The HD 3850 AGP User Experience

evolucion8 said:
Somewhat I also hit the same wall, benchmarks and other games would run fine at 800Mhz core and 2Ghz ram, but in GRID the screen would intermitently flash and the animation stops, then it resets and the game continues to run just fine, I don't know if it was a core or RAM problem at those speeds, but I pushed them back to 790/1.90GHz and the problems went away, I'm currently using the official 8.10 cats drivers and everything is fine.
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I'd love to hit them speeds but I'm dozen of Mhz short in each case. I think the PowerColor's 6pin plug ain't feedin' enough juice
 
I used the 6 PCI-E connector and the 8 Pin PCI-E connector and made no difference, this card only uses between 95 and 105W of power, 75W provided by the 6 Pin connector plus 35W provided by the AGP port. I'm currently using the 8 Pin to reduce the stress on the already stressed motherboard just in case.
 
I did some investigation about the issue with the nForce 3 chipsets and ATi videocards and I will paste them all here, so there's a lot of different fixes, some may work, some not, give it a try. Hope it helps.

I found this fixes, some works for some, other won't, you will have to try them all.

Fix 1: This is what you do.

I have a ASUS A7N8X and 1650Pro 512agp.

If I try to install with the 1650, I get black screen of death. which is a BSOD.

It's a driver issue, for me the WDM RV530LE driver built in to Vista , well lets just say, it don't work.

Solution:

Obtain a old Agp like a ATI rage 32Mb or Mx 440.

Install vista on that card.

After you get into windows, install the ati catalyst and reboot.

Don't reboot, after you see the post screen, shut down and switch cards.

After windows starts it will say found new hardware..........let it do its thing, then when it says restart say no.

Now go to device manager and manually install the proper updated driver from ati.

reboot, it should be ok.

PS once you install the ATI drivers, it will never revert back to the default M$ RV530LE ***.

I use the default Vista agp driver.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/1381/vista2007060lz5.gif

Fix 2:

After the first install of the catalyst software (7.8) i was rewarded with the error 43 that would not go away.

No bios updates to be found or anything of that nature.

I tried disabling and reinstalling the cpu to agp bridge, the cpu to pci bridge, the pci to pci bridge... did nothing

tried previous drivers, tried going to single core, nothing

Went into the bios and found a setting for APCI 2.0 disabled, enabled it... did nothing

Tested it with the second gpu card from another system same error no matter what.

Vaped the install, (make sure, that you delete the partition and format it - preferrably in another machine before letting vista have a go at it... i've seen a lot of problems on re-installed vista because the drive wasn't clean)

reinstalled with second gpu in, worked fine, swapped to first gpu, installed catalyst 7.8 and have had no problems since.

My best guess is that the apci 2.0 thing was doing something when vista installed? (or maybe it just needed that drive scrubbed extra well before as the drive housed an earlier vista install on older hardware)

Fix 3:

Try to force the AGP driver installation (MCP driver whatever it's called) make sure that after reboot, drivers are updated, check every nVidia thing in the device manager and check their driver date, if it's not updated, use manual installation and force them, download it here http://download.nvidia.com/Windows/nForce/5.11/nForce_5.11_winxp2k_international_whql.exe

Fix 4:

If that doesn't work, uninstall all nVidia software/driver related and reinstall them again using the Windows Update instead, if it doesn't work, then use the updated nVidia software I gave you before (Like in fix 3) and do the other steps below.

Fix 5:

If your motherboard uses the ULI Chipset, this will fix it ftp://download.asrock.com/drivers/ULi/AGP/ULi_AGP_Patch.zip
, if is not ULI, skip this step, some ULI core are the same as nVIdia core, you may give it a try and do a normal driver installation, if it says that no supported hardware is found then skip this step and move to the next.

Fix 6:

Other fixes is disabling 1 core through the BIOS or as the following From the msconfig tool go to Boot tab and choose Advanced Options.

Check Number of processors and select "1".

Reboot and that's it.

Fix 7:

Another one that I found just in case that one core cannot be disabled is updating the ACPI driver under the Computer tab in device manager, or using Windows XP since the issues in only Vista related, it's a combination of hardware and driver problem, since the nForce 3 chipset predates the X2 processors. But nVidia claimed that the nForce 3 chipset is end of life and they will not bring drivers for Vista.
 
Hey guys, I am really hoping someone can at least point me in the direction to getting my Sapphire HD 3850 working in my setup.

