The Great Technological Divide

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compulsivephreek

Weaksauce
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May 23, 2005
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Okay, I know this is an enthusiasts forum, and this thread is gonna upset a lot of people that come here, but this is very relevant. What better place to point out a current trend in hardware than this web site and it's forum.

The past year or so have seen several new technologies emerge in relation to PC hardware. Specifically PCI-E, SLI, SATA, dual core CPU, and the like. It goes without saying that changes and advances are expected and known to occur. But, the power of computers has grown to the point that it becomes questionable whether an upgrade is really necessary. Of course, eventually we all have to upgrade, because the software demands a certain ability of the platform to function. However, computer hardware has advanced to the point where yesterdays technology is valid for a longer period of time. Except for the newest games and other intensive applications, a 1 GHz computer with enough ram can still do a lot of work. The 1 GHz CPU was realesed in early 2000, that was five years ago. When the 486 was released in the early 90's it was valid for less than five years, thus the newer hardware has a longer life.

Now comes PCI-E. New video cards. More power ? buy two video cards. To buy the newest cards you have to buy a new motherboard, new CPU, and probably new ram. That is quite an investment. That is a lot of new hardware all at one time. This leaves the computer user with a tough question to answer, does the benefit justify the cost ? or, can they afford such a huge upgrade at once ? At no other time in recent computing history can I recall such a huge gap in technology.

My point is, many people here at Hardocp can and will upgrade. They make big bucks, no big deal. However, there are many many gamers who would love to upgrade, but simply do not have the $1000 to jump that large a gap to the other side. What do they do ? how do they feel when they pick up the latest copy of Maximum PC and all they see is PCI-E, Athlon 64, dual core benchmarks, etc. They are left in the dust. They are the PC poor, the ones who spent their hard earned money two summers ago only to see it now worth almost nothing. What can they do ? upgrade every six months and sell their old stuff on forums so they can still get a little something ?

This latest gap in technology has alienated many users I am sure. It is the biggest so far. Maybe the next one will be spread out more evenly so enthusiasts don't have to buy all at once, and while the prices are high. I usually buy a few generations back, and get really good deals. But PCI-E is way off on the next mountain top for me, and it's a long walk to get there. Until then AGP x8 will have to do just fine for now.
 
Not exactly sure what your rant is, but welcome to the real world. People consider gaming and computers to be a hobby. And as such, they will spend money on it, some more than others. Only advice I could give is, get a higher paying job, or manage your money better.

 
my point is not everyone can afford to spend that much money at once. The PCI-E slot screwed everyone that is on a tight budget. The point is, there is too much change at once. There are no PCI-E socket A motherboards that I have read about, have you ? There are lots of hobbyists that are 16, they don't have hundreds of dollars that are disposable. Yes, you can stll play EQ II on a socket A computer, but to even look at a current magazine is a waste of time for them. So the gap between those who can afford the jump and those who cannot has become wider. Simple point.
 
I understand exactly what you're trying to say, but like the above user stated, owning any of the peripherals at all is really a luxury, if people change their priorities and make computer gaming a priority at most it is still a hobby for enthusiasts.

Buying these parts isn't a necessity, for school work or otherwise, you buy them because you want to, and much the same you do with the games you purchase.

Honestly if one is looking to be able to play new and upcomming titles for an extended period of time and not have to worry about ugrading hardware, then those individuals should look into console gaming. This isn't an insult, I am playing 5 games currently (not to be confused with simultaneously), none of which are computer games. The ever changing nature of computer based systems should have been long accepted by those on a budget but you have to understand, the same reason why these games are being played on 3k systems and why 16 year olds can't afford these systems is because these games were designed for a different demographic. People who can't afford games or hardware in the first place clearly (and obviously) aren't what people whom are in a commercial buisness are after. Not only that but statistically speaking most video games are played by individuals whom are far older than 16, most of which can afford at least some upgrading on a reasonable basis (once every 1.5 years or so).

It's ethereal, it's something that you're going to have to accept, no one or anything short of a nuclear war, or a stock market crash as bad as the great depression is going to change it.
 
I wouldn't say that the technological gap has alienated many users. I'd like to see you back that statement up.

