this (dated) LCD guide claims IPS is the worst??

S

spincut

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
1,191
http://www.behardware.com/articles/498-4/lcd-screens-in-a-nutshell.html

It basically evals the display technologies circa 2004 and lauds IPS (and S-IPS which is already out) as the worst quality of the IPS VA and TN, saying it is the worst for gaming.

but on here everyone desires S-IPS panels for that very purpose and lauds them as the highest end tech, did something change since 2-3 years ago when this was written, or was this dude always just wrong?
 
as far as i know s-ips panels are better for picture quality and color reproduction rather than hardcore speed kinda of like the way ATI and Nvidia used to be..

TFT panels generally had better response time thus better for competitive gaming whereas s-ips panels were suited for better eye candy and pictures...


I could be wrong though
 
spincut said:
http://www.behardware.com/articles/498-4/lcd-screens-in-a-nutshell.html

It basically evals the display technologies circa 2004 and lauds IPS (and S-IPS which is already out) as the worst quality of the IPS VA and TN, saying it is the worst for gaming.

but on here everyone desires S-IPS panels for that very purpose and lauds them as the highest end tech, did something change since 2-3 years ago when this was written, or was this dude always just wrong?
Click to expand...

the problem is, so many people are keen to jump on the bandwagon of S-IPS being the best LCD technology around. The view that it is the best for gaming is pretty much based on the performance of one screen / one panel, the 6ms G2G AS-IPS panel in the NEC 20WGX2. Yes, that is a responsive panel, but there's far too much emphasis on S-IPS imo in some places.
 
but yet alot of people, for instance, really want the Dell S-IPS version, while i dont beleive it's the same S-IPS panel as that, instead of the S-PVA, if that's true, aside from the dishonesty, shouldnt the lottery not be a bad thing, or reversed even?
 
With the exception of a handful of new PVA panels, IPS is pretty much the only game in town for accurate color rendition and high contrast at all angles. TN, MVA and most PVA panels can't come close in this area. The other technologies will beat IPS in some image quality areas, but most of these benefits promptly disappear as soon as the panel is viewed off axis. PVA's black advantage isn't necessarily a good thing given that PVA images turn to low-contrast, miscolored, mud when viewed off axis.
 
Not to mention that many monitor makers grossly overestimate their "low response" times. Dell, while claiming only 16ms with the 2007wfp (s-ips), performs on par with many of the "xtreme gamerz" lcd's, and looks better to boot.
 
Overwind said:
With the exception of a handful of new PVA panels, IPS is pretty much the only game in town for accurate color rendition and high contrast at all angles. TN, MVA and most PVA panels can't come close in this area. The other technologies will beat IPS in some image quality areas, but most of these benefits promptly disappear as soon as the panel is viewed off axis. PVA's black advantage isn't necessarily a good thing given that PVA images turn to low-contrast, miscolored, mud when viewed off axis.
Click to expand...

I've been looking into the relative strengths of these panels in preparation to buy my first LCD, and I concur with this post. I will be buying S-IPS; however, some people really don't seem to be bothered with the viewing angle issue, which I was unable to get used to after viewing my first LCD up close, a TN panel I bought from Dell on Boxing Day (E228WFP). I had to send it back. I learned that speed is not a priority, viewing angle and color rendition are; thus my decision to go with S-IPS, or at least to avoid TN.
 
mset, which display did you finally go with? I am personally thinking of a Dell 2007WFP, because it's closer to the price of a TN panel, with viewing angles and color closer to a S-IPS panel, seems like a good solution. What do you think?
 
It's always seemed odd to me that people place so much emphasis on viewing angles - I always use my monitor from directly in front, why would you do anything else? It's like letting setting up a surround sound system and then sitting off-centre. If I move, I rotate the monitor.
 
