Well said.
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Thief Demanding PC Gets Pummeled Instead
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Well said.
SixtyWattMan
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Wow I've come back after a few hours and people have actually defended these scum bags.
No one is defending these "scum bags". Stop being so sensational.
There's many points here people are discussing which just clouds the issue. For one, robbery to murder is a big jump that, more often than not, does not happen. Secondly, there's no logical reason to shoot someone threatening violence with a bat more than once in order to maim them and end the threat. If you close your eyes and just spray and pray, in my book you are no better than an animal defending the territory is pisses in. Death is not the only way to end a threat and hardly ever the best.
Of course these situations are so touchy they should only be dealt with on a case by case basis.
There's many points here people are discussing which just clouds the issue. For one, robbery to murder is a big jump that, more often than not, does not happen. Secondly, there's no logical reason to shoot someone threatening violence with a bat more than once in order to maim them and end the threat. If you close your eyes and just spray and pray, in my book you are no better than an animal defending the territory is pisses in. Death is not the only way to end a threat and hardly ever the best.
Of course these situations are so touchy they should only be dealt with on a case by case basis.
SixtyWattMan
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Robbery to murder is not a big jump. It takes seconds to kill someone. If someone break into my house and threatens me with a bat I'm not really going to give a shit if they live or die. They know the rules and they know the threat they face when breaking into someones house, I have no remorse for them. I don't want to shoot them and that would be the best possible outcome and the last thing I would do to stop them, I'm just saying I don't care about them.
everyone has the right to defend themselves and their own.. I mean somebody breaks into your house with a bat in hand, they're not there to play baseball, their armed and threatening you thats already assault + breaking and entering, firing a few rounds through their skull is justified self defense (gosh im sounding american, shit), because who knows how quickly the situation could turn sour, the burglar may freak out when he realises you're home and 'accidentally' murder you in your own home. There are plenty of cases of this happening when an intruder is startled, so the fear is justified and any measure taken to defend yourself is too. I mean its not like you waited outside the burglars house, followed him into an alleyway and shot him. People build a house/apartment for security, that's its primary purpose, a place to keep your stuff and feel safe, I mean otherwise we all may aswell live in the forest....
If someone enters your home with intent to harm they have forfeited their right to life, fucking period.
I'm all for non-violence - but the point at which non-violence is effective is in the schools, jobs, public programs, etc., so that 90% of people who might become burglars instead become useful citizens.
When it's at the point that they're already in the act of invading your home, though, the time for all that shit has passed.
I'm all for non-violence - but the point at which non-violence is effective is in the schools, jobs, public programs, etc., so that 90% of people who might become burglars instead become useful citizens.
When it's at the point that they're already in the act of invading your home, though, the time for all that shit has passed.
So would you like home owners to go "Hey, uh, Mr. Robber person? Yeah, I was wondering were you planning to kill us? If so wait right here while I get my gun."
Sorry it doesn't work that way. You don't want to take the time to stop and think "gee, maybe if I just scare them they will go away. I mean after all most robberies don't end in murder so why should this one be different". You don't know if the person is concealing a gun or another weapon ready to kill at a moments notice or how they will react to being frightened. No one is advocating the "spray and pay" method either. If you someone doesn't know how to shoot a gun correctly they shouldn't own one, period. Spray and pray should NEVER be used outside of video games.
There are a number of logical reasons to shoot an attacker more than once:
1) Handgun accuracy is not necessarily a given, even at short distances. The attacker may be moving and I doubt most would be calm enough to aim properly.
2) 1 hit will not necessarily have the stopping power to incapacitate the attacker. Even with hollow point rounds it may take more than 1 accurate hit. If the robber is a drugged up addict then it may take even more. (Why the hell else would someone rob a house if not for drugs, $ for a new video card?
)3) In the heat of the moment how could you even be sure you hit them? It's not like blood is going to explode everywhere or they're going to say "ah! you got me"
I'm not saying you have to continue shooting someone once they're dead on the floor, but I see no good reason NOT to unload the entire magazine, unless you have reason to believe there is more than 1 robber.
It's a risk, but so is shooting your gun. Most thieves will take off if they discover someone is awake and/or has a gun. Shooting a gun in a house puts anyone in the house at risk, and neighboring houses at risk too. Bullets can travel through several walls before stopping. Firing a gun in an apartment is even more dangerous.
I'd much rather lose the element of surprise on a violent intruder than risk accidentally having a slug travel through a few walls into my neighbor's daughter just to get the jump on some kid trying to make off with a hundred bucks in electronics.