For background here is the system:

Asus A7N8X Deluxe v2.0 nForce2 chipset motherboard
AMD Athlon 3200+ Barton processor (11x200fsb 2.2GHz)
2x1GB G.Skill DDR400 Dram
Not using on-board SATA, not overclocked, stock voltages, no extra PCI cards

Sapphire Radeon 3850 HD 512MB AGP
BIOS Version 010.079.000.002
BIOS Part Number 113-AB43300-104
BIOS Date 2008/03/17
Utilizing 2 seperate power connectors via the y-cable with a 550watt PS

Running XP SP3, I have tried nVidia chipset drivers 5.10 and 5.11, and ATi Drivers from 8.6 to 8.10 (including AGP hotfix drivers). I have left all of the ATi settings alone (so no overclocking), and the system is dead-nuts stable with a nVidia 5950 Ultra 128mb as well as a 7800GS CO 256mb.

Now with the 3850 installed any driver after 8.6 (so 8.7 and above) will cause the 3DMark06 HDR1 - Canyon Flight benchmark to reboot the PC without warning. Quake4 (1.4.2) is unstable as well (sometimes will run beautifully for a while, other times won't get past the first save point). With any driver installed (even 8.6) if I run Wall-E with AntiAliasing on it will reboot the PC as well once the game starts, but interestingly enough, with the 8.6 drivers 3DMark06 will run the aformentioned benchmark without problem.

I my add one more datapoint, if I underclock the system with a 166FSB everything is dead-nuts stable without any of the aforementioned problems, but you cn imagine what that does to an already CPU limited setup.

Is there a known problem with the nForce2 chipset and the 3850?

I have tried every single BIOS setting there is in every combination to try to get this thing stable at 200fsb, but to no avail.

I will say the damn thing rocks when it is running, otherwise I would just sell it off and stick with my 7800GS, but there is really no comparison between that and the 3850.

I have sent a tech support request to Sapphire, but they have yet to respond and it has been over a week. After doing some reading online, it is obvious they are one of the worst companies for customer support.

Does anyone know if it is a 3850 BIOS problem? I have not seen anyone else list the bios revision I am running and am wondering if the previous owner of my card (I picked it up 2nd hand) didn't flash some sort of beta BIOS or something in an attempt to overclock it or deal with some other issue or something. The previous ower states the card was perfect for him and when I put it in another machine I have on hand (a Biostar P4M80-M4 mobo with a P4 2.8GHz), it worked flawlessly at 200fsb (but it was at no-where near the speed it has in the A7N8X Deluxe machine)...

I just would like it to run stable, overclocking would be nice, but stability is a primary concern. I know my system will overclock quite high, and if the thing can run stable I am sure I can wick it up, but I have defaulted to 'stock' speeds on everything to try to sort this out first...

Any and all help would be appreciated (and I may mention it is NOT a power problem as the rails don't drop under load and I tried 2 other 650 and 700watt units just to verify, so I have done quite a bit of experimenting tryig to get this thing stable.)
 
Hi

Just an update on my rig - as in sig.

I used the ati tuning system to overlock the card and then overclocked the E7200. The board will only allow an o/c of 266 up to 300 on the fsb. One hz over and the whole thing will not boot - I had to reset the CMOS and start all over agin.

So there it is - a halfwway house rig with 10060 3dmarks - I have to say I am happy - I have installed the |Crysis demo and it runs a treat maxed out - admittedly I only use 1024x768 but it runs pretty solidly at 26fps and aboveon fraps. I am sure if I dropped a couple of the extreme eye candy options I could get far more.

I heard that That demo can be hacked to run in a DX10 mode - must research that!.

Basic thing is - the card is great - you really need a decent cpu to get the best out of it!
 
Well, can't offer much in terms of help... but yours is the first post I've seen that is identical to the problems I'm having with a very similar HW setup. So at least we both know we're not alone (and you've confirmed that my problems aren't unique, which is somewhat of a relief)...

I've been trying to get this card to work right since I bought it in August, and as you suspected, there is a bug related to ati3duag.dll that was introduced between Cat 8.6->8.7. This is the bug that pops out when you run 3DMark06, "Canyon Flight" in any Cat > 8.6. The crash isn't random though... it happens in specific intervals (at one of a few specific frames each time). It feels like it's on the edge of a buffer, and once the buffer is full and circles back to the start, this is where the crash occurs. That's just a guess though.

From what I gather, (and w/ confirmation from your post), this only happens on the NF2 Chipset. Maybe others are having this problem too though and just aren't reporting it.

If you enable memory dumps in windows, you'll be able to identify specific errors. (CP -> System -> Advanced -> Startup&Recovery -> Settings -> Write Debug Info. Set to Kernel Memory Dump, and uncheck Automatically Restart). You can analyze the dump with the widows debugging tools (http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/debugging/default.mspx, check out "Install...", and then "... Getting Started" to set up symbols. Then check the help files for analyzing a crash dump.

The crash above, for example, always comes down to one of two specific errors. Always a 0x0000007F (
UNEXPECTED_KERNEL_MODE_TRAP) originating from ati3duag.dll, one when I run low resolution (320x200):
DEFAULT_BUCKET_ID: DRIVER_FAULT
FAILURE_BUCKET_ID: 0x7f_d_ati3duag!pDdHslSharedMemCalloc+907c8
... and the other at higher resolutions with 8xAA and 16xAF:
FAILURE_BUCKET_ID: 0x7f_d_ati3duag!bGDI3DQueryDesktopCompositionSupport+ff428.

