To upgrade or

[Outlaw85]

I'm known to be cheap, and when it comes to computers, I want to have new hardware but not pay some of the ridiculous prices they are listed for.

My dilemma

Current system
Monitor- P2350 Samsung 23" 1080p
CPU- q9450 (stock)
Cooler- H50 corsair
Mobo- 680i evga
RAM- 4x2gb ocz platinum
GFX- 2x 8800gts 640mb evga
HDD- 1x 1tb wd green os, 2x 2tb wd green
Optical- LG Bluray player and DVD burner
PSU- 800w Corsair GS
Case- CM Centurion 590

I want to downsize to mATX at the largest and prefer m-ITX.


i7 upgrade - potential cost; 500ish
Was looking to possibly do m-ITX with i7-2600s. And no, I do not plan to OC. but this would be a few hundred just for the cpu/mobo, plus I would need ram, hs/f, case and slim dvd (in some cases).

9450 change - potential cost; 100ish
Was looking for 775 m-ITX boards and there is still a few around for a decent price. The q9450 seems to still hold its own for as old as it is. I would still need to buy a case.

Case for either m-ITX build will likely be the CM Elite 120

I am going to "upgrade" from my 8800s sli to a gtx 295 to get an sli performance from a single slot. This will likely be regardless of mobo purchased. Co-worker has one for a price I can't argue with.

My uses;
Gaming - Sims 3, Sim City 4, CS:All, SR3, Farcry 2, Anno 2070 and prob a few others.
Browsing
HTPC - Played through DVI - HDMI on 51" tv @ 720p (tv limitation).

Overall, I don't see too many issues, but games like Anno do hit my pc pretty hard. I'm confident its because of the GPU/s. While the i7 upgrade cost is not particularly an issue, I don't want to spend it on something unnecessary. I could put this to upgrading HDD space or overall ftp server I have wanted to build. If i get the i7, the q9450 could be used for ftp but the cost would restrict me from adding HDD space...

Also, is there a better case I could use? The CM Elite 120 seems to be the best of both worlds, compact yet roomy enough for my current hardware and newer gfx cards. For a new mobo/cpu/ram option, AMD is not out of the question but itx boards seem to be scarce.

Case options so far.
m-ITX- CM Elite 120
m-ATX- Xigmatek GIGAS Series CCC-MD26TA-U01

I'm in Milwaukee, WI. There is not a Microcenter near by.

Any help is appreciated,
Outlaw

 

[bigted]

i would say that if you go with mATX, you would at least have the option to go SLi/Crossfire in the future, which it sounds like for you upgrading at around 5 or 6 years would be kind of attractive.

of course 775 is going to be cheap way to go, you could pick up a mini-itx board on the FS/T forums for like $50. does your h50 fit in the cases you are looking at?

If you are upgrading to i7 and not overclocking, the stock heatsink will work out fine for you.

also, make sure the 295 will definitely fit your case before you buy it, a lot of itx cases won't accommodate that large of a card.

 

[Eureka!]

If you are cheap, why are you upgrading? The q9450 is still a competitive CPU, and if you overclock you'll be able to keep up with modern games for another few years. You can probably find a 775 mATX/mITX board for around $30-50 if you look hard enough, if you must have a smaller system.

Forget the 295, it's a bloated card for today. Unless you get it for practically free ($100 or less), you'd be better off buying a GTX 660 or 7870. Both cards come with smaller PCBs (the 660 is really small!), less heat and smaller power requirements, all of which are benefits to a small system. And they perform either as well or better than a 295.

A few small form factor cases you should look at as well are the Bitfenix Prodigy and the Silverstone FT03. Those will hold video cards up to 11", I believe. However, do realize that no matter what SFF case you go with, you will have to change the power supply unless yours is already a small size.

At this point, your most cost effective option is to get a new motherboard and case, and then your GPU and PSU to fit. There is no point in getting a 3770K for gaming (at most you would want a 3570K), and either way you're not upgrading to a massively fast card. Secondly, spend the money on a SSD for your OS, there is a 250GB Samsung 840 for $150 at Newegg, and that is much better for your system than that Green drive, which is probably the biggest bottleneck on your computer already. Much more worthwhile for you than an ivy bridge processor.

 

[Outlaw85]

i would say that if you go with mATX, you would at least have the option to go SLi/Crossfire in the future, which it sounds like for you upgrading at around 5 or 6 years would be kind of attractive.

of course 775 is going to be cheap way to go, you could pick up a mini-itx board on the FS/T forums for like $50. does your h50 fit in the cases you are looking at?

