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Thoughts on Engineering samples via E-bay?

A

aphexcoil

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
322
I was looking at E-bay earlier tonight and noticed this listing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Xeon-...6-threads-LGA2011-3-22nm-135W-US/271881354805

That is a Xeon E5-2667 v3 CPU going for a little over $500 (which seems too good to be true).

For the price, that's a pretty beefy processor. Has anyone ever purchased an ES Xeon or other CPU from Ebay? What were your experiences? Are they generally reliable for home / workstation use?

Edit: Are these even legal to purchase / own?
 
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You'd be lucky if the motherboard boots up with an ES cpu installed, ES cpus are property of Intel Corporation and are not supposed to be sold. As such the seller has no legal right to sell such a cpu and Intel has mandated that any motherboard maker can not support an ES cpu or face a loss of access to ES cpus to make a Bios work with an Intel cpu. The price looks good, but do you really want to buy a cpu that may never work and that has no support?

I don't.

BTW: ES means Engineering Sample.
 
Edit: Are these even legal to purchase / own?
Click to expand...

Sure they are (what they going to do ? arrest you for buying it lol).....can't speak for modern sockets but i have heard many using them in older sockets...i would think if you board works with that particular xeon it be no problem....i would research to see if others have used it in your board like any other cpu.....nothing more
I have heard they sometimes don't over clock as good as non ES versions....could be just blind luck as well.....I probably wouldn't mess with them unless the price was pretty awesome cause there's always more unknowns with them

edit: looks like a decent price compared to 5960...i can see why your interested:)
 
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primetime said:
what they going to do ? arrest you for buying it lol
Click to expand...

It's a civil matter so no however Intel could demand the return of the CPU and no purchaser would be able to refuse because they purchased KNOWING it was ES and still therefore belonged to Intel, if that happened you would lose your money and a court of equity wouldn't help you sue the seller either (clean hands doctrine).
 
JokerCPoC said:
You'd be lucky if the motherboard boots up with an ES cpu installed, ES cpus are property of Intel Corporation and are not supposed to be sold. As such the seller has no legal right to sell such a cpu and Intel has mandated that any motherboard maker can not support an ES cpu or face a loss of access to ES cpus to make a Bios work with an Intel cpu. The price looks good, but do you really want to buy a cpu that may never work and that has no support?

I don't.

BTW: ES means Engineering Sample.
Click to expand...

Huh? While ES samples are not what they used to be, there was a time when they were cherry picked and prized possessions. I remember my Q9650 ES was a beast, 4.5ghz. Be lucky to have one boot? You have never owned an ES have you?
 
ES are not legal to sell.
A thread about this issue
https://communities.intel.com/thread/26542

More info
http://www.techspot.com/news/46902-engineers-arrested-for-selling-sample-cpus-on-ebay.html
Engineering sample CPUs, typically designated by Intel Confidential and ES markings are considered beta versions that are used for in-house testing, compatibility qualification, used as demonstrations or sent to media outlets for evaluation purposes. These processors are often times sent out to various outlets ahead of commercial releases with those on the receiving end having to sign non-disclosure agreements and either return the chip or agree not to sell it after initial testing.

Sample processors usually represent what will eventually come to market but there are some rare exceptions. Furthermore these chips aren’t quite as desirable as they once were. Engineering samples of earlier Intel chips like the Pentium 4 were highly sought after because they featured an unlocked multiplier which made overclocking much easier.

The CIB is urging potential buyers to steer clear of ES processors on eBay and further reminding engineers and those with connections to avoid running similar schemes as they could face up to five years in prison.
Click to expand...
 
aphexcoil said:
Edit: Are these even legal to purchase / own?
Click to expand...
ES chips are not supposed to be sold, according to the agreements the recipients have with the chipmakers. It's not "illegal" to purchase those. It's funny that many years ago it would have been possible to receive an ES CPU in a new PC after the stepping was blessed by the manufacturer in an ECN. Small chance, but still one.

I would be careful when buying one. Depending on the stepping, there could be bugs in the chips that do not exist in shipping versions. Do a search on Google with the Q code (not shown in the listing you posted) and double check that it's a shipping stepping, or there's an ECN on the Q code promoting it to an sSpec. If it's a final version of the chip it could turn out to be a good deal.
 
pxc said:
ES chips are not supposed to be sold, according to the agreements the recipients have with the chipmakers. It's not "illegal" to purchase those. It's funny that many years ago it would have been possible to receive an ES CPU in a new PC after the stepping was blessed by the manufacturer in an ECN. Small chance, but still one.