And also, all this new technology gives all of us something to strive for. When i was 16 i couldn't afford the latest and greatest hardware, but i saved my money, bought what i could, and asked for things for Christmas and my birthday. I understood that i wasn't going to be able to play FarCry at max settings with my Athlon XP 2100 and 5700 video card. But that's why game makers let you turn the settings down. Games are still fun at lower settings. Eventually i was able to get a higher paying job and save up enough money to build myself a great gaming computer. Now it's out of date, but i can still play many games at their max settings and even those i can't, like FEAR, are still great fun.

I consider the need to upgrade to be just a natural part of my hobby. There will always be new sockets, new communication buses, new operating systems. It helps to plan ahead and see what's coming out in the next year or so but eventually you get stuck with what you have and gotta upgrade more than just the video card.

There have always been those who have been able to drop $3000 on a high end computer and those who can't. Everyone fits somewhere within that range.

Your point about a 1GHz chip still being able to do a lot is certainly valid. I don't recommend a high end machine dripping in RAM and graphics power to a mom who needs something for her kid to do homework on.
 
I am glad to see older folks playing games, I am not 16 anymore, over twice that and I enjoy them quite a bit. I use an XP3200 and 6800 with 1 GB dual channel PC3200, and everything runs fine, EQ II, HL2, FarCry, etc.

Maybe it's just me, maybe I should just go out and get an Athlon 64 motherboard with PCI-E and be done with it. But I won't for a few reasons. 1) I don't need to yet 2) I am too stubborn, I won't give in and waste money where I don't need to, even though it would be quite fun to walk into the local shop and see how much the lady can knock off the price because I have been there a few times before 3) my wife would shoot me.

One more comparison. In 1997 AGP and the LX chipset were released, but there were other choices. You could buy an AGP x2 motherboard that still ran your socket 7 cpu and your EDO ram. I know, ancient history, but it was possible to keep your old ram and old cpu, but just buy a new motherboard and video card. Now if you have AGP and want PCI-E video you have to buy whole new architecture. I am quite sure there are millions of users who are contemplating the same thing, and a lot will wait. That's a lot of people who will sit tight and not spend a dime except on a used X800 XT or maybe some more ram rather than spend hundreds. A lot of people read on line reviews and wonder where they fit in. They don't. Until they spend the bucks, they are out of the circle of those who have taken the plunge and skipped lunch for a month or two so they can buy into it too.

Then you have the issue of planned obsolesence, there may be some of that behind the scenes. But I am not going to comment on that, just my original point. PCI-E is still way far off in the distance for many.

Thanks for the good debate.
 
FWIW, i remember there was a company that made a motherboard that let you use PCI-E or AGP, but i don't remember who. I remember tho that the performance wasn't so great.
 
zoobaby said:
Not exactly sure what your rant is, but welcome to the real world. People consider gaming and computers to be a hobby. And as such, they will spend money on it, some more than others.
Click to expand...

Very true. Take a look at Golf. How many people spend hundreds of dollars on the perfect club (just one club). There's really no difference.

Many amatuer golfers spend $500 on a driver. Gamers will spend $500 on a top end videoboard. At least with videoboards you WILL get a better experience in playing games because you can turn on more options and get higher framerates. On the other hand, a golfer won't necessarily get a better game after paying thousands on new clubs.
 
beanman101283 said:
FWIW, i remember there was a company that made a motherboard that let you use PCI-E or AGP, but i don't remember who. I remember tho that the performance wasn't so great.
Click to expand...

Yeah the performance was about 5% less than what the nForce chipsets were seeing, iirc. As an alternative to the 'Expensive' upgrade path, it is not too bad.

I think the OP is starting to get computer evny but doesn't want to or can't afford to shell the bucks out. I feel his pain as I am in a similar position. However, I think he is criticizing the industry more than anything. In this I believe he is wrong.

The industry is being forced by gamers/programmers/enthusiasts to open up the bottlenecks. As they are opening these bottlenecks up, new busses and standards are being developed. In some cases these are backward compatible, some are not. Examples: USB1.1 to USB2.0 (Backward Compatible) and PCI to PCIe (Not compatible) Now AGP to PCIe is just a shift of which bus to use for video, similar to when PCI video moved to AGP.