If you are upgrading to i7 and not overclocking, the stock heatsink will work out fine for you.

also, make sure the 295 will definitely fit your case before you buy it, a lot of itx cases won't accommodate that large of a card.

Thanks for the reply. The mATX makes sense. There is actually a decent case I had looked at too. The Xigmatek GIGAS Series CCC-MD26TA-U01. If I did that it would open a lot more options also for mobos to use. With the i7 I was looking at, it was listed in the FS section with an ITX and enough hdd headers.

With the 775 ITX also here on the FS section, there is only 2 sata headers leaving me with a 2TB floating in the wind. The savings would allow me to transfer my current full atx board to a dif case and build the file server. Buying the i7, I could do the same, just no additional HDDs could be purchased.

At this point, both cases on the top of my list would support the 10.4" gtx 295. Otherwise the next card in my budget was a gtx 470 that would fit some of the smaller cases.

I can't say I have a lot of interest in it. I have dabbled a bit with my old e6600 and very little with the 9450. With the i7-2600s, there isn't any OC because its power saver cpu at only 65w which was perfect for the mini build. If I get the larger case, OC could be more of a potential if it's needed. I havent looked to see if the 1155 and 1156 are the same mount points, but I would have to replace the cooler. Aside from that, it should fit. As a backup, I do have an intel HS/F that would work.

If you are cheap, why are you upgrading? The q9450 is still a competitive CPU, and if you overclock you'll be able to keep up with modern games for another few years. You can probably find a 775 mATX/mITX board for around $30-50 if you look hard enough, if you must have a smaller system.

Forget the 295, it's a bloated card for today. Unless you get it for practically free ($100 or less), you'd be better off buying a GTX 660 or 7870. Both cards come with smaller PCBs (the 660 is really small!), less heat and smaller power requirements, all of which are benefits to a small system. And they perform either as well or better than a 295.

A few small form factor cases you should look at as well are the Bitfenix Prodigy and the Silverstone FT03. Those will hold video cards up to 11", I believe. However, do realize that no matter what SFF case you go with, you will have to change the power supply unless yours is already a small size.

At this point, your most cost effective option is to get a new motherboard and case, and then your GPU and PSU to fit. There is no point in getting a 3770K for gaming (at most you would want a 3570K), and either way you're not upgrading to a massively fast card. Secondly, spend the money on a SSD for your OS, there is a 250GB Samsung 840 for $150 at Newegg, and that is much better for your system than that Green drive, which is probably the biggest bottleneck on your computer already. Much more worthwhile for you than an ivy bridge processor.

I am cheap, but I know at some point, I will have to upgrade to continue gaming. With the 9450 being a competitive cpu, that is partly where my dilemma is. Is the i7-2600s enough of a boost to warrant the 500 dollar upgrade or just keep it and do the ITX/ATX with 295 build allowing me to build the file server. I have only really searched here for ITXs and found a couple possibilites at/under $50.

The GTX 295 I would be getting for $50. The 660 and 7870 being ~$200 depending on deal, is too much. If I were looking at those, I would be looking for a whole system build.

I was looking at the i7-2600s for the power savings and price found at. I would pair it with the 295 because it's so cheap and upgrade that when the 5xx or 6xx come down for a real upgrade. Based off the loose research and reviews available, the GTX 295 is about on par with the GTX 470 although it is sucking more power due to the dual cards. My 8800's sli is slightly behind a GTX 460. This is only when looking at fps to fps, not factoring efficiencies and power savings the new cards have. The 470 has a farily good lead over the 460 768MB or 1GB.

The Bitfenix is a pretty cool case. Need to find the black one though. lol The silverstone is nice but out of the budget I am willing to spend on a case.

I agree with the HDD. When my original WD blue drive failed, it was the next smallest HDD I had on hand. Just been too lazy/cheap to replace it. Now seems like a good time for that. lol With some cleaning up, I could probably fit everything into a 250GB. For the $150, I could get a 500GB raptor. Or even the WD Black 1TB for $100 or 500GB for $85. Unfortunately space is a factor for me.

