

Here on Hard OCP look at how the 6800U generally runs at higher res/settings than the XT (again scroll through the pages):

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjExLDQ=
Click to expand...

Old drivers, no sm3.0 patch. Review is too old, not indicative of current performance.

http://www.nordichardware.com/reviews/graphiccard/2004/r420/index.php?ez=19
Click to expand...

Old drivers again, questionable whether both manufactures were using trilinear optimizations or not. Review is too old, not indicative of current performance.


It's well known the 6800 series gained up to 50% speed increases with the 61.34+ series drivers. It's also well known that in early reviews reviewers were deceived by ATI into disabling trilinear optimizations on Nvidia cards while they remained enabled on ATI cards, skewing benchmarks in ATI's favor.

More recent reviews show the 6800GT beating the x800pro soundly, and the 6800U matching the x800xtpe. Except the Doom3 benchmarks which show both the 6800GT and 6800U beating the x800xtpe.

Try some more recent reviews that use 61.34 or better drivers:
http://www2.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjQyLDM=
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2113&p=4
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/geforce_6800_performance_and_overclocking/page5.asp
...etc

In reality the 6800U matches the x800xtpe and the 6800GT beats the x800pro, except in Doom3 where the x800 series performs poorly compared to the 6800 series in general. That is how things stand currently.

The 6800GT is by far the best buy for the money.
 
Thanks for the constructive answer - I have to say I'm looking for a way to justify to myself that the 6800U is a viable alternative to the XT PE, as I reckon I can get the former much sooner than the latter!

A few points though:
- I put the SM3 test in from Tomshardware to show that even with this used (and it won't be used on all upcoming games), the performance is equal between the 6800U and XT PE.
- The test for Doom 3 is not ideal - NVidia seems much better for OpenGL games, with the XT PE ahead on pretty much everything else from what I've seen (again a generalization, but based on my own research to get the best card I can)
- www.anandtech.com seems to be using an Ultra 'Extreme', clocked at 450Mhz, rather than the 400Mhz of the 'standard' Ultra. I have searched for a price online for these recently, but I don't believe that they are selling them as standard. I remain unconvinced that the increased core speed makes it quicker than the XT PE
- www.firingsquad.com doesn't mention the XT PE - it only compares the 6800 cards vs the X800 Pro. I am after an XT PE.

If someone can show me an unbiased site with tests showing that the newer 6800U drivers stop it bogging down badly at 1600X1200 with AA and AF I will not quite shake his/her hand owing to the limitations of the internet, but I will offer them my thanks!
 
mulpsmebeauty said:
- I put the SM3 test in from Tomshardware to show that even with this used (and it won't be used on all upcoming games), the performance is equal between the 6800U and XT PE.
Click to expand...

Well, the 6800U is ahead a bit actually if you look at all the benchmarks, but yes they are close, reason being is because the SM3.0 in FarCry is a very mild implementation. Once we get deeper implementations that gap will widen.

- The test for Doom 3 is not ideal - NVidia seems much better for OpenGL games, with the XT PE ahead on pretty much everything else from what I've seen (again a generalization, but based on my own research to get the best card I can)
Click to expand...

Again, provide some recent reviews (using 61.34+ nvidia drivers, and not from driverheaven.net which uses biased review methods) to backup this statement. From recent reviews using newer drivers, one can see that the 6800U matches the x800xtpe in D3D and beats it soundly in OGL.

- www.anandtech.com seems to be using an Ultra 'Extreme', clocked at 450Mhz, rather than the 400Mhz of the 'standard' Ultra. I have searched for a price online for these recently, but I don't believe that they are selling them as standard. I remain unconvinced that the increased core speed makes it quicker than the XT PE
Click to expand...

Most Ultras (BFG, eVGA, PNY, Gainward, Albatron, POV, XFX, etc) come clocked at 425mhz, and many can be OC'd to 450mhz. Anand's review actually includes both the Ultra at 400mhz and the Ultra Extreme at 450mhz. You can expect retail Ultra performance to fall halfway between these two scores.


www.firingsquad.com doesn't mention the XT PE - it only compares the 6800 cards vs the X800 Pro. I am after an XT PE.
Click to expand...

That is true, but it is a good review for comparing 6800GT/x800pro performance with old and new drivers. Note how in the early reviews you posted the x800pro was keeping up with the 6800U, but now with new drivers and fair benchmarking the x800pro gets beaten by the 6800GT across the board, nevermind the 6800U. See the anandtech review for 6800U/x800xt performance.

If someone can show me an unbiased site with tests showing that the newer 6800U drivers stop it bogging down badly at 1600X1200 with AA and AF I will not quite shake his/her hand owing to the limitations of the internet, but I will offer them my thanks!
Click to expand...

The anandtech review is your ticket, it has the 6800, 6800GT, 6800U, and 6800EE against the x800pro and x800xtpe in a variety of games (note he is not using the sm3.0 patch for farcry results unfortunately) using newer drivers
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2113&p=4

I had been saying for a long time before Doom3 benchmarks came out that the 6800 series was going to beat the x800 series in Doom3 based on my knowledge of the architecture of the two cards and their driver performance.

I will say now that based on my knowledge of SM3.0, I am predicting that once games start to use SM3.0 more heavily, we will see a gap similar to the one we see with Doom3 between the 6800 and x800 in D3D. The 6800 is definitely the more future proof card.
 
You've got my attention. I will have a look in more detail tomorrow (when I haven't been drinking) and post again with my thoughts :)
 
It is all a bit confusing. If you spend like 10 hours reading and analyzing all available data you come to the conclusion that the XTPE and the 6800Ultra are pretty much equal. The Ultra does much better in opengl and has shader model 3.0 support...but it's also two slots and sucks more power.

If two molex connectors and a double slot configuration don't bother you the 6800Ultra is awesome. The XTPE is just as fast (excluding opengl) and if you can find one, it's a great card too.

Just grab whichever one you find at a reasonable price first...
 
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