Shortass said:
Not to mention that many monitor makers grossly overestimate their "low response" times. Dell, while claiming only 16ms with the 2007wfp (s-ips), performs on par with many of the "xtreme gamerz" lcd's, and looks better to boot.
Click to expand...

really? on one of the user reviews i read for it the person implicly said the monitor was the best (better than the LG204) "except" when it came to gaming, said it actually had ghosting issues (which i think is the same thing i hear said about the IPS).

of course his reasoning was a little odd, claiming that it was the low refresh rate causing the issue, and that if it "only had a 120hz" refresh rate like the LG 204 everything would be fine, but last i checked most LCD's, even the best has lower refresh rates and people generally dont complain about it being the cause of any problems.
 
Mysticode said:
mset, which display did you finally go with? I am personally thinking of a Dell 2007WFP, because it's closer to the price of a TN panel, with viewing angles and color closer to a S-IPS panel, seems like a good solution. What do you think?
Click to expand...

Bad idea. The Dell panel lottery means that the specifications you see in Dell advertising generally aren't the specifications of the monitor you receive. Dell likes people to think the 2007WFP is S-IPS, but pretty much all 2007WFPs shipped these days are actually S-PVA.
 
JDAdams said:
It's always seemed odd to me that people place so much emphasis on viewing angles - I always use my monitor from directly in front, why would you do anything else? It's like letting setting up a surround sound system and then sitting off-centre. If I move, I rotate the monitor.
Click to expand...

Each to their own, however:

With an S-IPS display I don't have to move the monitor every time I move my head.

With S-IPS I can do things like quickly check my email without needing to sit down in order to read the screen.

When I'm showing stuff to other people, they can look over my shoulder and actually see what I'm pointing out.

Regardless of where the user sits, narrow viewing angle displays have color shifts across their surface because the viewing angle between the user's eyes and the screen surface is not constant. This has a profound effect on color rendition.
 
Overwind said:
Bad idea. The Dell panel lottery means that the specifications you see in Dell advertising generally aren't the specifications of the monitor you receive. Dell likes people to think the 2007WFP is S-IPS, but pretty much all 2007WFPs shipped these days are actually S-PVA.
Click to expand...

From most of the lottery I am reading these days, the 2007WFP is more often a S-IPS than anything else. And I really have no problem playing the lottery too if I need to. Furthermore, I will be upgrading from a TN panel, so I doubt a MVA type panel will be inadequate for me, it's an upgrade from TN still.

My current monitor is a 15" Viewsonic LCD. 350:1 contrast, 210 cd/m² brightness, 1024 * 768 native, VGA input only, 0.3 mm pixel pitch (what exactly is pixel pitch, is 0.3mm bad?).
 
spincut said:
really? on one of the user reviews i read for it the person implicly said the monitor was the best (better than the LG204) "except" when it came to gaming, said it actually had ghosting issues (which i think is the same thing i hear said about the IPS).
Click to expand...

BeHardware, the very website that caused this thread, tested the response time of the IPS Dell 2007 and found it to be the best of the best. Its in one of their 20" widescreen reviews, along with the NEC 20wmgx2. I like their little racecar test. Did you know that I just spelled "racecar" backward? Did it again.
 
yeah but what does that mean then? i mean it's good it tested well, even with its grey to grey even being high, but it still makes that article they wrote evaluating the panels very odd, what with so many people wanting that one the most for everything including gaming. even though it';s about 3 years old all the panel techs they listed are still here (they mentioned advanced super ips as maybe making it less bad, but since that was about three years ago maybe that didnt end up happening).

Still just not sure why they would say that about IPS since it seems to be the most sought after panel right now.

also overwind you need to pay a little more attention, exactly what lottery have you been looking at that has shown dell shipping all PVA panels? so far everyone that posted in the hardocp thread for it this month has been all S-IPS from every manufacturing location (to the point where it may not matter what locale it has on the box).

and we all are aware of the folley of what dell did, no need to reexplain the issue with what they did, although it's not that they didn't ship monitors according to the specs they listed as you claim, just that they took the relevant spec off about the panel, the only thing suspect is the viewing angle, which someone actually brought up in their forums, so i'm surprised they kept it up since only listing the specs they could match with either panel is what has kept them from getting in real trouble whenever a user complained.
 