My Win7 score for what its worth (as of 12/23/12)
CPU- 7.2
RAM- 7.2
GFX- 6.8
HDD- 5.9


I was just looking to getting outsiders opinion on how they would do it. At home, there is no interest in what I'm doing other than "whats it cost". My co-worker who I've been talking to has the same opinion as me which doesn't help. lol


Per anandtechs review- http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/51?vs=287. The 2600K (not the S I was looking at) looks to go back and forth with the 9450.. Maybe I was expecting too much from a cpu upgrade?

Thanks so far. Any more is greatly appreciated.
Outlaw

 

[Eureka!]

Don't upgrade the CPU. There's not a gigantic boost for gaming going from a Q9450 to a i5/i7. Definitely attempt to overclock it. It is not worth a $500 upgrade.

The SSD is a must if you want your day-to-day performance to increase. Save the money from a i7 build, buy a larger 3TB HDD and a $150 250GB Samsung 840. You'll thank yourself for this.

Bitfenix comes in black, and will fit really large GPUs. Factor in the cost of a small modular PSU (around $70).

If I were in your situation, and really wanted a small form build, I would get a PCI-e SATA expansion board. Use that for the extra SATA ports. The prodigy should be able to fit 3 HDDs and another 3 SSDs, if I remember correctly. Attach the hard drives to the expansion, use the motherboard ports for the SSD.

Do not pay for a Raptor. Either go SSD or go home.

 

[Dangman]

It would help if you answered the stickied "ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS FIRST!" so that we can help you better.

At this point, both cases on the top of my list would support the 10.4" gtx 295. Otherwise the next card in my budget was a gtx 470 that would fit some of the smaller cases.

Don't bother with either of those cards as those cards ran pretty damn hot AND used up a significant amount of power compared to newer cards these days. I would look at the GTX 660 if you want to stick with Nvidia. Not to mention that the GTX 295 only has 896MB of VRAM per GPU. As such, you will have to upgrade that sooner than later since many games these days can easily exceed 1GB of VRAM usage let alone 896MB. And we're not even talking about the VRAM that Windows 7/8 uses. Then there's the potential issue of lack of updated drivers for that card considering its age.

I havent looked to see if the 1155 and 1156 are the same mount points, but I would have to replace the cooler.

LGA 1155 and LGA 1156 use the same mount points.

I was looking at the i7-2600s for the power savings and price found at.

If gaming is the heaviest duty thing you're doig with this PC, little point in getting the i7 2600s at all since current games do not take major advantage of the i7's HT feature. As such, for most current games, you'll be fine with the Core i5 3470 (if not overclocking) or Core i5 3570K (if overclocking). In addition, the idle power usage between the i7 2600s, i7 2600K, and even the Core i5s are virtually the same give or take 1-2W. It's only at load where you'll notice a difference and even then that's only a 10W to 12W difference at max. Considering that the load difference is mainly due to the lower clock of the S series CPUs, you'll more than likely end up using more power in the long-run since the CPU has to run at load longer to complete the task.

So unless that i7 2600s is significantly cheaper than the $188 Core i5 3470 or the $220 Core i5 3570K, don't bother with that CPU.

Per anandtechs review- http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/51?vs=287. The 2600K (not the S I was looking at) looks to go back and forth with the 9450.. Maybe I was expecting too much from a cpu upgrade?

No that's because you're not reading that review right. Some of the those bars notes that "lower is better" and some of those bars are "higher is better". As such, there's really not much of a back and forth

 

[Eureka!]

It would help if you answered the stickied "ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS FIRST!" so that we can help you better.


Don't bother with either of those cards as those cards ran pretty damn hot AND used up a significant amount of power compared to newer cards these days. I would look at the GTX 660 if you want to stick with Nvidia. Not to mention that the GTX 295 only has 896MB of VRAM per GPU. As such, you will have to upgrade that sooner than later since many games these days can easily exceed 1GB of VRAM usage let alone 896MB. And we're not even talking about the VRAM that Windows 7/8 uses. Then there's the potential issue of lack of updated drivers for that card considering its age.


LGA 1155 and LGA 1156 use the same mount points.



If gaming is the heaviest duty thing you're doig with this PC, little point in getting the i7 2600s at all since current games do not take major advantage of the i7's HT feature. As such, for most current games, you'll be fine with the Core i5 3470 (if not overclocking) or Core i5 3570K (if overclocking). In addition, the idle power usage between the i7 2600s, i7 2600K, and even the Core i5s are virtually the same give or take 1-2W. It's only at load where you'll notice a difference and even then that's only a 10W to 12W difference at max. Considering that the load difference is mainly due to the lower clock of the S series CPUs, you'll more than likely end up using more power in the long-run since the CPU has to run at load longer to complete the task.