MOST of the time I don't have a burglar in my house... MOST of the time I don't have someone threatening the saftety of myself and loved ones...
and if you're inside, your bullet isnt going to hit a passer by, thats ridiculous... maybe some target practice would be helpful if you're hitting little children while shooting at close range..
People sometimes need to remember, you don't accidently pick up ANY weapon and decide to go rob someone's house...there takes an ENORMOUS amount of premeditation during which most sensible, decent people say to themselves "No, I'm not doing that..." there's a difference between some comically unprofessional mugger with a finger pushing out of a sweater like it's a gun, versus someone who takes a real weapon into his hand....
I imagine most 'professional' burglars don't even carry a weapon on them...probably a flashlight, lockpicks and maybe some bobby pin hidden on their person...hell I don't know I'm not a burglar...
I imagine most 'professional' burglars don't even carry a weapon on them...probably a flashlight, lockpicks and maybe some bobby pin hidden on their person...hell I don't know I'm not a burglar...
MrGuvernment
Fully [H]
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if they dont have a gun they prob arent getting away with much at all!
but i am sure many of us here can talk the talk, but when you are at that situation and someone has a knife out at you... you probably wont be as tuff as you say you are when it comes down to it...
but i am sure many of us here can talk the talk, but when you are at that situation and someone has a knife out at you... you probably wont be as tuff as you say you are when it comes down to it...
If it came down to potentially dying or letting some piece of shit potentially hurt the people I care about you can damn well bet on me on not giving two shits about what the scum will do to me and doing whatever I can to help the people that I actually care about.
LOL, I thought the exact opposite (cas im really not the violent type, plus im real short) until somebody drew a knife tried to mug me walking away from a service station, i threw my slurpee at him, pushed him to the ground and crushed his hand with my boot. Got myself a free knife
MrGuvernment
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true if it came down to life and death for sure, adrenaline kicks in!
Robbers aren't entitled to 60" HDTV's and $5000 stereo either.
Slyr7.62
Gawd
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Well, one definite state I'd like to live in is Texas. I wouldn't have to worry about getting sued from defending myself/property/family when a robber breaks in. I mean if I happen to "frag" him or "separate his head from his body" with a "blade". (Damn, some Katana's can be a few grand). How's the weather in Northern Texas?
Yes, he's way off-base in his argument. He needs a reality check.
However, this is not a question of entitlement.
Here's a true story for you to think about:
I grew up in a neighborhood that had a relatively low crime rate. Sure, we had break-ins, rapes, deaths every once in a while, but overall - it was relatively safe (compared with the inner-city).
I knew a girl who lived with her older sister, mother, and father. They lived a couple of streets down from me.
One evening, (not night) her family was awake and watching television in the living room. A man broke the girl's bedroom window and entered the home.
The father reacted swiftly, arming himself with a shotgun he kept in the living-room gun cabinet. He, not thinking about the element of surprise(he reacted instinctively to protect his family), yelled "I'm armed, and I will shoot you if you do not leave my home NOW!!!"
The man fled.
After the incident, the father purchased handguns for both daughters. He taught them safe gun-handling, responsibility, and marksmanship. They practiced with the firearms, and became proficient. They kept them in their room(s) from that day forward.
Fast-forward a year or two (I can't remember the exact time-line).
It happened again, later at night when the family was sleeping.
This time, the younger sister was in her room.
The man (not sure if it was the same one) broke the window. She went for her gun, got it, and before she could even aim it at the intruder, he left.
They have not had another home invasion since then. (it's been a long time).
Now, let's review.
Both times, deadly force was DEFINITELY authorized for use. The intruder posed an unknown, immediate threat to all the family members in the home.
Was he there to take a TV? Was he there to harm someone?
We don't know.
But we do know that all the cars were in the driveway, and the first time it happened - all of them were awake with the lights in the home on.
So, Orangey, I ask you-
What would you have done?
Would you have asked the intruder to state their purpose before acting? Would you say:
"Come on in! Yeah, my family is here, you want to take a TV? Oh, what's that you say? You don't have a weapon you are hiding? Oh, that bat is just for playing baseball? You're not going to hurt anyone, you just want to take all of my stuff? Sure! Here, I'll help you. Oh, wait, you want to kill/kidnap/rape my daughter(s)? Let me stop you now. Hold on a second while I arm myself!"
To say that the possibility of murder or rape in a home invasion is "scaremongering NRA propaganda bullshit" is highly inaccurate.
Not only are you incorrect in that assertion, your stated philosophy in your post implies that a criminal is just as entitled, if not more entitled to your things than you are.
You, clearly, are not in touch with reality.