These are specific instruction calls made within ati3duag.dll that are causing the crash (or it may be the underlying driver framework that misconfigured the environment, and this call just got stuck in it). I'd suspect that they are two different bugs that are somehow related though, which makes things all the more complicated.

There's another bug that was introduced way back in Cat 7.7, and started with the X800 Pro that this 3850 replaced. I was stuck at Cat 7.6 with that card, but it seems it's still there after all this time. I can cause it in 3DMark01SE by 1) running the Lobby-LowDetail at 1280x1024 with 2xAA (high detail as well), and 2) running Advanced Pixel Shader Test at 1600x1200 (no AA or AF). This is the same error that occurs in 3DMark03 at the beginning of the Battle for Proxycon test. This is the 0x0000008E BSOD (KERNEL_MODE_EXCEPTION_NOT_HANDLED). The crash dump for this also points to ati3duag.dll, and comes down to the following:
DEFAULT_BUCKET_ID: DRIVER_FAULT
FAILURE_BUCKET_ID: 0x8E_BAD_IP_ati3duag!pDD4DISPDeriveSurface+17338

I can confirn that this problem can be 'fixed' by dropping the FSB to 166, but this is not a solution.

These are definitely ATI driver problems, based on the simple fact that in one version the problem did not exist as it did in the very next (with no other changes to the system I'm testing with other than the Catalyst driver package). The hardware is fully capable, but I would imagine there are some calls intended for PCI Express that AGP doesn't deal with well at all. (again, I can only guess)

If you can, would you mind trying to install the debugging tools and confirm that you can repeat the crashes listed above? If you have any problems getting started, just post back and I'll help you get things set up. I haven't really bothered pressing the issue w/ ATI since I could never confirm that the problems weren't specific to my system, but your post changes things a bit. If we can approach them with a test that will re-create an issue 100% of the time, maybe we can get it fixed.

It's also possible that we both have the same (mis)configuration, and we're both seeing the same issues because of it. I have, however, tried a LOT of different BIOS versions/BIOS settings/drivers/tweaks to get this card working, but still haven't found a solution for the above crashes. NVidia is certainly no help though, and AMD/ATI hasn't been far behind.

Any other NForce2/NForce3 AGP users out there with/without these problems? I'd be absolutely exstatic if there was a simple fix that I overlooked.
 
Torzi, thank you for the feedback, as with you I was certain that there is no way I was the only one that could be running into these issues, as I also did the "jump-through-the-hoops" game with drivers/BIOS/settings to get things to work...

Actually, I am thinking more and more it is, as you said, a driver issue, probably having to do with timings and a bug or two in the way the NF2 chipset deals with things, thus ATi and everyone else just points the finger and since nVidia is no longer supporting that chipset we are the ones out in the cold. But, by the same token, ATi has to take the responsibility of fixing the problem on thier end due to the fact that they are the ones still producing new products for this AGP bus and since they explicitly don't state that it will not work with NF2 chipsets (of course they won't that would reduce sales), they are required to make it work or buy the product back from those of us that can't get it to work because of thier lack of proper support.

I will see about loading the devtools to examine the dump files, or at the very least I can e-mail you my dump file so you can verify it as well... I haven't done low-level debugging in at least 6 years, and I know once I am on the case I won't be happy until I am trying to get the sourcecode to the nVidia GART and chipset as well as covering code issues with an ATi developer to get this hammered out. Kinda obsessive on my part once I get sucked into something... :p

I will say, I have been doing some stress testing on my setup and even though my processor runs extremely cool with the cooling I have on it, anything more than 205MHz FSB and I can start to get math errors running Orthos Beta (I am running it in conjunction with Furmark with the 7800GS CO in my machine)... With everything running at 200MHz FSB (11x200=2.2GHz), everything is completely stable with no issues at all...

Now, I am actually thinking that the chipset itself is barely able to manage a 200MHz FSB(400MHz DDR) and as such is why we start running into 'issues' in dealing with the AGP bus. Again this would support a simple 'fix' in the form of a driver tweak or even a NF2 chipset hotfix, but in this config it would seem to fall to ATi to be the ones to figure out the issue and put the fix into thier drivers. It just seems so damn suspicious that a 166MHZ FSB is rock stable, as if there needs to be another wait state or higher latency configuration in the chipset itself at 200MHz FSB.

I have started looking into the NF2 tweaks that were around about 3-4 years ago in regards to timings and such, but that information is getting harder to find and even harder to verify. Once I can compile a list of things to try out at least I can run the 3DMark06 Canyon Flight for a quick test to see if any of the tweaks actually work.
 