Other new industry changes upcoming that will upset people is when AMD release an A64 that has a DDR2 memory controller in it. If you want DDR2 speeds you will have to get a new proc, mobo and memory. (I am saving my pennies for this.)
 
on one hand you are saying it is not necessary to upgrade..

but on the other you are saying that it is... because otherwise you will get jealous or feel left out if you read a maximum pc..

like you, i still have a socket A system.. i can afford to get new hardware and have though about it.. but i haven't because i don't care.. it's not worth the money.. the only thing i buy anymore is more hard drives..

a big part of it is marketing and sales.. a lot of people can afford the new stuff and never even come close to utilizing the full capabilities of their hardware.. games are teh biggest exception.. but as was pointed out before, they are still fun at 1024x768.. i wish i could afford nice cars and other expensive things.. but i can't, so even though i would like to be in some of those hobbies, i can't afford it..

also, waht is funny is how i bought my computer 1.5 years ago.. my cpu has gone up in price.. i was never cheaper than when i got it.. $77 for an xp-m 2200+.. ok.. i lied, it was $75 once.. my cd burner was $30, maybe it is $25 now.. each time i bought a hard drive, it was about $10 less for the same one.. basically every 6 months or so..
so yeah.. except for my bh-5.. it all costs the same or 10% less at best..

if you can afford to, then upgrade, if not.. don't worry about it.. there are other things that are more important anyways.. play your games at lower settings, it won't kill you..

and i don't know where i am going with this anymore..
 
I know how you feel, having to look at a magazine and dreaming of that perfect piece of hardware and wishing you could have that...

...some folks do the same with Playboy, Maxim, etc:D


I've always turned my stuff over every 6 months or so. I set aside a few bucks each month for upgrades, and then sell off my old stuff before the value drops too much. I usually have enough between the 2 to upgrade (not X2 CPU, but 939 CPU and not 7800GTX upgrade, but 6800GS)

My new rig is fine for 99.9% of the games out there and I can still recycle my RAM till AMD goes DDR2
 
I want to thank everyone for not flaming me, and also for their input and feelings about this subject. Nah, no upgrade envy, just making a point about the pace at which hardware changes. But just now I read about an AGP version of the X1800, so their is hope for our old motherboards. Ha, old. Like maybe two years ? sheesh. Check this out, seems that ATI and some vendors did the right thing.

http://www.diamondmm.com/X1800256PCI.php
 
compulsivephreek said:
I want to thank everyone for not flaming me, and also for their input and feelings about this subject. Nah, no upgrade envy, just making a point about the pace at which hardware changes. But just now I read about an AGP version of the X1800, so their is hope for our old motherboards. Ha, old. Like maybe two years ? sheesh. Check this out, seems that ATI and some vendors did the right thing.

http://www.diamondmm.com/X1800256PCI.php
Click to expand...


No worries on the no flame. There are many people in your position. My position is only slightly better as I have a socket 939 pin cpu already.

If ATI is smart, they can steal some market from nVidia by putting out high end cards in AGP.
 
The thing to do is just accept that you will always be behind. I'm almost 23, my parents bought our first computer (386sx 25mhz) back in 91, and I have never even seen a brand-new, top of the line PC. My gaming comp is running an athlon 64 3000+ and a 6600gt, combined value about $300 (the ram is old, 2x 256 ddr400). You can never get ahead, so I tend to focus a little more on console gaming. I may never know the experience of buying a brand new, just released cpu, but it's not hard to spend $30 on the newest DS game. I tend to upgrade every 18 months or so...to one year old hardware. By that time I can get last year's games for $20 anyway. Staying a year behind is a great way to save a lot of cash. Besides, you are right you can do a lot with an older machine. I still use my dual celly 366 for web browsing, chatting, etc. There's a lot of fun to be had with old parts because it's not hard to buy a bunch up and build an older machine from scratch. Those are good boxes to challenge youself on too because they're not critical. That's why my dual runs linux while I keep the gaming machine on win xp. who cares if the dual screws up/goes down? i built it completely from pulls and freebies.
 
thats what I have too, a dual celeron for Linux. yes I agree, the older stuff is way fun to built and work on, my best is a SLI vintage 1998, TNT with two V2 12 MB cards. It runs with a celeron 300a OC to 450, 256, 10 GB, and an BX board. Fun stuff. But the dual cpu and Linux is very nice, has a Matrox G400 that looks really really nice, the computer runs great. I am slowly converting over to Linux, now I just wish all games came with native Linux support. Then I would go Linux 100 percent. Yeah, I am glad things are moving forward and new hardware, just seems this past year has been a huge jump forward.
 