I didn't even read the article. I posted yesterday in another thread that BeHardware is the worst review site for monitors I have ever seen. They are either ignorant or on the take somewhow because they clearly have an ax to grind.
 
they are the only site though with a good gamut of monitor tests i actually care about, and focus on things i want to hear on. they also have an actual monitor section with a consistent survey of the good stuff.

but if you say they stink, is there another site with as comprehensive of coverage as theirs but without an "axe to grind"?
 
I have read monitor reviews in a lot of places the last 6 months and I can't say I have much regard for any of them. Specs are often a mess and one misquote gets repeated dozens of times. Most times you never even read if anything is S-IPS or PVA etc. That's nuts in my view. I heard "Tom's Hardware" was suppposed to be good but I don't think much of them anymore either - at least not for monitors (but they also did a review of an Asus mobo that had been posted in October but used a Bios that was pre C2D yet lamented errors that had already been fixed).

I read review sites but like forums better - especially after I can see who has actually been following monitors and can cut through the hype or get to facts. Some manufaturers and have real issues with components, input lag etc and despite widespread awareness and discussion of these in forums they never seem to get mentioned much on well known sites (who also take a lot of advertising). It's scandalous in my eyes really.

My fav sites for monitors is Xbit and another French site (BeHardware is French I think) called Les Numeriques. You have probably seen it because they do the photo comparisons of the different models ("Angles de vision" in menu) - an example (and keep in mind the menu give different comparisons):


http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=52&mo1=149&p1=1606&ma2=36&mo2=105&p2=1041&ph=6

I also like the read/search users at dcpreview because that's a more or less savy crowd for monitors (they have a computer forum) and also the specialty sites like Widescreen Gaming, Anandtech, Slashdot etc. Most of the specialty sites have some people who will know more and be more critical users who actually understand more of what's going on (and I dont consider myself one of these but at least I know that. I think a lot of reviewers don't know as much as they think they do either but are convinced otherwise).

Monitors are hard to gauge since there are a lot of different uses and budgets and its hard to see what they all can do. That's why I try to read from people who are better able to compare and are scientific be disposition and not just fans of this or that etc.
 
Although not good for actively reviewing all popular monitors, TrustedReviews.com has some fantastic reviews. Check out the one they have for the 24" BenQ, it rocks.
 
They only s-ips monitor I owned was the Dell 2001fp and I didn't own it for long. Spinach IMHO. :p Bad blacks, bad silk screen effect. I know though that others love it.
 
JDAdams said:
It's always seemed odd to me that people place so much emphasis on viewing angles - I always use my monitor from directly in front, why would you do anything else? It's like letting setting up a surround sound system and then sitting off-centre. If I move, I rotate the monitor.
Click to expand...

You don't have to move to have a problem. Even perfectly centered the tones change across the screen on PVA.

I bought a Dell 2007fp (4:3 model) way back before the lottery was known. I got a PVA. It color shifted really bad(I got rid of it). It actually gave additional fatigue/headaches and drove me nuts. If you are really sensitive as I am you get different shift in each eye and this creates a phony 3d/glare effect that can lead to headaches. This is caused by the difference in the image from difference in shift to each eye. Until I got a less shifty screen, I didn't know if I could ever use LCD.

After this I bought a 21" trinitron and cheapo 17" TN screen. The TN screen doesn't bother me at all because it is shift up/down but not side to side. But TN aren't that great and while I can still see the up/down shift, it doesn't drive me nuts or give me headaches. But if I rotate the TN screen vertically (portrait mode) and I get the same nasty effects of the PVA.

Horizontal shift (for me) is much more annoying/fatiguing than vertical tone shits. IPS will be better in both directions and is pretty close to using CRT for viewing angle.

Let me try to put it in perspective. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being perfect viewing angle stability and freedom from tone shift Here is my take on the different technologies.