Kinda obsessive on my part once I get sucked into something...
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Hah... yeah I know all too much about that...

Are you able to run 3DMark06-Canyon Flight with the 8.6 Hotfix drivers though? I am able to do this (and all 06 tests) without any problems even at 1920x1200 with 8xAA and 16xAF. (Not particularly worried about speed here, but just the fact that it will complete without crashing windows). Still get the 0x8E crashes in 3DMark01, 03 even with 8.6 though.

People knock the 3DMark tests because they don't provide real-world comparisons across systems. Fact is though, all versions are testing basic DirectX interfaces dating back to DX7 with 3DMark2001. If you get a BSOD in any 3DMark test, it'll probably pop up if you play a game with that same DX interface call. (i.e. the Canyon Flight failure we're talking about in Cat > 8.6 will also crash Mass Effect with the same exact 0x7F BSOD at the same call in ati3duag).

ATi has to take the responsibility of fixing the problem on thier end due to the fact that they are the ones still producing new products for this AGP bus
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Well... this is where the problems arise. Technically, there was never a 3850 AGP card 'Built By ATI'. It's not very clear at all how these cards came to be, but it's obvious AMD/ATI doesn't want to support it now (officially). Even the manufacturers don't want to support it (Haven't seen an update from PowerColor since the Cat 8.6 drivers)

Hell, the manufacturers warranty is already expired for my PowerColor according to NewEgg. I just bought this thing 2 months ago. Only thing saving my ass is I didn't send in the rebate (defacing the original box), so I'm still covered by NewEgg for a year. All very sketchy and at times make me feel like I've been had. But hey, when she runs, she flies, and good god does she! This is the last best thing this system will see (and will make conversion to an HTPC a snap)

Now, I am actually thinking that the chipset itself is barely able to manage a 200MHz FSB(400MHz DDR) and as such is why we start running into 'issues' in dealing with the AGP bus.
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I'm not absolutely sure, but you may be reaching the limits of your motherboard. This NF2 Ultra 400 chip on my DFI runs pretty stable at 250MHz @ 1.7V (watercooled). It will go higher, but I'm getting to the point where heat is causing instability. What do you currently use to cool your NB? You might also try relaxing your memory timings, and bumping the voltages to both your RAM and the NB.

I think you're right though about the AGP latency issue... I think an extra clock cycle or two delay in the right spot might fix the problem entirely for that 0x8E. I don't think its that the chipset can't handle it, because it crashes the same way at 250 as it does at around 180. Just feels like there's a specific amount of delay required somewhere that's being violated.

With regards to the debugger, it's really very simple to set up, and the analysis you'll be doing only takes a few seconds. I've found it helps immensely when attempting to categorize BSODs, as you get specific info from each crash. If the info matches up across crashes, then you know immediately that it's the same problem (whereas random, unrelated crashed usually point to other hardware instabilities). definitely helps in ridding yourself of buggy drivers.

I have started looking into the NF2 tweaks that were around about 3-4 years ago in regards to timings and such, but that information is getting harder to find and even harder to verify. Once I can compile a list of things to try out at least I can run the 3DMark06 Canyon Flight for a quick test to see if any of the tweaks actually work.
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Actually, this is exactly what I've done. I've tried every documented tweak out there I could find, and even started messing with undocumented PCI registers in WPCREDIT (though I gave up on that... had a scratch drive with a clean XP install for testing, but it's like mukking around in the dark with a very sharp stick, hoping you don't poke that lion sleeping in the corner in the eye). I've also tried a variety of modded BIOS files from back in the day, and I still have a hand-full to go through.

I have a feeling that if we can't get drivers to fix these timing issues (which have been around for how long now???), we might be able to do it via the AGP controller/WPCREDIT. But it'll take more poking around in the dark, and there's no guarantee that changes take effect immediately.

But hey, you might find something I missed. Best tools I've found are NForce2Tweaker(0.25b) for mem+latency timings... search on ABIT forums, nTune (though only really useful for AGP and FSB +/- 10MHz)... get last version to work w/ NF2 from Guru3D, and of course WPCREDIT. I have a list of documented registers if you want it, but there's only a few more than the changes you can make w/ NF2Tweaker.

Went and read this entire post though, and I think I'll see if modding the VGA BIOS/Powerplay features helps at all. Doubtful, but hey, what's left to try.
 
Just upgraded my processor and yes...I was definitely limited by my 2.8C. I was able to aquire a 3.2E from the FS/FT forum for 30 bucks, overclocked it to 3.6 and whammo! I now get 9 more fps in far cry 2 while going from medium/low settings to high. Probably the cheapest substantial performance boost i've done. Theres life in this old rig yet...
 
Man what a thread, information overload. Can't keep it all sorted in upstairs. Being not very expert in these matters does not help. If I were may not of ordered the Power Color 3850 AGP for my kid's rig.

