Thoughts on an unusual SFF system..?

E

Eric_J

n00b
Joined
Mar 30, 2012
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10
Starting with this, to ensure I don't miss anything: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1589889

"What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming, Photoshop (or other intensive programs), Overclocking, Web browsing, strictly HTPC/Playback, etc."
Gateway, network file server, AP, etc. If I doubles as a desktop, that's a bonus.

"What's your budget?"
Flexible. Cost is not a driving factor.

"Where do you live?"
San Diego, CA. I have a Fry's nearby and all the usual office supply stores.

"What exact parts do you need for that budget?"
Case, PSU, motherboard, processor, memory, SSD(s?), HDDs, cards, antennas, and any related items that are identified.

"If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing?"
No part reuse.

"What specific features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? etc."
Required: Mini PCIe slot, GigE port, SATA 6GB/s, and DVI.
Bonuses: RAID 0/1/5/6, USB 3.0 (forward-compatibility), two (or more?) GigE ports, and HDMI.

"What resolution output do you need?"
Text console. If it doubles as a desktop, 1920x1080. Multiple would also be handy if it's acting as a desktop, but isn't critical.

"Does this system need to fit into a particular space?"
It's replacing a wireless gateway/router/AP, so if it could fit up there on the upper part of my desk in the same area it'd be awesome. Roughly 10-12" deep, could be pretty wide, and not too tall (we have earthquakes) would be best. Keeping it up high is obviously better since it's going to act as an AP.

"How comfortable are you with custom case design/modification and electrical wiring?"
Quite. I have Screwdrivers/Leatherman, Drill, Dremel, Metal snips, and Soldering Iron from the list. I've built many computers and done custom mods, so I'm very comfortable with that.

"How important is the noise/silence of this sytem?"
Quieter is better, particularly when idle. In the course of my employment I built a machine with an i3-2120T (stock HSF), SSD, and picoPSU; it's silent. It could be a little louder when in use.

"How mobile does this system need to be?"
Stationary.

"Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit?"
Yes. Debian Linux or FreeBSD, 64-bit in either case.

"When do you plan on building/buying the PC?"
Between 2 weeks and 2 months, depending on when I find the spare time to order, assemble, and configure everything.

Here's what I have right now:
Case: Unknown. Would be drilling a few holes in the top for antennas. Kinda like the Lian Li Q25, but wish it took a smaller PSU (ATX is so enormous). Might end up with something like the Thermaltake Element Q.
Processor: i3-2120T (minimum), i5-2405S (possible, if also a desktop, to save power), or i5-2500K (definite overkill, but same price, might waste more power). Does anyone have Amp readings of different Intel processors on the same board under various loads?
Motherboard: Unknown. The most interesting motherboard I have seen (that is not available yet) is the Intel DH77DF (how I found this forum), followed distantly by the Zotac H67ITX-C-E. Asus doesn't seem to like mini PCIe, but maybe I've missed some of their boards. Open to slightly bigger than mini-ITX, but hoping for similar size and power consumption.
Memory: 8GB Low-power (Crucial CT2KIT51264BD160B)
SSD: 1 or 2 SSDs (striped if a pair)
HDDs: 2 2TB disks in an array (mirrored).
Cards: Dual-band 802.11N 3x3 (Intel 6300 or AR9380/9390) mini-PCIe, GigE card (single/dual/quad), and (optional) SATA PCIe card (if I go for even more disks in an array).

Any thoughts?
 
the DH77DF
has 5 sata (including 1x esata)
and 1 mpcie for wifi (presumably)
and 1 pcie

asus has a Z77-I deluxe
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1677993
has 6 sata (including 2x esata) [which you could easily route back in with esata -> sata cables]
and 1 mpcie slot including a wifi card and antennas built into the back i/o (no drilling needed)
(note even if you want to drop in your own wifi card, the antennas on the back of the io sure seem convenient)
and 1pcie

the Q25 looks great in my eyes.
the powersupply is one of the few things that should still be big... bigger fan = quieter, and if you look inside the thing... its not empty! being cramped is bad for heat and such... heat is bad for a psu... nuff said.



Definately wait for these chipsets and ivy bridge in general (late april?)
remember the largest (arguably) change is that mainstream quad core cpus will now be 77W TDP instead of 95W, but it sounds like your system will not be utlizing the cpu much... unless you also use it as a desktop.
 
Yeah, if you can wait for Ivy Bridge, I think your options will open up more.

Asus did have the P8H67-I Deluxe that included a mini-pcie slot, but those boards seem to have become rare in distribution channels. It is based on the H67 chipset but that is fine so long as you don't want to overclock. The mini-pcie wi-fi on board is an Atheros chip that includes the hookups for two antennas. I replaced that in my wife's with an Intel 6200 so that we could use 5 GHz wireless N. Sounds like you would want to want to add another antenna for your needs, but you've already said you are comfortable with that.

So... if you can wait for the Z77 boards, great. If not, it might be worth your time to find a supplier that still has an Asus P8H67-I Deluxe.