CRT:
Horizontal: 10
Vertical: 10

IPS:
Horizontal: 9
Vertical: 9

TN:
Horizontal: 8
Vertical: 4

PVA:
Horizontal: 6
Vertical: 6

That is also my order of preference because the Horizontal is what gives me headaches. By far the worse horizontal shift is on VA panels.
 
abcdelight said:
I have read monitor reviews in a lot of places the last 6 months and I can't say I have much regard for any of them. Specs are often a mess and one misquote gets repeated dozens of times. Most times you never even read if anything is S-IPS or PVA etc. That's nuts in my view. I heard "Tom's Hardware" was suppposed to be good but I don't think much of them anymore either - at least not for monitors (but they also did a review of an Asus mobo that had been posted in October but used a Bios that was pre C2D yet lamented errors that had already been fixed).

I read review sites but like forums better - especially after I can see who has actually been following monitors and can cut through the hype or get to facts. Some manufaturers and have real issues with components, input lag etc and despite widespread awareness and discussion of these in forums they never seem to get mentioned much on well known sites (who also take a lot of advertising). It's scandalous in my eyes really.

My fav site for monitors is another French site (BeHardware is French I think) called Les Numeriques. You have probably seen it because they do the photo comparisons of the different models ("Angles de vision" in menu) - an example (and keep in mind the menu give different comparisons):


http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=52&mo1=149&p1=1606&ma2=36&mo2=105&p2=1041&ph=6

I also like the read/search users at dcpreview because that's a more or less savy crowd for monitors (they have a computer forum) and also the specialty sites like Widescreen Gaming, Anandtech, Slashdot etc. Most of the specialty sites have some people who will know more and be more critical users who actually understand more of what's going on (and I dont consider myself one of these but at least I know that. I think a lot of reviewers don't know as much as they think they do either but are convinced otherwise).

Monitors are hard to gauge since there are a lot of different uses and budgets and its hard to see what they all can do. That's why I try to read from people who are better able to compare and are scientific be disposition and not just fans of this or that etc.
Click to expand...

hmm there's an H-IPS in that link, another IPS version i hadn't heard of yet.

anyhow, the problem with that other french site, unlike behardware, is that it isnt really in english so i cant really read it.

and like with tomshardware places like anandtech dont really keep consistent, i go to their displays section and they have like, one article from 2006 (either that or the site is just very poorly organized).
 
Snowdog said:
You don't have to move to have a problem. Even perfectly centered the tones change across the screen on PVA.

I bought a Dell 2007fp (4:3 model) way back before the lottery was known. I got a PVA. It color shifted really bad(I got rid of it). It actually gave additional fatigue/headaches and drove me nuts. If you are really sensitive as I am you get different shift in each eye and this creates a phony 3d/glare effect that can lead to headaches. This is caused by the difference in the image from difference in shift to each eye. Until I got a less shifty screen, I didn't know if I could ever use LCD.

After this I bought a 21" trinitron and cheapo 17" TN screen. The TN screen doesn't bother me at all because it is shift up/down but not side to side. But TN aren't that great and while I can still see the up/down shift, it doesn't drive me nuts or give me headaches. But if I rotate the TN screen vertically (portrait mode) and I get the same nasty effects of the PVA.

Horizontal shift (for me) is much more annoying/fatiguing than vertical tone shits. IPS will be better in both directions and is pretty close to using CRT for viewing angle.

Let me try to put it in perspective. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being perfect viewing angle stability and freedom from tone shift Here is my take on the different technologies.


CRT:
Horizontal: 10
Vertical: 10

IPS:
Horizontal: 9
Vertical: 9

TN:
Horizontal: 8
Vertical: 4

PVA:
Horizontal: 6
Vertical: 6

That is also my order of preference because the Horizontal is what gives me headaches. By far the worse horizontal shift is on VA panels.
Click to expand...

That's interesting Snowdog. I personally don't mind my current monitor, but it gives my wife bad headaches and she can't stand looking at it for too long. I wonder if its the panel type (P-MVA I think...its a Sceptre NagaIII 20" widescreen)?