I am hoping someone can summarize what I may be looking at with his particular set of hardware with this card. And advise how to get it up and running stable if that is possible even,

The board an Epox 9nda3+ (nForce3), cpu: AMD X2 4400+ 939 (can go with a 4000+ 939 if that might reslove issues though his game is Oblivion and not sure if there would be a major performance hit going from a dual core to a single) and 2 gig 1024x2 Mushkin Blueline PC3200. OS XP Home 32bit

I had the same board in another comp, a bit back 4400+ and Crucial Ballistix instead of Mushkin, and was running an HIS X1950Pro IceQ3 Turbo w/o any issues, ran Oblivion pretty well, but sadly forgot what driver revision I was using.

I am hoping to overclock his cpu a bit, but only when he will be gaming, and have him run stock when doing more mundane things.

On the power front should have no problems, have an antec 550w basiq for the board, hardrives, optical, x-fi, and either an Ultra Power Partner 325w 26 amp or a TT Purepower Express 250w 21 amp drive bay aux/gpu psus for the 3850, or the HIS 1950 if i have give up and just go with that for him.

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated as need to have his rig ready by Thanksgiving when he comes to visit, on top of probably having to wrestle with his hardware, have to master the skill and art of Mod installation in Oblivion, Wryebash, Oblivion Mod Manager, he want FCOM, Higher Rez texture packs and a quite a few other mods and that all looks like a fairly steep learning curve and time consuming in itself.

Any help rendered this long distance dad in making his kid's day and a smile on his face in time will be very greatly appreciated.
 
I did some tweaks and using the hotfix gave me some nice improvements, there's very little difference using no anti aliasing, 2x anti aliasing and 4x anti aliasing, CPU bottleneck. I changed some settings in the benchmark because, for example, shadows, shows very little diference between high, and ultra high, and the performance impact is quite great. The tests are as the following;

DX9

Settings: Demo(Ranch Small), 1024x768 (60Hz), D3D9, Fixed Time Step(No), Disable Artificial Intelligence(No), Full Screen, Anti-Aliasing(4x), VSync(No), Overall Quality(Custom), Vegetation(Very High), Shading(Ultra High), Terrain(Ultra High), Geometry(Ultra High), Post FX(High), Texture(Ultra High), Shadow(High), Ambient(High), Hdr(Yes), Bloom(Yes), Fire(Very High), Physics(High), RealTrees(Very High)

Average Results
Average Framerate: 17.90
Max. Framerate: 27.27
Min. Framerate: 12.83

DX10 with 255 AGP latency;

Settings: Demo(Ranch Small), 1024x768 (60Hz), D3D10, Fixed Time Step(No), Disable Artificial Intelligence(No), Full Screen, Anti-Aliasing(4x), VSync(No), Overall Quality(Custom), Vegetation(Very High), Shading(Ultra High), Terrain(Ultra High), Geometry(Ultra High), Post FX(High), Texture(Ultra High), Shadow(High), Ambient(High), Hdr(Yes), Bloom(Yes), Fire(Very High), Physics(High), RealTrees(Very High)

Average Results
Average Framerate: 18.19
Max. Framerate: 28.67
Min. Framerate: 12.49

Identical as before, DX10 but with 64 AGP Latency;

Average Results
Average Framerate: 18.81
Max. Framerate: 27.86
Min. Framerate: 12.91

Same as above but at 1280x1024

Average Results
Average Framerate: 16.70
Max. Framerate: 26.26
Min. Framerate: 11.57

Same as above but without FSAA

Average Results
Average Framerate: 19.23
Max. Framerate: 29.38
Min. Framerate: 13.26

Same as above but at DX9 and 4xFSAA

Average Results
Average Framerate: 25.81
Max. Framerate: 35.71
Min. Framerate: 9.96

Same as above but without FSAA

Average Results
Average Framerate: 18.14
Max. Framerate: 27.18
Min. Framerate: 12.01

Even though the differences between both aren't great, the game felt much smoother with less pauses and hiccups using the 64 AGP latency setting. Funny enough, the game runs slighly faster in DX10 than in DX9, it's less erratic and has more consistent FPS across the level, the first game that shows some promise made by Microsoft years ago.
 
GonzoP said:
Damn Artex I really hope the second card works out for ya. I'm loving the Powercolor myself. I only might slightly regret it since its a 6pin versus a 8pin pcie which is going to limit my OC but I do like the ZeroTherm Cooler.
The fact yours didn't work in the P4 rig hopefully means you just got a bad card.
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Well, I got my replacement Sapphire 3850 today..and... it's awesome! I'm coming from a 7800GS+ (7900GT core) and the difference is night and day. I have an Athlon 4400+ X2 Toledo @ 2.2 ghz, 2GB Corsair PC3500 DDR memory, and an MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum s939 board, with a 700W OCZ power supply. I cannot believe how much different the performance is - I'm getting 40-70fps at 1280x1024 w/ 16x AF and no AA on games such as Grid, COD4, Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway and Dead Space. I can now run the original Crysis at high detail settings across the board at ~30 fps+ - and these are at stock card speeds. I am 100% satisfied with the upgrade and feel much better about my aging AGP system!
 