In terms of cases, I would at least consider the Silverstone SG-05 with either the 300W or 450W PSU. For my wife's, I swapped out the front fan with a PWM model. Especially during idle and low stress activities, the whole system is little more than a whisper.
 
Hi there

Since you are well equiped and can handle doing a few mods I would suggest you go a different route with the your case choice. The Q25 is way too big.

You could modify a SG05 or SG06 to take all those hard drives, another route would be to get shuttle since you dont appear to need an optical drive you is another option.


In the interests of efficiency you will want Ivy bridge and the latest chipset on a mini itx motherboard and the whole thing could be powered adequately with a pico psu

Regards

Joe
 
Another case to consider would be the Lian Li PC-Q11. It already has the mounting points for two 2.5" drives and two 3.5" drives that can all get along together. That could still leave room for a graphics card for the 3 monitor setup if desired, though I would shoot for one that only used a single slot. Pictures of how all of that fits together is available on page 2 of the Bit-Tech review of the case. http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/cases/2010/10/08/lian-li-pc-q11-mini-itx-case-review/2

Many builders here have used an SFX power supply adapter with that case just to afford some additional room. Those that want to go with ATX PSUs generally shoot for something that is 150mm long or less so as to not crowd the front fan. The Silverstone Strider Plus 500W has been popular because it is 140mm long and is modular. One complaint, though, is that it isn't as quiet as some other options. Another option, that gets discussed less due to fewer distributors, is the Nexus NX-500 Rev. 3 (530W). At 125 mm long, it is probably the shortest ATX PSU out there and it is supposedly pretty quiet (don't have one, so can't confirm). The downside is that it is not modular, but it shouldn't be too much of an issue to bundle unused cables and tuck them in a corner of the case. One U.S. source for that PSU is here: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=NX-5000_Rev_3.html
 
Last edited:
DesertCat said:
Yeah, if you can wait for Ivy Bridge, I think your options will open up more.

Asus did have the P8H67-I Deluxe that included a mini-pcie slot, but those boards seem to have become rare in distribution channels. It is based on the H67 chipset but that is fine so long as you don't want to overclock. The mini-pcie wi-fi on board is an Atheros chip that includes the hookups for two antennas. I replaced that in my wife's with an Intel 6200 so that we could use 5 GHz wireless N. Sounds like you would want to want to add another antenna for your needs, but you've already said you are comfortable with that.

So... if you can wait for the Z77 boards, great. If not, it might be worth your time to find a supplier that still has an Asus P8H67-I Deluxe.
Click to expand...

It's a great board and I'll be selling mine whenever the IB Asus itx boards are released ;)
 
Thank you for all the input! It kept me from taking the plunge too early...

Here's my new configuration:
  • Case: Lian-Li Q11. Beyond being just what I need, it looks to have enough space to double-stack 3.5" HDDs in the bottom if I construct a couple simple brackets that use the side holes on the drives. The SG05 was a strong second choice (and less expensive), but installing 4-6 drives in it would be more work and the wifi card/antennas would require far longer coax cables due to the distance to the top of the case.
  • PSU: Antec EarthWatts 380W. It seemed like a good idea to use a PSU that had a fan on the back and an intake on the surface opposite the back, rather than one with an intake above the CPU's HSF. This will avoid the risk of duelling fans and the spare wires can be packed out of the airflow route, which would be really bad in the Q11 case since the PSU is so close to the HSF. It's also 140mm deep.
  • Motherboard: DH77DF, since it has the best miniPCIe slot position and I have no reason to O/C this machine. The downside is that it only has 4 SATA ports and 1 eSATA.
  • CPU: Depends on the official Ivy Bridge announcement. Based on pre-release specs, one of the following: i7-3770S (HD4000 & 65W), i7-3770T (HD4000 & 45W?! Not sure I trust this spec.), or i5-3570T (HD2500, 45W). These dementedly-excessive processors will allow it to also handle photo processing of the images from my DSLR, in addition to the basic firewall/gateway/AP/file server functions.
  • RAM, SSDs, and HDDs: Same as above, but probably bumping to RAID5 on the HDDs if the controller can do it with two SATA and an eSATA drive.
  • NIC: Intel Pro/1000 CT. Apparently reasonably-priced dual-port and above NICs do not exist, so I'll just use a switch if I ever need to plug in more than one wired computer/device at a time (rare)...
  • Wifi: Atheros AR9380 half-height mini-PCIe card, 3 x 6" U.Fl to RP-SMA cables, and 3 x RP-SMA antennas. Just three holes to drill and a little basic assembly.

I'm looking forward to the release of the new processors...
 
Eric_J said:
Thank you for all the input! It kept me from taking the plunge too early...