I'm thinking of ditching this monitor and getting something that is less stress on the eyes. I was eyeballing those new 27" panels that are coming out but now I'm starting to think that I might be better off with an IPS panel. If I go IPS though, I don't want smaller than a 24" and that pretty much looks like it only leaves me the 30"ers right now. That's a pretty big leap in price though. :(
 
silentsammy said:
That's interesting Snowdog. I personally don't mind my current monitor, but it gives my wife bad headaches and she can't stand looking at it for too long. I wonder if its the panel type (P-MVA I think...its a Sceptre NagaIII 20" widescreen)?

I'm thinking of ditching this monitor and getting something that is less stress on the eyes. I was eyeballing those new 27" panels that are coming out but now I'm starting to think that I might be better off with an IPS panel. If I go IPS though, I don't want smaller than a 24" and that pretty much looks like it only leaves me the 30"ers right now. That's a pretty big leap in price though. :(
Click to expand...


http://www.flatpanels.dk/panels.php lists the Naga II as P-MVA.
One other factor is brightness. I had a Dell 2405 for a while and on top of being very shifty, it scorched the eyes. It lead to almost instant eye discomfort. The viewing angle oddity is more subtle.

S-IPS is rare. Right now it is a few 20" (HP 2065, NEC 20WMGX2) or an older 23" (Sony 234) or the big 30". Nec has many but they are generally very expensive.
 
abcdelight said:
My fav sites for monitors is Xbit and another French site (BeHardware is French I think) called Les Numeriques. You have probably seen it because they do the photo comparisons of the different models ("Angles de vision" in menu) - an example (and keep in mind the menu give different comparisons):


http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=52&mo1=149&p1=1606&ma2=36&mo2=105&p2=1041&ph=6
Click to expand...

you do reallise that lesnumeriques is affiliated with hardware.fr? (Behardware is the english translation site of the french, Hardware.fr). That's why the tests are the same, pics the same etc. Vincent (the reviewer) does all the monitors there, but Lesnumeriques is just the tests as a quick ref on the most part, while BH is the full reviews.
 
spincut said:
http://www.behardware.com/articles/498-4/lcd-screens-in-a-nutshell.html

It basically evals the display technologies circa 2004 and lauds IPS (and S-IPS which is already out) as the worst quality of the IPS VA and TN, saying it is the worst for gaming.

but on here everyone desires S-IPS panels for that very purpose and lauds them as the highest end tech, did something change since 2-3 years ago when this was written, or was this dude always just wrong?
Click to expand...

Here's another aged article about panels and gaming. This time from firingsquad:
link
They state the opposite...VA's are the worst for gaming... ;)

Vincent from Behardware have yet to discover the loss of detail at center view on VA panels. Like many reviewers, he is biast to one panel type. Vincent prefers the VA panels due to black debth (though he doesn't seem to care much about black level detail...). He should take a lesson at [H] in how to spot detail shifts and then maybe he will be more trustworthy when it comes to reviewing PQ :p
 
JDAdams said:
It's always seemed odd to me that people place so much emphasis on viewing angles - I always use my monitor from directly in front, why would you do anything else? It's like letting setting up a surround sound system and then sitting off-centre. If I move, I rotate the monitor.
Click to expand...

I can understand you find it odd if you think the problem lies in the extreme viewing angles. The S-PVA complained about in the 2007WFP panel lottery have problems with center view or "directly in front" as you say. From center view (0 degrees) to a 5 degrees angle off center there are issues with loss of detail (at center compared to 5 degree) and color wash (at 5 degrees compared to center). Its probably caused by the boomerang shaped crystal alligment of the S-PVA creating a "dead angle" at center.
Here is an image of a S-PVA pixel being lit:
spvalit.jpg


Edit: The old article below also adresses the viewing angle issues with the old VA panels as well (PVA and MVA). Center view angles that is:
Color reproduction is not perfect, too, like with MVA matrices: when you are looking straight at the screen, the matrix “loses” some shades, which return after you deflect your line of sight from the perpendicular a little.
Click to expand...
link

Though they changed the domain structure from 4 to 8 on the S-PVA panels to increase the viewing angle at extreme angles, the loss of shades still apply due to the unchanged crystal positioning.
 
actually in their conclusion they claim the TN is favored in gaming.

albeit their listed flaws for the IPS seem very superflous, the violet is only a problem when looking from the side, and since the viewing angle is best that seems a worthy price to pay if it really matters.

and contrast ratio problem....well, since it's colors and stuff is so deep i'm not sure how that isnt blotted out as a potential issue.

then agian they cited the TN as the best gaming monitor because basically it sucked at everything but had a low response time, and noted the IPS was catching up, so maybe thats why today it is on top (because it finally caught up).
 