RedBiker said:
Man what a thread, information overload. Can't keep it all sorted in upstairs. Being not very expert in these matters does not help. If I were may not of ordered the Power Color 3850 AGP for my kid's rig.

I am hoping someone can summarize what I may be looking at with his particular set of hardware with this card. And advise how to get it up and running stable if that is possible even,

The board an Epox 9nda3+ (nForce3), cpu: AMD X2 4400+ 939 (can go with a 4000+ 939 if that might reslove issues though his game is Oblivion and not sure if there would be a major performance hit going from a dual core to a single) and 2 gig 1024x2 Mushkin Blueline PC3200. OS XP Home 32bit

I had the same board in another comp, a bit back 4400+ and Crucial Ballistix instead of Mushkin, and was running an HIS X1950Pro IceQ3 Turbo w/o any issues, ran Oblivion pretty well, but sadly forgot what driver revision I was using.

I am hoping to overclock his cpu a bit, but only when he will be gaming, and have him run stock when doing more mundane things.

On the power front should have no problems, have an antec 550w basiq for the board, hardrives, optical, x-fi, and either an Ultra Power Partner 325w 26 amp or a TT Purepower Express 250w 21 amp drive bay aux/gpu psus for the 3850, or the HIS 1950 if i have give up and just go with that for him.

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated as need to have his rig ready by Thanksgiving when he comes to visit, on top of probably having to wrestle with his hardware, have to master the skill and art of Mod installation in Oblivion, Wryebash, Oblivion Mod Manager, he want FCOM, Higher Rez texture packs and a quite a few other mods and that all looks like a fairly steep learning curve and time consuming in itself.

Any help rendered this long distance dad in making his kid's day and a smile on his face in time will be very greatly appreciated.
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Your rig sounds very similar to mine - almost identical in terms of hardware. I just got the sapphire flavor 3850 a few days ago and I'm absolutely loving it. I've heard that the CPU helps quite a bit, so I would stick with the dual core vs. the single. The card is VERY power hungry as well, so the more juice the better. I'm running the card at 700/1800 stable with the stock cooler. The coolers are definitely better on the HIS & PowerColor, so if it's up to you if you want to overclock the card. You might have better luck with one of those, unless you want to mod the Sapphire with a better cooler. My LCD only supports 1280x1024, I can now play several games with max settings at this resolution. Even at stock speeds, the card is crazy powerful. I am also using XP Pro 32-bit, and have no intention of moving to Vista/DX10 - especially since the NF3 chipset isn't supported. I've heard of many issues with dual core systems + s939 + Vista. For $129 bucks, I've definitely added some more life into an aging AGP box.
 
I did some comparisons with Devil May Cry using the 8.10 Stalker/Far Cry 2 hotfix and this are the results.

Everything in ultra high at DX10 with 4x FSAA at 1024x768

Level 1: 84.80
Level 2: 60.19
Level 3: 97.34
Level 4: 56.88

Everything in ultra high at DX10 with 8xFSAA at 1280x1024

Level 1: 59.34
Level 2: 40.00
Level 3: 71.68
Level 4: 44.41

Will bring some scores against a Dual Core setup with Pentium Dual Core E2200 at 2.73GHz, 2GB DDR800 and Visiontek HD 3870 with 835MHz GPU Core and RAM at stock later.

Everything in ultra high at DX10 with 4x FSAA at 1024x768

Level 1: 104.12
Level 2: 70.33
Level 3: 134.40
Level 4: 78.39

Later will bring scores with higher resolutions.
 
Artex said:
Well, I got my replacement Sapphire 3850 today..and... it's awesome! I'm coming from a 7800GS+ (7900GT core) and the difference is night and day. I have an Athlon 4400+ X2 Toledo @ 2.2 ghz, 2GB Corsair PC3500 DDR memory, and an MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum s939 board, with a 700W OCZ power supply. I cannot believe how much different the performance is - I'm getting 40-70fps at 1280x1024 w/ 16x AF and no AA on games such as Grid, COD4, Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway and Dead Space. I can now run the original Crysis at high detail settings across the board at ~30 fps+ - and these are at stock card speeds. I am 100% satisfied with the upgrade and feel much better about my aging AGP system!
Click to expand...

Nice Artex. Yeah the ole agp got some life yet. I was about ready to retire my old agp system, especially since my newer rig is so much better. But the 3850agp specifically enabled me to continue using it a second gaming machine for the kids. Admittedly, they are hooked on Spore right now and that doesn't need much. But if the boy ever wants to try FO3 or FC2 or even warhead since its just a 1280x1024 he can.