Built the computer in my sig 2.5 years ago? Spent around 1k on it, and it still plays all the newest games fine. Doom 3, Quake 4, Battlefield 2, FEAR, WoW, NFS:MW

Yea I don't play at 16x12 res with max settings, but it does fine on my 17" monitor at 10x7 with medium settings. Not bad for a college student working part time. Yea when im making the big bucks i'll be buying two sli cards and a 24' flatscreen, but it's not mandatory too game. Just a luxury
 
....the system in my sig is way off the "cutting edge" but it run whatever I want to run, as fast as I want it to. Would something "new" be "better"....?? Perhaps, but I don't feel a compelling need to upgrade. Maybe a generation or two down the road, for sure, but not at this time.

FWIW - B.B.S.
 
I see what the OP is saying. As he pointed out, the's just saying it to the wrong crowd. I enjoy a game of BF2 but I am the most casual of gamers. I'm on my PC a lot but hardly play any games.

As a result, just this year I bought a Skt 754 3700+ and am using the budget Chaintech VNF-350. Couple that with the 6800GT AGP and the 1GB of Kingston Hyper X I paid $255 for back in Feb 2004 and I'm happy as can be.

I can just sit back and laugh at the people constantly struggling to keep up with all of the new things coming out. The ones asking "Should I spend the extra $xxx for the 4400+ or just get the 4000+ and overclock blah blah blah."

Truth is they wouldn't know the difference nor will anyone else excpet for those people that feel the need to post benchmarks from 10 different programs just to try and be e-cool. It's funny, just sit back and laugh at these people with me.
 
to much false info in this thread

to say ur comp is outdated and useless after 6 months is a highly uneducated statement

when i wanted more hardware, i worked 70 hour weeks. It gets annoying seeing people cry about people being "rich" when they wont work for it
 
does not compute contradiction, so do you use older stuff or do you bust your hinie for $5/hr just to get a new proc ? so you are the only person who has worked a 70 hr week ? you need to be more pacific
 
compulsivephreek said:
This latest gap in technology has alienated many users I am sure. It is the biggest so far. Maybe the next one will be spread out more evenly so enthusiasts don't have to buy all at once, and while the prices are high. I usually buy a few generations back, and get really good deals. But PCI-E is way off on the next mountain top for me, and it's a long walk to get there. Until then AGP x8 will have to do just fine for now.
Click to expand...
Why oh why did they EVER get rid of the ISA bus?!? I mean, NOW I CAN'T UPGRADE AND STILL USE MY ISA CARD!!!

New technologies come every few years. PCI-Express is superior in every way to AGP, as is apparent by the way nVidia and ATI both dropped AGP as soon as PCI-Express surfaced. If we were to continue supporting old technologies, think of what the hardware scene would look like 20 years from now! New comes in, old goes out, if you don't like it then go get an XBOX 360 which will get you more bang for your money than any PC ever will.
 
yeah, I know new stuff is always on the horizon. I appreciate that. I like new stuff. Just not all at the same time. The other point I have, and this is more important, is that most people, like >95 percent, don't need anything more than 1 GHz, 1 GB ram, 80 GB, and 32 bit color on their favorite monitor. And that includes any Linux version, and even Vista. You could run just fine on a computer like that for a long time, if well maintained and managed. PC World says 2 GB ram for Vista, sATA with NCQ, and a 128 MB DX 9 card. Bull. Total BS. NFW is that true. Maybe the video card okay, I bet a FX5200 would do fine, but 2 GB ram for an OS ? What does sata have anything to do with an OS ? nothing. My point is, be happy with what you have because you don't HAVE to upgrade like the industry and the population at large say, just buy what you require. That's it. Give the rest to someone in need or a charity.
 
o rly?

people (teenie weenies) whine about not being able to afford things when they're the ones going 75 mph in the highway to get from their home to school and vice versa eating up their gas ffs. gg.

-J.
 
another does not compute, wtf are you saying ? please write in full sentences, this is America ! sheesh

okay, I will drop this thread. In the long run folks will realize that upgrading just for the sake of it is plain silly. I know this is Hardocp and there are many hardcore users here, but you guys and gals are the 5 percent that does thrive on the cutting edge. Have fun, always.
 
Oh really?

People (mostly teenagers) whine about not being able to afford anything when they're the ones wasting gas by stepping on the gas to 75 mph unnecessarily. Not only that, they spend their money on DVD's, junk food, beer, and super cool clothes. Quit the whining. Good game (just a gamer's term - doesn't have to make sense. :)).