JDAdams said:
It's always seemed odd to me that people place so much emphasis on viewing angles - I always use my monitor from directly in front, why would you do anything else? It's like letting setting up a surround sound system and then sitting off-centre. If I move, I rotate the monitor.
Click to expand...

I also use it directly in front of my eyes, yet I still can see too much distortion on the S-IPS panel. Obviously TN and others are even worse. And if head moves a little, there can be distortion seen on the sides and corners. Good viewing angles are imo extremely important for WS-screen.
 
Riddlinkidstoner said:
as far as i know s-ips panels are better for picture quality and color reproduction rather than hardcore speed kinda of like the way ATI and Nvidia used to be..

TFT panels generally had better response time thus better for competitive gaming whereas s-ips panels were suited for better eye candy and pictures...


I could be wrong though
Click to expand...
TFT panels? All lcd panels of any technology type are considered TFT.....do you mean PVA? Anyway...I think the "dated" disclaimer in the thread title tells us all we need to know about the article. Even though the names of the specific lcd technologies don't change much, there have been refinements to the process since 04 and I don't think an IPS panel of that vintage would be very comparable to what we are getting today. Technology moves forward too quickly to use info that is 3-4 years old as a basis for decisions.
 
joemama said:
TFT panels? All lcd panels of any technology type are considered TFT.....do you mean PVA? Anyway...I think the "dated" disclaimer in the thread title tells us all we need to know about the article. Even though the names of the specific lcd technologies don't change much, there have been refinements to the process since 04 and I don't think an IPS panel of that vintage would be very comparable to what we are getting today. Technology moves forward too quickly to use info that is 3-4 years old as a basis for decisions.
Click to expand...

yeah but since the standards were the same at that time, i could fathom what kind of improvements had been made to launch it from what seemed like the worse to the best (since it hadn't evolved from S-IPS technology, likewise with the others).
 
JDAdams said:
It's always seemed odd to me that people place so much emphasis on viewing angles - I always use my monitor from directly in front, why would you do anything else? It's like letting setting up a surround sound system and then sitting off-centre. If I move, I rotate the monitor.
Click to expand...

Have you used an S-PVA panel? The S-PVA 2007WFP I had was actually WORSE straight on than it was at an angle because the center was darker than the corners. I was getting occasional eye strain when I had it....not so with the S-IPS.
 
spincut said:
yeah but since the standards were the same at that time, i could fathom what kind of improvements had been made to launch it from what seemed like the worse to the best (since it hadn't evolved from S-IPS technology, likewise with the others).
Click to expand...

First you actually have to believe the guy who wote that confused guide to start with. He is a big MVA fan.

Second. Most of his IPS complaints seem to be around reaction time. TN is natively the fastest technology, both VA and S-IPS were fairly slow, VA technologies were the first to get Overdrive to speed up the reaction time. So if you look at reaction time right after VA has overdrive but IPS doesn't then IPS is at a definite disadvantage. This situation is not the case today both IPS and VA have overdrive. The fastest, most smear free gaming monitor is usually considered to be the NEC 20WMGX2 that is IPS based. Very close behind is the Dell 2007wfp (the IPS version).

IMO that "guide" wasn't very accurate when it was written and is now completely behind the times.

Behardware/Lensnumeric is only really usefull for the pictures, the comments are often slightly out to lunch.
 
it's just interesting that aside from the point about it not being very accurate, the idea that without even technology evolutions (still called S IPS and PVA, and TN is still the same type) that so much would change.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top