That seems to be a common theme here too. Many agp systems are mated with 1280x1024 displays, makes sense though really
 
GonzoP said:
OK yeah that's about the same res as 1280x1024 is OK. 4xaa how much does that hit it down?
Click to expand...

(far cry 2 bench tool -> ranch small)
all settings medium
shaders = very high
HDR
1440x900
4xAA


(aggregate)
Average Framerate: 21.00
Max. Framerate: 31.90
Min. Framerate: 14.15


// The min is clearly seen during the fire portion of the test, the fire definitly seems to be multithreaded.

// I actually the card seems to be VERY playable at 2xAA and though it doesn't cause much of a performance hit I don't play w/ 4X AA.

//The major bottleneck I have found in gameplay is setting the textures to "high" It seems I run out of framebuffer because the game starts "jerking" when It goes to load textures. I wonder if a 1gb version would help alleviate this


EDIT: Adding other AA levels

noAA
Average Framerate: 22.78
Max. Framerate: 33.38
Min. Framerate: 15.39


2xAA
Average Framerate: 21.56
Max. Framerate: 31.38
Min. Framerate: 15.01

4xAA
Average Framerate: 21.00
Max. Framerate: 31.90
Min. Framerate: 14.15

8xAA
Average Framerate: 20.87
Max. Framerate: 31.34
Min. Framerate: 13.89
 
FalconSS said:
(far cry 2 bench tool -> ranch small)
all settings medium
shaders = very high
HDR
1440x900
4xAA


(aggregate)
Average Framerate: 21.00
Max. Framerate: 31.90
Min. Framerate: 14.15


// The min is clearly seen during the fire portion of the test, the fire definitly seems to be multithreaded.

// I actually the card seems to be VERY playable at 2xAA and though it doesn't cause much of a performance hit I don't play w/ 4X AA.

//The major bottleneck I have found in gameplay is setting the textures to "high" It seems I run out of framebuffer because the game starts "jerking" when It goes to load textures. I wonder if a 1gb version would help alleviate this
Click to expand...

Good stuff. Yeah that'll be the day. A 1gb agp card :D.
 
just re-ran a test and it seems before my vid-card clocks were to high...

this is same settings as before w/ 2xAA

Average Framerate: 25.44
Max. Framerate: 37.29
Min. Framerate: 17.97



before:

Average Framerate: 21.56
Max. Framerate: 31.38
Min. Framerate: 15.01

I think there will be a difference now at AA levels but I am not going to run it again unless requested
 
Yeah don't bother. We're still probably only taking a few odd frames. Good feedback though
 
Hi folks,
I'm contemplating an AGP upgrade (FX5900, yeah I know), and the 3850 is obviously the king of the hill at this point. However, I am very wary of all the driver problems I've read about. My system is an Asus P4B533 (Intel 845E chipset) with a P4. I'm mostly looking to run some older games at much higher resolutions, since I recently got a 26" WS monitor (examples: Call of Duty 1/2, MOHAA, Neverwinter Nights, etc). It seems like most of the problems I've read about have been with Nforce or Via chipsets. How likely am I to get this card running in my system without major difficulty?

I've also read several accounts stating that OpenGL performance is actually worse than even low-end GeForce cards. Is this the case for all systems, or just ones with driver issues? Since many of the games I'd like to run use OpenGL, if the performance is poor in these titles, the upgrade would be pretty useless to me.

Finally, I have an Antec 450W power supply, which seems to be on the low end of what could run this card, so I do realize I'd probably have to upgrade that too.

Thanks in advance!
 
how many amps does the 12v rail have?

i think installation on intel setups is a no brainer. i just did a fresh install and used the 8.10 agp hotfix drivers and that was it. as far as the openGL issues....i cannot speak to that. what games use openGL that you play? i play bioshock, ET:QW, Doom3 and the exapnsion, Sins of a Solar Empire, F.E.A.R., HL2, UT2K3 and 2k4, UT3 and i see no performance issues.
 
God_Of_Death said:
how many amps does the 12v rail have?
Click to expand...

20A vs. the recommended 30A. Seems dicey to me, but I've seen people post that their supply works with less.

God_Of_Death said:
i think installation on intel setups is a no brainer. i just did a fresh install and used the 8.10 agp hotfix drivers and that was it. as far as the openGL issues....i cannot speak to that. what games use openGL that you play? i play bioshock, ET:QW, Doom3 and the exapnsion, Sins of a Solar Empire, F.E.A.R., HL2, UT2K3 and 2k4, UT3 and i see no performance issues.
Click to expand...

Excellent, nice to hear. I guess MOHAA and Call of Duty 1/2 were the games I was concerned about. There were reports in the AMD forum that MOHAA doesn't work. I know it's weird to run such an old game, but it chugs at my monitor's native resolution.
 
