The North Pole Is Now a Lake

4saken said:
oh and here.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323864604579067243988516908.html
Click to expand...

ya was going to say

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astr...ea_ice_global_cooling_and_other_nonsense.html

thing is it was global warming then the showed the ozone hole was shrinking to then they had to come up with a new buzz word cause global warming was buzzed out, so then they changed it to "Climate Change" . The world changes climate, period, sure we have sped up this time around but to think in the time the world has been around that we have the power to :f*** up the earth is pretty arrogant of us, the only thing that wont live through this is us.
 
Draax said:
It would appear that many in this thread do not understand the difference between long term global trends and short term local weather patterns.
Simply because your local weather was been cooler does not mean that is any way reflective of the global average. Even the global average may have years or even decades of cooler than average temperatures however the long term global trend is demonstrably a temperature increase which accelerated, over and above the norms, during the last century.
Click to expand...

Over and above the norms based on what?

The about last 100 years that we as human have been able to semi record accurate temperatures?

Again, think how old the earth is, now think 100 years of temperatures... wow.. ya, that is like %0.000000000000000000000000000000000000001 of the earth time we have measured and assume we know what is happening..?
 
The "arrogant" argument is illogical. It's more arrogant to think your shit don't stink than it is to try and clean it up.
 
Draax said:
This is false. Rapid warming over the last century has cancelled out over 2000 years of gradual cooling. In fact records show that we experienced almost the same range of temperature change since the beginning of the industrial revolution as over the previous 11,000 years of Earth history – but this change happened a lot more quickly.
Click to expand...

How was what I said false? Never did I say that mankind had no effect on the rate at which the earth was warming. We will still hit a tipping point where things will start to get colder...
 
It's not that man made the problem, but were are certainly exacerbating it needlessly.
Click to expand...

How do you know we aren't actually mitigating the severity of another problem all together?

Look, I just think man really overplays his impact on the earth. A couple of years ago the US was facing a major natural disaster of epic scale with the BP spill.

Where'd it go?

All life on this rock is carbon based.
Fossil based fuels are carbon based.
The raw material of those fuels occur naturally as a result of the planet's cycles and the cycle of life.
This planet has natural methods for dealing with oil spills we found out. It makes sense I suppose. I am sure there have been some doozies as the result of tectonic or volcanic activity in the oceans and I don't think there was anyone around to put their hole in the dyke back then.
I just think we overplay how big we really are and give ourselves way too much credit.

At worst we'll just do enough damage to kill ourselves.
 
I remember the last time we had a global warming thread on [H]... one user responded to one of my posts defending the science with some mean spirited south park images. For some reason, people seem to be more opinionated about it than many other issues, even though the populace by and large doesn't care about it either way.

But yes, it is an important and very real issue. In the words of Neil DeGrasse Tyson, being able to accept the truth is "part of being a mature adult". I am personally a modeler myself, but a lot of the evidence is empirically based, including the fact that CO2 absorbs radiation at infrared wavelengths. A very good documentary on the scientific aspect of the issue (which many people seem to neglect on either side) has recently been released here:

http://thiniceclimate.org/watch

Seriously, to those feeling skeptical out there, particularly of the validity of the science, this is a must watch. It does cost a bit of money but it is an interesting film in its own right in that you get to see many scientists from different discipline at work on the issue ranging from drilling ice cores in Antarctica to running models on supsercomputers (if anything, I would think that is something an [H]er should appreciate!).
 
Stiletto said:
I love that some people still have the balls to talk about "silly affairs of money" during one of the worst economic downturns in decades. News flash: the rich, with all their money, can afford solar panels and hybrid cars and wind turbines. The rest of us are trying to feed ourselves. Sorry we haven't the spare cash to give you good feelings about Mother Earth, who can slaughter us wholesale with natural disasters at any moment.
Click to expand...

I'm talking more about the world as a whole not individuals. Ex: Companies could use more earth friendly ways to do business, the government could make electric cars be standard (thus not cost as much as it would no longer be a niche thing) etc... lot of things the right people with power and money can do. But that's just not part of their agenda since they rather be on the oil gravy train.