So unless that i7 2600s is significantly cheaper than the $188 Core i5 3470 or the $220 Core i5 3570K, don't bother with that CPU.


No that's because you're not reading that review right. Some of the those bars notes that "lower is better" and some of those bars are "higher is better". As such, there's really not much of a back and forth

Given he's getting the 295 for $50, it's hard to pass up. He could just flip that for a profit as is.

To pair a Q9450 and a 295 is fair, and it's the cheapest option he can get now. The case and PSU will be items he can keep for a later build. For mid-level gaming, a Q9450 and a 295 will be able to handle the majority of games now at very high settings, with the exception of the latest and greatest. And I believe the 295 has 1.8GB of memory, not 0.8 GB. You must be thinking of the GTX260. The 295 is hcomparable to the 660, just with dual-gpus.

However, now that I think about it, OP, you may have some difficulties with the build. The Prodigy will only fit small power supplies (less than 140mm in length), and those are usually lower rated. However, you can extend that to fit a larger one with an adapter, and you will need a minimum of 500W (much more comfortable with a 600W) PSU for a Q9450 and a 295.

 

[Outlaw85]

It would help if you answered the stickied "ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS FIRST!" so that we can help you better.


Don't bother with either of those cards as those cards ran pretty damn hot AND used up a significant amount of power compared to newer cards these days. I would look at the GTX 660 if you want to stick with Nvidia. Not to mention that the GTX 295 only has 896MB of VRAM per GPU. As such, you will have to upgrade that sooner than later since many games these days can easily exceed 1GB of VRAM usage let alone 896MB. And we're not even talking about the VRAM that Windows 7/8 uses. Then there's the potential issue of lack of updated drivers for that card considering its age.


LGA 1155 and LGA 1156 use the same mount points.



If gaming is the heaviest duty thing you're doig with this PC, little point in getting the i7 2600s at all since current games do not take major advantage of the i7's HT feature. As such, for most current games, you'll be fine with the Core i5 3470 (if not overclocking) or Core i5 3570K (if overclocking). In addition, the idle power usage between the i7 2600s, i7 2600K, and even the Core i5s are virtually the same give or take 1-2W. It's only at load where you'll notice a difference and even then that's only a 10W to 12W difference at max. Considering that the load difference is mainly due to the lower clock of the S series CPUs, you'll more than likely end up using more power in the long-run since the CPU has to run at load longer to complete the task.

So unless that i7 2600s is significantly cheaper than the $188 Core i5 3470 or the $220 Core i5 3570K, don't bother with that CPU.


No that's because you're not reading that review right. Some of the those bars notes that "lower is better" and some of those bars are "higher is better". As such, there's really not much of a back and forth

Sorry, I did see the sticky after posting and my post did cover everything from what I could tell, just not in a Q/A form.

With the 295 being as cheap as it is and out performing it as much as it did from the 45seconds I tested on this rig in CSS (yes I know... lol). The 295 wont be much more power if any compared to my sli 8800s. Per here- http://www.hwcompare.com/5150/geforce-8800-gts-g80-640mb-vs-geforce-gtx-295/. My second 8800 would probably put it up near the 295s power range. It also has an extra 256MB ram per card more than the 8800s.

Makes sense on the S series power. It was listed for 275 with itx mobo. The K series is listed as a 95W and the S was a 65W. The i5 3570K looks like it would be the logical choice. I didn't see the 3470K listed but the 3470 was 200 and the 3570 was 230. To have the OC ability pending motherboard, would be worth it down the road if needed.

And... whoops on my part reading that review. That prob means it is time for bed (3rd shifter here).

Given he's getting the 295 for $50, it's hard to pass up. He could just flip that for a profit as is.

To pair a Q9450 and a 295 is fair, and it's the cheapest option he can get now. The case and PSU will be items he can keep for a later build. For mid-level gaming, a Q9450 and a 295 will be able to handle the majority of games now at very high settings, with the exception of the latest and greatest. And I believe the 295 has 1.8GB of memory, not 0.8 GB. You must be thinking of the GTX260. The 295 is hcomparable to the 660, just with dual-gpus.