Here's my new configuration:
  • Case: Lian-Li Q11. Beyond being just what I need, it looks to have enough space to double-stack 3.5" HDDs in the bottom if I construct a couple simple brackets that use the side holes on the drives. The SG05 was a strong second choice (and less expensive), but installing 4-6 drives in it would be more work and the wifi card/antennas would require far longer coax cables due to the distance to the top of the case.
  • PSU: Antec EarthWatts 380W. It seemed like a good idea to use a PSU that had a fan on the back and an intake on the surface opposite the back, rather than one with an intake above the CPU's HSF. This will avoid the risk of duelling fans and the spare wires can be packed out of the airflow route, which would be really bad in the Q11 case since the PSU is so close to the HSF. It's also 140mm deep.
  • Motherboard: DH77DF, since it has the best miniPCIe slot position and I have no reason to O/C this machine. The downside is that it only has 4 SATA ports and 1 eSATA.
  • CPU: Depends on the official Ivy Bridge announcement. Based on pre-release specs, one of the following: i7-3770S (HD4000 & 65W), i7-3770T (HD4000 & 45W?! Not sure I trust this spec.), or i5-3570T (HD2500, 45W). These dementedly-excessive processors will allow it to also handle photo processing of the images from my DSLR, in addition to the basic firewall/gateway/AP/file server functions.
  • RAM, SSDs, and HDDs: Same as above, but probably bumping to RAID5 on the HDDs if the controller can do it with two SATA and an eSATA drive.
  • NIC: Intel Pro/1000 CT. Apparently reasonably-priced dual-port and above NICs do not exist, so I'll just use a switch if I ever need to plug in more than one wired computer/device at a time (rare)...
  • Wifi: Atheros AR9380 half-height mini-PCIe card, 3 x 6" U.Fl to RP-SMA cables, and 3 x RP-SMA antennas. Just three holes to drill and a little basic assembly.

I'm looking forward to the release of the new processors...
Click to expand...

Looks pretty good. I hope you post your results with that Earthwatts 380 in the Q11. Given the front fan position, it just seems to make sense to have a straight-line cooling system through the PSU, but I hardly ever hear people doing that with this case.

My personal preference would be to use an Intel WiFi card over Atheros, but that's because I've replaced 2.4 GHz -only Atheros cards with dual band capable Intel ones. Looks like you've gone with something higher up in the Atheros line than what I have experience with. That said... :cool: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833106062
 
If it were me, I'd ditch the miniPCIe wireless (since you plan to use it as a server/nas, ect - wired is the way to go). Now if the miniPCIe slot is also miniSATA compatible like many other motherboards you can get a small miniSATA SSD for the OS and leave your sata ports for your raid array.

I've been considering building a Q25 NAS, and that is my plan if I pick a motherboard that has limited SATA ports but has a miniPCIe/miniSATA slot.
 
Topweasel said:
Have you looked at this case. Out at newegg but should be available elsewhere. Kind of spartan, but looks ready made for the job,

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811352019
Click to expand...
That does look really good, but I already ordered the Q11. I suspect the reason it's not terribly popular (and discontinued on newegg) is the fact that mini-ITX boards rarely have more than 4 SATA ports. For a NAS setup, it'd need to be dedicated just to NAS with a PCIe SATA card to really exploit all those 3.5" slots.

DesertCat said:
Looks pretty good. I hope you post your results with that Earthwatts 380 in the Q11. Given the front fan position, it just seems to make sense to have a straight-line cooling system through the PSU, but I hardly ever hear people doing that with this case.
Click to expand...
Will do. I was surprised by the incredible number of power supplies that have fans on their bottom surface. I generally use laptops personally and spec portable or rack-mounted systems at work, none of which use ATX power supplies. The closest to a full build I've done for personal purposes since 2003 was sticking some RAM and disks into a barebone Atom, so the world has changed a lot.

Then again, the fan placement makes perfect sense - ATX power supplies are generally placed at the top of the case and that's where heat builds up, so placing the largest fan possible on the largest surface available (and doesn't have wires obstructing flow) is good engineering.

My personal preference would be to use an Intel WiFi card over Atheros, but that's because I've replaced 2.4 GHz -only Atheros cards with dual band capable Intel ones. Looks like you've gone with something higher up in the Atheros line than what I have experience with. That said... :cool: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833106062
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's the exact Intel card I originally planned, but there are many reports that it won't work in AP mode under Linux. The AR9380 isn't very popular for some unknown reason (Qualcomm bought Atheros, but their product line has mysteriously mostly stagnated since then.), and all cards are simply copies of the reference design, but they're well supported in OSS (in spite of the HAL).

Diverge said:
If it were me, I'd ditch the miniPCIe wireless (since you plan to use it as a server/nas, ect - wired is the way to go).
Click to expand...
It's not simply a server/NAS. If it was, I agree that wired is the best solution. It's more of a consolidation of computing/network equipment into a single machine.
 
Eric_J said:
T
Yeah, that's the exact Intel card I originally planned, but there are many reports that it won't work in AP mode under Linux. The AR9380 isn't very popular for some unknown reason (Qualcomm bought Atheros, but their product line has mysteriously mostly stagnated since then.), and all cards are simply copies of the reference design, but they're well supported in OSS (in spite of the HAL).
Click to expand...

Cool. Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense.
 
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