I would be careful when buying one. Depending on the stepping, there could be bugs in the chips that do not exist in shipping versions. Do a search on Google with the Q code (not shown in the listing you posted) and double check that it's a shipping stepping, or there's an ECN on the Q code promoting it to an sSpec. If it's a final version of the chip it could turn out to be a good deal.
Click to expand...

Thanks! This is solid advice.
 
If it is illegal to sell es cpu's, then eBay should not allow anyone to post a listing to sell one.
Shocking Intel has not tried stopping eBay es CPU listings.
 
Their a hit or miss. My brother has bought at least 1 that I know of and it works great. Be leery of super cheap ES chips from China.
 
I suppose the only angle that one could consider ES processors to not be legal to buy and sell is that they are technically "loaned", and are subject to nondisclosure agreements. This does not, however, make them illegal to buy or sell. With rare exception, manufacturers do not ask for such sample parts back. This holds true in industries beyond semiconductors. For example, automotive companies and suppliers send samples all of the time to tooling manufacturers so machines can be tested on production parts. Almost all of the time, such sample parts are inconsequential to the manufacturer and as such they are typically disposed of by the tooling maker. Sometimes the parts are scrapped for their metal value, and other times they end up in a landfill.

Intel sends out mostly functional ES chips to OEM's so they can be used to test motherboards, memory, etc. They are not going to ask for these parts back, and as long as it is after public release I can't really see any harm in these parts making their way into the general public's hands. I still own an ES C2D E6300 that kicks major ass. During that era, ES chips were all over the place and were a hot commodity. It is interesting that I don't see nearly as many anymore. Possibly Intel has cracked down on the OEM's that receive them, so now they are being destroyed or returned. The other possibility is that they are no longer cherry picked, so not desirable like they used to be.
 
ES samples are fine IF They are last or almost last revision.

I have owned 2 ES samples for laptops and they run just fine and work great but I bought late/last samples. If you get early ES samples you may get a glitchy brick or be ok. Buying ES samples you must know what revision it is and if thats the last or 2nd to last revision.

The last few revisions have very small changes so they all should work fine but early samples can be complete shit.
 
Bios revision, stepping and board mfr are key to getting an ES chip to work, Asus seems to work best in my experience but others have said good things about supermicro.

I got a pair of 12 core 2692v2 for £933 from china - they have been working 24/7 for the last year
 
Nathan_P said:
Bios revision, stepping and board mfr are key to getting an ES chip to work, Asus seems to work best in my experience but others have said good things about supermicro.

I got a pair of 12 core 2692v2 for £933 from china - they have been working 24/7 for the last year
Click to expand...

holy smoke those are normally about 3k apiece new right? I bet that pc is a real workhorse;)
 
I have also been very interested in grabbing some Xeon ES chips to save on 2P systems. If you are willing to take the risk on something that can be taken by Intel at any time they want, it is still a pretty decent deal.
 
primetime said:
holy smoke those are normally about 3k apiece new right? I bet that pc is a real workhorse;)
Click to expand...

They ain't cheap at retail, in the UK they would be about £1.5k each

I haven't used it much - it is one of my F@H machines from back when 2p and 4p systems ruled the roost so it just sits there folding. My daily machine is a 2p x5670 atm although I do feel an upgrade itch for later this year
 
I personally think ES is a "brown bag special". Sometimes you'll get lucky and get a great overclocker. Sometimes you'll get a chip that isn't spec'd like the retail version. An example, I was reading on the Xeon X58 thread on OCN and a guy picked up an ES X5660 that showed in CPU-Z to be a 4 core. If their priced accordingly they are definitely tempting though!
 
TheSocialHermit said:
I have also been very interested in grabbing some Xeon ES chips to save on 2P systems. If you are willing to take the risk on something that can be taken by Intel at any time they want, it is still a pretty decent deal.
Click to expand...