I have MOHAA and I can give that a try later this week and report back.

Yea, you might be able to get away with 20amps. i think they recomend 30amps just to cover their bases. what does the rest of your system look like?
 
God_Of_Death said:
I have MOHAA and I can give that a try later this week and report back.
Click to expand...

Awesome, that would be much appreciated.

God_Of_Death said:
Yea, you might be able to get away with 20amps. i think they recomend 30amps just to cover their bases. what does the rest of your system look like?
Click to expand...

My system is a pretty vanilla P4 Northwood rig. I'm currently running a P4 1.6GHz @ 2.4GHz, but have a 3 GHz HT CPU that I'll drop in when I get a chance. That's the highest end CPU my motherboard supports, but it is pretty OC-friendly if I feel like doing that. 2GB RAM. 2 DVD drives, and 2 HDDs, although one of the HDDs will be removed shortly.
 
Orange Crush said:
Awesome, that would be much appreciated.



My system is a pretty vanilla P4 Northwood rig. I'm currently running a P4 1.6GHz @ 2.4GHz, but have a 3 GHz HT CPU that I'll drop in when I get a chance. That's the highest end CPU my motherboard supports, but it is pretty OC-friendly if I feel like doing that. 2GB RAM. 2 DVD drives, and 2 HDDs, although one of the HDDs will be removed shortly.
Click to expand...

no, MOHAA crashed everytime. time to play newer games maybe?
 
Orange Crush said:
Awesome, that would be much appreciated.



My system is a pretty vanilla P4 Northwood rig. I'm currently running a P4 1.6GHz @ 2.4GHz, but have a 3 GHz HT CPU that I'll drop in when I get a chance. That's the highest end CPU my motherboard supports, but it is pretty OC-friendly if I feel like doing that. 2GB RAM. 2 DVD drives, and 2 HDDs, although one of the HDDs will be removed shortly.
Click to expand...

Yeah you better drop that 3GHz in there. The 3850 is going to be handicapped by any P4. 2.4 is crying, if you can get that 3Ghz up to 3.4Ghz it will help a bit, still a bottleneck but less so than at 2.4
 
God_Of_Death said:
no, MOHAA crashed everytime. time to play newer games maybe?
Click to expand...

Good to know, thanks. I had read the Quake engine games didn't play well with Catalyst.

I play newer games on consoles, so I'll probably just pass on the 3850. I doubt my PSU could handle it anyway.
 
Hey guys quick question. I got the powercolor 3850. A buddy of mine has an older P4 agp rig. He'd like to hook one up too after seeing what my Junior rig became with it. Egg has the Sapphire Open Box for $84.99. The Sapphire has an 8pin pcie though, whereas my Powercolor has a six. Since its open box, he'd probably just get the card and nothing else. I know a ton of places that sell 6pin pcie adapters but cannot find 8 pin adapters.
If he goes with the Open Box would he be ok just using a 6 pin adapter? Or does anyone know where to get an 8 pin pcie adapter? Thanks guys.
 
Im very very sure I saw that converter on newegg.com

hate to say Im 100% sure so Ill just say Im 90% sure.. I looked them up when I bought my card just incase mine didnt come with one.

Also its from Hyper (sp) but Im pretty sure Xoxide also has them. ... dont know if its only for hyper/hiper ?? power supplies or will work with others.. rather be unsure than to give wrong info.
 
the other day i decided to watch a movie , and noticed that there was a light grey spattering of pixels on the screen. you could only see them in the black bars on the movie.. i did a test and set my windows desktop background to a dark black color and the light grey spattering of pixels could be seen on the entire screen.. i tried another dvi cable and had same problem.. but if i move the dvi cable to the other dvi port on the card, it dissapears.. could this card have a faulty tmds transmitter on it? or is it a driver problem of some kind.. i'm using the catalist 8.11 official drivers.. Also, if i use a dvi to vga adapter plug the corruption is not seen on that port.
 
Bought a Sapphire 3850 agp from Newegg yesterday for $124. I can now play COD4 and COD WaW at 1280x1024 or higher with most things maxed out.
Bioshock,FEAR,Call Of Juarez,Dirt,Stalker, just about everything is now a major improvement in fps AA AF and resolution increses.
My first ATI card since the one that came in my IBM aptiva.
Using the cat 8:10s with hotfix. I know nothing about ATI's but this is the best $125 I've spent in a long time.
I had a I7 system in my shopping basket at the Egg but they were out of the Antec nine hundred case and I ran into this card.
I overclocked the hell out of it already.
If it blows up the Nine hundred cases are now in so ,oh well
I had a 7600GT in my P4northwood 2.8@ 3.1
Antec 430tp running the Radeon,2 hhd and pile of stuff no problem.
Good imige quality with this card,a little quirky compared to Nvidias though.
 
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