First, I didn't say brick. Most houses have cheap wood (or stucco/aluminum siding) exterior, which do far less for slowing a bullet down. Apartments have two panels of sheetrock. And high powered rifles have far less penetrating power because the bullets will fragment well and the fragments are stopped quickly. When using a handgun in a home, always buy defensive rounds. Hollow points will usually fragment and slow down more quickly whereas a ball (or full metal jacket) round will travel through many walls, and possibly a few brick walls.
If there is less than 8 feet between you and a possible assailant, a gun is probably the wrong tool for the job. A bat might work better, and club even better, and a machete is probably best. I'm guessing you don't know how hard it is to hit a moving target in the dark with your flight-or-fight induce adrenaline rush fighting your 2AM grogginess. At that stage you're a lot more likely to mistake a family member for a robber and shoot them.
I hope for your family and your neighbor's sake you're a lot more more cautious than you make yourself out to be here.
w1retap
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Tone down your arsenal? What the hell kind of dictatorship would some people run here? What's a "reasonable" firearm to own? What's "toned down"? Let's hand over all the unreasonable firearms to the government because they can be trusted more than the average citizen..
If you're using a weapon like a high powered rifle with wall penetrating rounds in the first place, you're a dumbass. The best home defense weapons are a CQC type firearm. A 9mm with hollow points, a 20ga/12ga with birdshot, etc. Just look at some ballistics test videos. But in the first place, you have to be 100% sure of your target before you fire, and what's behind and around that target.
If you're using a weapon like a high powered rifle with wall penetrating rounds in the first place, you're a dumbass. The best home defense weapons are a CQC type firearm. A 9mm with hollow points, a 20ga/12ga with birdshot, etc. Just look at some ballistics test videos. But in the first place, you have to be 100% sure of your target before you fire, and what's behind and around that target.
Here are the three most important parts of this story, as relates to what I said. First, when there was distance between the intruder and the ones being protected, he yelled out to scare away the intruder. This scared off the intruder and prevented the potentially very dangerous fight situation. (Dangerous for the one with the gun and others being protected.)
Second, he got guns for his family members, but made sure to teach them safety AND marksmanship. A gun in the hands of someone that doesn't know how to use it is more likely to hurt the handler or innocent than the intended recipient. During the world wars they discovered that most of the soldiers froze up in the heat of battle and never even fired their weapons. They began to emphasize proficiency (and a few other tricks) so that they could fire on instinct. This made it so that soldiers didn't have time to freeze up, they would instinctually point and shoot their gun. If you aren't proficient with your gun, you probably won't be able to react properly and use it in high stress situations.
Third, when there wasn't a barrier between the intruder and the one to be protected (the gun handler in this instance), the first thing she went to do was aim the gun at the intruder. The next thing she should have done is pull the trigger. It only takes a fraction of a second to cross a room, so delaying is a good way to be overcome.
Thanks, I forgot to mention that. A shotgun with bird shot is usually the safest gun to shoot in a dwelling. At close range it'll take off a face, and it's really hard to be attacked by someone without a face. A little further back and the shot probably won't even make it through a single panel of sheet rock. The only problem is if the assailant gets too close to you.
Tone down your arsenal? What the hell kind of dictatorship would some people run here? What's a "reasonable" firearm to own? What's "toned down"? Let's hand over all the unreasonable firearms to the government because they can be trusted more than the average citizen..
If you're using a weapon like a high powered rifle with wall penetrating rounds in the first place, you're a dumbass. The best home defense weapons are a CQC type firearm. A 9mm with hollow points, a 20ga/12ga with birdshot, etc. Just look at some ballistics test videos. But in the first place, you have to be 100% sure of your target before you fire, and what's behind and around that target.
WOW... SO GLAD, i don't live in america, having people next door with enough guns to start their own gihad would freak the hell outta me...
your government has nukes, you think every tom dick and harry should have access to those too?? when those laws that some of you american people hold so dead were made, they didn't know guns were going to come along that could wipe out an entire classroom of students with one quick spray... guns were at a level where if you walked into a room of 10 people with a gun and started firing, you would be overpowered before too long.. i suppose being a good Christian also im guessing that you believe a father has the right to sell his daughter into slavery (It says that plain and clear in the Bible).. Another thing that may have had some bearing at the time it was written but completely absurd and irrelevant today.
i only know 1 person with a gun (a plain simple rifle), and well its peaceful here, we dont have the queen of england all up in our face or nothin'.... and your government messes with your rights every second day, what you talking about.. you aint shootin nobody yet, what will it take? they make you poorer and poorer everyday, and get richer and richer doing it, eventually you wont be able to afford the ammo, where will your precious laws be then?
cool, fine, have your crazy deathray and say its to hunt animals or whatever, but if you're going to your gun cabinet and pulling out a weapon that looks like it should be mounted on a helicopter.. its my opinion that you may have some deep-seeded emotional problems..