However, now that I think about it, OP, you may have some difficulties with the build. The Prodigy will only fit small power supplies (less than 140mm in length), and those are usually lower rated. However, you can extend that to fit a larger one with an adapter, and you will need a minimum of 500W (much more comfortable with a 600W) PSU for a Q9450 and a 295.

For the most part, I usually game at 720p as of now due to settings I want and fps games become too small and cause eye strain for me. I would keep the 800w Corsair I have now for the new/ish build. The 295 has 896ram per card. The 295 is an SLI card that uses single pci.

I was considering these cases also
For m-ITX- CM Elite 120
For m-ATX- Xigmatek GIGAS Series CCC-MD26TA-U01

I may end up just using my current case, the CM Centurion 590 at least until I found something else.

775 build potential;
Xigmatek GIGAS (mATX for future build) ($70)
itx 775 board (~$40)
Q9450 ($0)
DDR2 RAM ($0)
WD Black 500GB ($85)
Optical ($0)
800w PSU ($0)
GTX 295 ($50)
Total- ~$245

i5 build potential;
i5-3570 ($230 new)
ASRock Z77 Extreme4-M ($140) OR MSI Z77MA-G45 ($95)
DDR3 16GB kit (~$100)
WD Black 500GB ($85)
GTX 295 ($50)
Xigmatek GIGAS($70)
Total- ~$675 round to the worst case scenario.


To me, that is a big difference. Although, this build i have now is the upgrade i did a couple years ago.
from e6600 to q9450 (after lucky bios flash)
from 2gb to 8gb
added 2nd 8800gts
upgraded to BR player

Thanks again for all the input so far!
Outlaw

 

[Dangman]

And I believe the 295 has 1.8GB of memory, not 0.8 GB. You must be thinking of the GTX260.

No I'm not. Remember that the GTX 295 is a dual-GPU video card. As such, the VRAM for those cards listed as the combined amount, not the amount limited per GPU.

Sorry, I did see the sticky after posting and my post did cover everything from what I could tell, just not in a Q/A form.

Nope you did not: You did not answer question 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 in your initial post.

Makes sense on the S series power. It was listed for 275 with itx mobo. The K series is listed as a 95W and the S was a 65W. The i5 3570K looks like it would be the logical choice. I didn't see the 3470K listed but the 3470 was 200 and the 3570 was 230. To have the OC ability pending motherboard, would be worth it down the road if needed.

There's no such thing as the 3470K. The only unlocked Intel CPUs for socket LGA 1155 are the Core 3570K, Core i5 2500K, Core i7 2600K, or Core i7 3770K.

 

[Eureka!]

No I'm not. Remember that the GTX 295 is a dual-GPU video card. As such, the VRAM for those cards listed as the combined amount, not the amount limited per GPU.

Ah, I've never had a dual-GPU card. That is quite the limiting factor. However, since he only games at 720P, he can get by on it.

Quite honestly, if you're not ready to upgrade it all, just get the 295 and the storage for now. Don't bother with a new case or motherboard, if you're sure you'll be upgrading sooner rather than later.

However, I am quite adamant that the Q9450 should be good for gaming for another 2 years or so. It will show its age already in the newest games, particularly BF3 multiplayer, but for most other games you'll still be bottlenecked graphically.

 

[Outlaw85]

3) Which country do you live in? If the U.S, please tell us the state and city if possible.
Sorry, just stated City/State. I'm in USA, Milwaukee, WI

I'm in Milwaukee, WI. There is not a Microcenter near by.

6) Will you be overclocking?
stated no OC

...-2600s. And no, I do not plan to OC. but this would...

7) What is the max resolution of your monitor? What size is it?
Under system spec

Current system
Monitor- P2350 Samsung 23" 1080p

8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
Sorry, sooner is better. Using some of tax returns..

9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? eSATA? Onboard video (as a backup or main GPU)? UEFI? etc.
Sorry, standard board. Don't need all the bells and whistles. Minimum 2 SATA, 1 PCIe x16 (2 on mATX), USB 3 nice but not requirement, IG not necessary

10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit?
32/64 bit Win7 Home Prem


I would love to upgrade it all, unfortunately priorities always win (here at least). And, I'm not sure I will be upgrading later. The build/upgrade now would be for another 2-3yrs hopefully. What I have left if anything may get sold to my brother, but my build for me is first.

And sorry, i did misunderstand the 3470/3570 info. Thanks for clarification. All the different in minor ways i-processors gets confusing.


Thanks again,
Outlaw