Since yeah as individuals most people don't have the money, and the few people who do go fully green arn't enough to make a big difference.

I think the first step is getting rid of fossil fuel in use for energy production. Replace that with green methods. In most cases this can be replaced with electric. Now, next step is replacing all the dirty power plants such as coal with something cleaner. Perhaps nuclear as a stepping stone (that has it's own issues but still better than fossil fuel) then eventually full wind/solar/hydro electric. This change cna't happen overnight but it should definitely be happening faster than it is now. The people who have the power to change this are in bed with the oil industry though, so it's a pipe dream to think anything will change.

Of course there are other things to consider such as the actual production of things like solar panels, plastic (oil based) and so on, but the majority of pollution probably comes from generating energy, and not generating the things that make/use energy. Recycling itself probably creates pollution too. I don't think we could possibly eliminate ALL pollution but we could probably get it down to a point where it's barely impacting. There is some pollution you just can't help, such as poop. :p
 
Red Squirrel said:
I'm talking more about the world as a whole not individuals. Ex: Companies could use more earth friendly ways to do business, the government could make electric cars be standard (thus not cost as much as it would no longer be a niche thing) etc... lot of things the right people with power and money can do. But that's just not part of their agenda since they rather be on the oil gravy train.
Click to expand...

The "oil gravy train"? That's not why your ideas are bad. They're bad because they ultimately result in regular people having to bear the cost. Companies adopt all kinds of green initiatives these days. Have you been to any lately? They brag about that shit like a cat showing off a dead animal. Unfortunately, those green initiatives have costs, and those costs have to come from somewhere.

Well, it's the green movement that pushes these ideas, so I'd suggest they pay. Of course, they don't. So where does the cost go? Are they going to lower their profits? If their profits aren't big to begin with, probably not, and justifiably so. This isn't the time to be toying with economic insecurity. Inevitably, it lands in the cost to their customers. Perhaps you think, "just make the government pay them!", which of course is silly because then it would be the taxpayers. It would be those same taxpayers who would bear the increased costs associated with only being able to buy electric cars. You think the car companies are inflating the cost of their cars? The prices aren't going to fall just because they become the only thing on the market as a result of government further stifling the auto industry. Suddenly you can add 20 grand to the price tag of every car in the lot. Those batteries don't maintain capacity forever, either.

I think the first step is getting rid of fossil fuel in use for energy production. Replace that with green methods. In most cases this can be replaced with electric. Now, next step is replacing all the dirty power plants such as coal with something cleaner. Perhaps nuclear as a stepping stone (that has it's own issues but still better than fossil fuel) then eventually full wind/solar/hydro electric. This change cna't happen overnight but it should definitely be happening faster than it is now. The people who have the power to change this are in bed with the oil industry though, so it's a pipe dream to think anything will change.
Click to expand...

Wait, what? Replace fossil fuel with "electric"? Sure, we can use electricity to generate electricity. Neat.

And actually, I agree on nuclear, but the environmental lobby needs to ditch the fearmongering and get on board to get off coal. We should also put to use our sudden surplus of natural gas, and ditch the fearmongering about fracking which turned out to be untrue. We're actually going to be exporting for the first time in a while. As for alternative energy, only when it is efficient. If it's not efficient, it's not worthwhile, and it's not worth the hard-earned dollars of the middle class.

but the majority of pollution probably comes from generating energy, and not generating the things that make/use energy.
Click to expand...

Drugs are bad, mmmkay? I mean, I'm baked as I type this, but you seem to have much better shit.
 
What does drugs have to do with anything? So are you saying the process of making a car makes more pollution than that car will ever make? My point was, we need to make products that do not make pollution while being used. Step 1: Make everything use electricity instead of fossil fuel. Step 2: Replace all power plants that use fossil fuel to something that does not make pollution. Step 1 will have some effect, as here for example, all power comes from hydro electric, so step 2 is already done. Also, even if electricity comes from fossil fuel in some places, it is much more efficient to generate 10MW of power in one giant unit than have many units(cars) generating their own energy via fossil fuel. 10MW worth of cars is going to make much more pollution than a single natural gas 10MW plant for example. So just making everything electric, which we have the tech for, would greatly reduce pollution.