EDIT: cool, fine, have your crazy deathray and say its to hunt animals or whatever, but if you're going to your gun cabinet and pulling out a weapon that looks like it should be mounted on a helicopter TO DEAL WITH AN INTRUDER.. its my opinion that you may have some deep-seeded emotional problems..
sorry, im not used to such cheap building standards, there may be the occasional fibro house (but they are really rare).. most everything here in australia is double brick exterior, and walls between separate units are also double brick, with interior wall single brick..
If living next door to responsible gun owners that happen to own a lot of guns scares you, then you need to familiarize yourself with human beings. Do you get scared when someone is using a kitchen knife to cut some vegetables next to you in your kitchen?
Yes, let's compare firearms to nuclear weapons. What?!
Incorrect. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Laws have been made to PRESERVE the INHERENT rights of human beings to defend themselves. America is a country in which these rights have been upheld. We, as Americans, believe in being able to defend our lives, liberty, and property. I'm sorry that you do not see it that way.
No. See my above response. You assume that laws UPHOLDING the INHERENT rights of human beings somehow DIFFER based on the type of weapons used. If you are a law-abiding, responsible gun owner, the difference between having a semi-automatic .308 rifle or a single-shot .22 target rifle is not to be debated. They can both kill a human being.
The "ease" in which you can kill a human being does not make the firearm any "worse" or "bad." If someone is going to kill another person with a firearm, it won't matter if that firearm is capable of shooting 1 shot or 100 shots without reloading. They will inflict harm either way.
You seem to think that giving someone 10 bullets instead of 5 "enables" them to all of a sudden kill someone.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.... it seems rather incoherent. If you are referring to the possibility of an eventual "banning" of weapons resulting in an unarmed populace (like other nations, including Nazi Germany and Stalin-ruled Soviet era territories) then, please elaborate and explain your position more clearly.
Not quite sure what you're talking about. Deathray?
Monkey God
Mangina Full of Sand
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Its funny to watch the obviously disparate level of debating skills of those both pro and against firearm ownership.
Well you need to be aware as best as possible if you are going to hit anyone. You obviously want to minimize shooting at the direction of family member's bedrooms.
Not true. You could. A bullet can exit your house and go into someone else's house. However if you are smart, you live in a brick house (I realize this isn't always an option depending on where you live) and you use jacketed hollow points where they are legal. (Some states do not allow for them.) A JHP round will NOT penetrate bricks folks. Do not let movies fool you. They don't. At least not for handgun calibers you'd actually want to use in self-defense situations. I've shot JHP .45ACP rounds at bricks before. Common red brick will STOP the bullet. 9mm, .40S&W, .38 Special, these rounds aren't going to go through common brick.
Bullshit. A brick can stop many rifle rounds. Don't give me that nonsense. A handgun won't do it either. Magnums will probably shatter the brick, but again unless it is FMJ ammunition the bullet will likely suffer deflection and probably won't have enough velocity to kill anyone once it exits the house.
There are some guns you do use for self-defense and some you don't.
.38 Special -OK
9mm -OK
.40S&W -OK
.45ACP -OK
.50AE -NO
.454 Casull -NO
.500 Magnum -NO
With rifles it will vary. 5.56x45mm may or may not penetrate a brick wall after going through other walls first, but things like the AK-47's 7.62x39mm round chew up bricks pretty quickly if you hit the same area repeatedly. So the best thing to do is do your research and get the appropriate weapon. You don't want rounds that are too weak to get you the required penetration but you don't want rounds that will go right through the badguy then end up in your neighbors house. Typically you just avoid full metal jacketed rounds if you can. JHP rounds are designed to expand and because they'll expand so much, and due to that expansion they'll lose velocity. They shouldn't typically penetrate a human being and if they do they won't have much velocity left when they do.
Think, do research. Don't spread FUD.
Yeah it gets really bad sometimes. Especially in apartments.
stamsek
[H]F Junkie
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After he pummeled the thief, the owner of the laptop beat on his chest as if he was King Kong and cried out "I'm a PC!!!" which was heard from miles around.