BTW, I do agree. It's really all business. You can choose to partake in it or not. But there is a downside should we slow our inventions down - we wouldn't get so far. But you can choose to not buy since you're literally voting with dollars. As long as there's a base of enthusiasts, companies will produce products that they think enthusiasts will want. And what will happen? You betcha those base will be all over it like starving dogs drooling at a piece of steak.

I haven't upgraded a damn thing but a video card just to play Quake 4 decently in my 5 year old Alienware system. I'm just smart with knowing my needs and money. Others just simply have abundant money to waste / spend (depends how you look at it).

-J.
 
CRXican said:
I see what the OP is saying. As he pointed out, the's just saying it to the wrong crowd. I enjoy a game of BF2 but I am the most casual of gamers. I'm on my PC a lot but hardly play any games.

As a result, just this year I bought a Skt 754 3700+ and am using the budget Chaintech VNF-350. Couple that with the 6800GT AGP and the 1GB of Kingston Hyper X I paid $255 for back in Feb 2004 and I'm happy as can be.

I can just sit back and laugh at the people constantly struggling to keep up with all of the new things coming out. The ones asking "Should I spend the extra $xxx for the 4400+ or just get the 4000+ and overclock blah blah blah."

Truth is they wouldn't know the difference nor will anyone else excpet for those people that feel the need to post benchmarks from 10 different programs just to try and be e-cool. It's funny, just sit back and laugh at these people with me.
Click to expand...

This may be true, but its a hobby just like any other, plenty car maniacs m,ake 1000hp machines only to store them in a garage, same with us computer geeks, we speed all this only and time overclockoing getting the best water cooling system with 7800GTX 512MB's dipped in gold and volt modded to go even faster and what do we do with them? 98% of the time we surf the web, do office work on it, maybe a bit of video edditing of photo manupulation, and the game every odd night at full details... like you said your self your talking to the wrong crowd, people like me and all over here overclock their cpu and throw in 4 GB of uber duber 2-2-2-2 Ram at T1 Timings and uber duper dipped in non condoctive gold mixture video cards, overclock them also, all that we can open firefox the 0.3 nano seconds faster, oh and to play 3dmark05 at full aa and af, and the random game of hl2 at full detail and 1000fps

Chilly - Overclocking web surfing freak
 
yeah yeah GeforceX, whatever. Not whining, just commenting. I just believe that the PC hobby is past it's peak, the real fun days were 97 through maybe a year ago, and that anyone can buy new hardware and build a machine with almost no experience, it is that easy now. Not like the old days when you had to load the OS a certain way, and there were entire articles on the newsgroups about it. Pages of articles. Those days are gone.

but I still like computing, ever onward

thanks for the clarification and proper grammer
 
i find myself doing a full upgrade every 2.5-> 3 years, and each times its such a great feeling. letting your system age little by little makes it that much better when you do that new build, and everything is smoothe and silk.

my .02$
 
Survival of the fitest.

I work hard so I can have the toys I want.

If you think computers are an expensive hobby, try roadracing motorcycles, drag racing cars, etc.

A set of tires to ride one of my motorcycles around the track for a day cost about 300 bucks. That doesn't even include track fees (145), gas to get there (100), hotel, etc.

Really, computers are a pretty cheap hobby considering the amount of pleasure you get from them and the amount of time you use them. I wish the rest of my hobbies were near as cheap. :(
 
zoobaby said:
Yeah the performance was about 5% less than what the nForce chipsets were seeing, iirc. As an alternative to the 'Expensive' upgrade path, it is not too bad.
Click to expand...

It was Uli, the company nvidia just bought.

From the reviews I remember, the performance was actually about 5% better than the nvidia chipset with a single PCI-E and the AGP performance was no worse than the PCI-E.

As for computers being all of a sudden non-upgrade friendly, well, that happens. There will come a point where you won't be able to buy another vesa local bus video card too, or a dot matrix printer either. :D
 
BBA said:
It was Uli, the company nvidia just bought.

From the reviews I remember, the performance was actually about 5% better than the nvidia chipset with a single PCI-E and the AGP performance was no worse than the PCI-E.

As for computers being all of a sudden non-upgrade friendly, well, that happens. There will come a point where you won't be able to buy another vesa local bus video card too, or a dot matrix printer either. :D
Click to expand...


I guess my memory is fading...I did get the 5% mark right then. :)

 
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