Also, why even use coal these days, when natural gas is abundant. There needs to at least be some basic steps to help reduce pollution but nothing is being done.

As for energy initiatives, those are all pipe dreams, you see these "great awesome things" on TV or the internet, and a month later it's gone. What ever happened to the Mitsubishi full electric car or all the concepts about "battery stations" (I actually thought of that as a kid, it's nice to see that concept get brought up, but it never goes anywhere) or those giant solar dishes that make like 1MW each? They'll air a TV show on some new green tech then you never hear about it again.
 
Stiletto said:
That's not why your ideas are bad. They're bad because they ultimately result in regular people having to bear the cost.
Click to expand...
Regular people ALWAYS have to bear the costs. Those at the top always have a way around it, or get laws passed to change the situation. Middle and lower class people always pay; there are no loopholes written for us. The poor pay in regressive forms like fees and sales taxes, and hidden taxes on services. And while the 1%ers yell and yell that they do pay high tax rates, they're still living in their mansions and penthouses and own multiple homes usuallly in multiple countries. Sure lop another 10% off their income and what happens to them? Nothing. There lifestyle doesn't change, they eat the same foods, keep sending muffy to the ivy league school, keep the same servants, maybe won't buy a new yacht this year. Lop 10% off the income of a family who's making 40K a year and it will make a big dent. Of course, the top doesn't pay normal taxes anyway. I sit in an office and do paperwork, arranging the movement of products from city to city, I make ''regular income". Leland Moneypockets sits in his office and does paperwork, but it's shuffling stocks around, so that's 'capital gains' income, so he only pays half the rate that I do. Yeah, of course I see the huge difference, and why he should get a much lower rate. Sure.
Regular people ALWAYS pay.
 
Red Squirrel said:
So are you saying the process of making a car makes more pollution than that car will ever make?
Click to expand...

In the case of electric cars, actually, yes. Those batteries are not environmentally friendly to produce.

My point was, we need to make products that do not make pollution while being used.
Click to expand...

We also need cars that run on water, and both ideas are equally viable. Pollution cannot be eliminated. It can only be reduced.

Step 1: Make everything use electricity instead of fossil fuel.
Click to expand...

Your statement is nonsense. Fossil fuel is one way we produce electricity. It's not an alternative to electricity. This basic concept seems to escape you.

Step 2: Replace all power plants that use fossil fuel to something that does not make pollution.
Click to expand...

Every form of energy production creates some form of pollution. Wind turbines kill wildlife. Hydroelectric dams require huge amounts of land and ecosystem alterations. Solar panels have to be manufactured, which leaves a carbon footprint. You cannot eliminate pollution. This is the epitome of naivete within the green movement -- the belief that pollution and environmental impact can be "eliminated" in the production of energy. Wake up.
 
One word, Fukushima.

Lets clean that up 100% before we waste another dime on climate change.
 
ServerKing said:
SWEET!!!!!! Maybe all those Doomsday Preppers should stop now and blow there money on someting useful to build like a Space Ship.
Click to expand...

Or perhaps they should just live their lives and not worry so much about dying. ;)
 
lcpiper said:
How do you know we aren't actually mitigating the severity of another problem all together?

Look, I just think man really overplays his impact on the earth. A couple of years ago the US was facing a major natural disaster of epic scale with the BP spill.

Where'd it go?

All life on this rock is carbon based.
Fossil based fuels are carbon based.
The raw material of those fuels occur naturally as a result of the planet's cycles and the cycle of life.
This planet has natural methods for dealing with oil spills we found out. It makes sense I suppose. I am sure there have been some doozies as the result of tectonic or volcanic activity in the oceans and I don't think there was anyone around to put their hole in the dyke back then.
I just think we overplay how big we really are and give ourselves way too much credit.

At worst we'll just do enough damage to kill ourselves.
Click to expand...