I disagree. At 8 feet, if your weapon is already out your chances of hittting him are better than you think. You may not get the head shot or perfect center mass but it will do the job. One hit with a Machette, a sword or a bat or club won't necessarily knock the guy down, nor will it kill him. The best way to stop someone is to shoot them and hit vital organs. There is a reason why they don't run around with swords on the battlefield. The gun is a far more effective killing tool. Even up close. Now from a draw, the gun vs. sword or knife argument changes. However wounds from knives are rarely fatal in one hit. A firearm has a better chance of a one hit kill than a knife does.
As for the latter, night lights and weapon lights can help you avoid making a mistake and shooting the wrong person.
Bullshit. Where do you people get this stuff? Bird shot will NOT penetrate far enough into human flesh to kill someone. Especially in one shot. Bird shot makes a nasty looking wound but that's all it is. Nasty LOOKING. It will not penetrate the breast bone/rib cage, and even the pellets that do won't penetrate far enough into the flesh to get the job done. Bird shot doesn't always kill birds in one shot how the fuck is it supposed to drop a human? Trust me any shotgun load that won't penetrate walls won't penetrate people either.
Good lord. Where do people get this stuff?
Monkey God
Mangina Full of Sand
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Low paid gun-store employees
Now it makes sense!
brucedeluxe169
2[H]4U
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and whats wrong with that? Americans are among the most talented, creative, strong willed, and righteous people on the planet. sorry if your country and it's people haven't been such a *huge* net plus for the world like America has ... not everyone can live in such an incredible and vibrant place ....
anyway.... just to comment on the story...
i've recently graduated from college and been working (on wall st, lawls, but still employed *crosses fingers*), and all I can say is that when I buy my first house, along with the furniture, i'll be buying my guns. I believe very strongly in the rights that the 2nd amendment *protects*, and will exercise my rights.... otherwise we all risk losing them.
And yea, I intend on keeping that gun close by my bed at night, i've lived in bad neighborhoods before, and have seen how low some people can be firsthand...
/non-white, 1st generation son of immigrants, liberal college attendee
brucedeluxe169
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i readily admit to being a huge pansy IRL, i actively avoid fights, and would do anything to avoid confrontation....
but if someone has broken into my house, we are *way* past the point where I can avoid confrontation, especially if i have a wife and kids....
... and thats why *protections* like the 2nd amendment are so important. sure, i might be a wimp in a fight, but I assure you, i'd be much less of a wimp with a robber when I have his upper body lined up down the sights of my pistol and all he can do is wave a knife at me....
There is so much misinformation and FUD regarding firearms and firearm ownership spewed by the general news-media and agenda-wielding politicians that it is becoming increasingly difficult for individuals new to the subject to obtain proper information.
I feel a strong pity for people who live in nations where defending oneself is considered a crime. I particularly feel sorry for the nations (and communities within the United States) that have used twisted logic to "ban" firearms from public ownership.
It's sad, really. The fact that those communities in America are clearly violating human rights that are protected by our nation's constitution sickens me. (Chicago, D.C., the list goes on. Good thing the "gun-control" there works! Oh, wait....)
Criminals love it. It's great to be able to rob, rape, and murder with no resistance from the general populace. Baaaa baaaaa. You hear that? That's the sound of the sheep. Careful, don't become part of the flock.
I feel a strong pity for people who live in nations where defending oneself is considered a crime. I particularly feel sorry for the nations (and communities within the United States) that have used twisted logic to "ban" firearms from public ownership.
It's sad, really. The fact that those communities in America are clearly violating human rights that are protected by our nation's constitution sickens me. (Chicago, D.C., the list goes on. Good thing the "gun-control" there works! Oh, wait....)
Criminals love it. It's great to be able to rob, rape, and murder with no resistance from the general populace. Baaaa baaaaa. You hear that? That's the sound of the sheep. Careful, don't become part of the flock.
No need to feel sorry, but thanks all the same, mate! I quite like the UK - sure, it rains a lot & we pay a hefty premium for our computer bits; however, at least we dont have to worry (too much) about getting shot (on purpose or by accident).
You Yanks are a lot of fun, and for the most part I admire your spirit - but really, you can keep your gun law. We Brits generally sort things out with a good old fashioned kicking; more often than not, that suffices.
That said, I appreciate the playing field is somewhat different over there. Im just glad that Ive not had to adapt to such rules of engagement and hope that I never shall. My folks live in South Africa (Durban) and I have other family in Johannesburg. I choose not to live there either ; )
brucedeluxe169
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meh, I doubt most americans have any problem with the UKers and vice versa, but honestly, popular media wouldn't have you believe that....
after all, our country was founded pretty much as a slightly more capitalist england without a monarchy... thats pretty much it... your common law is pretty much the skeleton of our legal system...