I'm still a bit confused on what mechanism Intel would use to "take" an ES back from a consumer that purchased it through eBay. Wouldn't they have to sue the individual or seek some type of court order (depending on jurisdiction of the consumer). I've never heard of it and it would be HORRIBLE PR for Intel.

The only possible scenario I could see would be very early samples where Intel is worried about their intellectual property, but once something is actually at the manufacturing stage (basically a final production CPU) that risk is gone.

It just ain't gonna happen. They might go after sellers but folks buying individual CPU's? No way.
 
I bought an old P4 system from a second hand store some years ago and was surprised to find it had an ES CPU in it. Unfortunately two of the pins got stuck in the socket and broke off when I was trying to remove it and clean the board, hence it's now unusable.

I did some brief testing with it before I took the machine apart and it seemed a bit unstable. But whether it was the CPU itself or some other component in the machine, I'll never know.
 
I have had 14 E5 V3 ES processors in the past few months.
all 14 core QEY7's.

no boot issues, or any other issues to speak of.
I would not hesitate to buy them again.

Retail is overrated and overpriced.

Just be safe and purchase from a reputable vendor and do your research and made sure you have a compatible mobo.
 
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grambo said:
I'm still a bit confused on what mechanism Intel would use to "take" an ES back from a consumer that purchased it through eBay. Wouldn't they have to sue the individual or seek some type of court order (depending on jurisdiction of the consumer). I've never heard of it and it would be HORRIBLE PR for Intel.

The only possible scenario I could see would be very early samples where Intel is worried about their intellectual property, but once something is actually at the manufacturing stage (basically a final production CPU) that risk is gone.

It just ain't gonna happen. They might go after sellers but folks buying individual CPU's? No way.
Click to expand...

Intel would send you a letter requesting the return of their property. If you didn't return their property to them they'd sue you. You could theoretically be charged with receiving stolen property which is a misdemeanor, but for one CPU that's not that likely. I actually know someone who was convincted of receiving stolen property and let me tell you it was a lot more blatant and obvious. It's unlikely this is going to ever happen, but just because it's not likely you'll get caught doesn't mean you should be doing it.

Back to the main point, what you're paying for in these cases are stolen CPUs. It's not ethical to buy stolen property regardless of the discount. It doesn't matter if they work or not.
 
I want to know more about these ES samples.

$400 for a 6core i7 or $400 for an 8core+ xeon. Are there other threads covering this? I've found some old ones on reddit showing 100% load with some problems.

I'd like to know what I'm getting myself into because it feels as if I need specific MOBO's to run these ES chips along with ECC memory. Is it a lot of trial and error?
 
Its a crap shoot, end of.
You never know what you are getting unless you know the person selling it to you, trust them explicitly and they have the knowledge, experience and willpower to fully test it.
 
Saki630 said:
I want to know more about these ES samples.

$400 for a 6core i7 or $400 for an 8core+ xeon. Are there other threads covering this? I've found some old ones on reddit showing 100% load with some problems.

I'd like to know what I'm getting myself into because it feels as if I need specific MOBO's to run these ES chips along with ECC memory. Is it a lot of trial and error?
Click to expand...

Don't buy an ES chip unless you are willing to deal with potential issues. Chances are they will work fine, however I think you will find a lot of people buying ES chips have multiple PCs so potential issues on one isn't a huge deal.
 
ES chips most well for most tasks. After trying a Q19D which i got for a steal, worked fine on my RIVBE. Passed Prime95 and OCCT. But i could never activate VT-d on VMWare nor on the BIOS, it always reset to OFF after a reboot. That was the reason i was forced to buy a Retail E5-2670 w/ C2 stepping (C1's still gave issues with virtualization).

My 2c: Buy an ES CPU only for non-critical systems. They may work perfectly fine for most end-user tasks, but some of the enterprise features (the only reason you'd buy a Xeon after all) may not work.
 
I've read some more stuff thanks to a member sending me to his thread on Xsystem. He purchased at least 6 of these babies and has some 14 or 18 cores on the way.

In the thread he shares that upon a reboot he has to finesse the bios to get a processor to be stable. Another person says that 24/7 operation is no problem, but once you try and stop the current task that was going 100% and do something else the CPU will 'freeze' and you must restart.

I was informed Stepping 3 is what you want, but I dont think i'll ever use all these cores for what they were intended. I'll stay away.
 
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