I thought that whole oil spill thing was a joke as well. Especially the trickery used by the media, calling it the biggest oil spill in the gulf American history...when it was not the biggest spill in the gulf in history, compared to the 1979 oil spill in the gulf. (The estimate have since been revised to show an estimated larger volume only in the last year)

I remember having a vacation planned that year in Sanibel Island, my dad, the head professor at the college here, asked if I was concerned about the oil that was going to be washing up on the beach during my vacation. I swear, he actually bought into the hysteria. Of course I told him he was nuts and no oil would make it there and he wanted to argue the point. Reality was: no oil made it there.

I think you would be hard pressed to find evidence of either oil spill in the Gulf in the next few years, since it only took a couple of years for the effects of the first big spill to completely go away.

The real funny thing, there is an estimated ten times as much oil from those spills that naturally seeps into the ocean every year, not even from man made operations. Where is the environmental disaster from all of that? Heck, 20-25 tons of oil leak into the ocean every day from just Santa Barbara's COP location, and that's been going on for over a hundred thousand years.
 
HardUp4HardWare said:
One word, Fukushima.

Lets clean that up 100% before we waste another dime on climate change.
Click to expand...

Already in progress. Easy method would be just bulldoze everything off the edge of the land. Once it hits the ocean it's all good, dilution is the solution to pollution.
 
BBA said:
The real funny thing, there is an estimated ten times as much oil from those spills that naturally seeps into the ocean every year, not even from man made operations. Where is the environmental disaster from all of that? Heck, 20-25 tons of oil leak into the ocean every day from just Santa Barbara's COP location, and that's been going on for over a hundred thousand years.
Click to expand...

This pretty much sums it up for me. I used to be worried about all the shit we dumped into the water in the Navy. But when you look at it and put some thought to it. It's just a drop in the ocean.
 
KarsusTG said:
This pretty much sums it up for me. I used to be worried about all the shit we dumped into the water in the Navy. But when you look at it and put some thought to it. It's just a drop in the ocean.
Click to expand...

It is, but you should still clean up after yourself.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
The "arrogant" argument is illogical. It's more arrogant to think your shit don't stink than it is to try and clean it up.
Click to expand...

See below, i never said my shit dont stink i just think man is pretty arrogant to think we could destroy the earth... we will destroy our selves long before the earth.

lcpiper said:
How do you know we aren't actually mitigating the severity of another problem all together?

Look, I just think man really overplays his impact on the earth. A couple of years ago the US was facing a major natural disaster of epic scale with the BP spill.

Where'd it go?

All life on this rock is carbon based.
Fossil based fuels are carbon based.
The raw material of those fuels occur naturally as a result of the planet's cycles and the cycle of life.
This planet has natural methods for dealing with oil spills we found out. It makes sense I suppose. I am sure there have been some doozies as the result of tectonic or volcanic activity in the oceans and I don't think there was anyone around to put their hole in the dyke back then.
I just think we overplay how big we really are and give ourselves way too much credit.

At worst we'll just do enough damage to kill ourselves.
Click to expand...
 
Twisting the climate argument into some hippy dippy save the earth crap misses the point. The point is to save humanity/life on the planet, not the freaking planet.
 
XamediX said:
If we're lucky we'll get to experience a real Godzilla sighting in 15 years.
Click to expand...

Good Godzilla or Evil Godzilla?
I never got that, how can he be good in one movie and bad in the next?

Maybe that is a long term effect of the radiation.

The clean up process they are undertaking is a sad joke.
The ice wall is fine for groundwater retention, but long term there is no plan.

One big earthquake and watch all those tanks full of toxic water collapse and the remaining structurally unsound reactor building as well. Then we are screwed x4 and a Royale with cheese.

I hope we can find a clean way to produce energy soon. Maybe someday I will build that magnet motor I have always wondered about...
 
BBA said:
Ummm...doesn't really give any advantages over regular U235 reactors and produces U233 in the process.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but it sounds like you have a Thor reactor will strike fear in the hearts of many because of all the calling down bolts of doom from the sky.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top