The cost of XP Pro.

It's so amazing how many of you look at Microsoft as the good guy.

Everything that Microsoft complains about, such as illegal coping of their software, they have done themselves.

I've met people who have worked for them, whose jobs were to copy, and/or reverse engineer other companies products. Case in point, disk compression in the early 90's, which they copied from the product Stacker. It went to court, Stacker won, and Microsoft bought them out.

Microsoft is not an innovating company, they never have been. They simply copy, or buy other companies products and ideas. DOS, they bought, Windows, they copied, and so on. If they get caught copying a product, so what? They have a large overpaid staff of lawyers, or they settle, which ends up being cheaper overall for them vs. developing from scratch the end. Microsoft never really loses in the end. When it comes to laws, they buy Washington. After all, congress is made up of over 85% lawyers, and lawyers love money, easy money. That's why they are lawyers and politicians.

Microsoft's biggest enemies are Linux and open source, as well as their stock holders, who have been spoiled, and demand that the money continue to come in, no matter what, legal or illegal.
 
I've seen a full version retail copy of XP in box for 200.00 at a local retailer, recently.
Still quite expensive. Just grab an OEM, next time you buy some hardware. It's the same thing.
 
Stacker wasn't exactly innocent themselves since they had themselves infringed on Microsoft's trade secrets as well and Microsoft won a judgement against them.

Just as Microsoft absorbs other technologies and ideas, so do other software developers.

People are willing to spend a thousand or more dollars on a computer and complain about a "component" that costs less than some medium to high end video cards or processors.

Microsoft has provided Windows OS at the same price with each release regardless of time.

How many other large commercial software companies have lowered their prices?
How many have raised prices?
 
I agree that no situation is black-and-white, and MS probably gets blamed for things that isn't its fault, and MS is by no means altruistic, just a giant heartless money-making machine out to maximize profit with as little responsibility and quality as possible.

For my point, this post just pissed me off:
Note: I work at Microsoft, This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
Now that the legal is out of the way. People seem to think that spending 50 dollars on a game they use maybe a month or two is worth it. Yet, having an operating system that is maintained, and used all the time isn't worth 3 times that much? XP shipped in august of 2001, which makes it 4 years. We've had numerous updates to XP, 2 service packs, etc... You got all that for your 150 bucks. Amortized, it's almost nothing.
Click to expand...

Notice the mindset is so ingrained that before even posting on a free public forum as an individual, it is necessary to absolve yourself of any responsibility for the words flowing from your own fingers. What, don't you trust what you type/say enough to stand behind it? Was this just a joke? I mean it reminds of Microsoft's Tweak UI stuff for XP that is developed by MS, downloaded from their site, and has a giant claim on the page that they have no guarantee or support for the product. What the hell is that about? The tweaks are for XP, the OS you made, and you can't support them because you are not sure if they'll work right? What the crap kind of quality is that? Maybe spend a little less time with Clippy the deranged Office helper, and work out all the bugs in your UI.

Then there's the statement:

"We've had numerous updates to XP, 2 service packs, etc" and I'm supposed to be happy that it was free? Well no shit it was, the bottom line is there should have never been any need for those service packs, they should have been included in the OS from the get go, and it is the developers fault for not designing it correctly in the first place.

I swear software is one of the only product industries where you can give people absolute shit and not be held accountable in any way. I guess because it is intangible, largely invisible, and the majority of the population is ignorant of the majority of computing.

Enough rant, I'll say at least XP has been a lot better to me than past Windows versions (read garbage).
 
Empyrean said:
For my point, this post just pissed me off:

Notice the mindset is so ingrained that before even posting on a free public forum as an individual, it is necessary to absolve yourself of any responsibility for the words flowing from your own fingers. What, don't you trust what you type/say enough to stand behind it? Was this just a joke?
Click to expand...

Whether you chose to believe it or not, employees of major coporations such as Microsoft can still be held accountable even though they are not "working". It does not even have to be major corporations for that matter. Public employees such ad judges, police officers, EMTs, Firefighters, etc are held accountable for their "actions" and statements even when not "on duty".

Ranma Saos "disclaimer" was to protect his job in case someone ever made a complaint to his employer.

Empyrean said:
"We've had numerous updates to XP, 2 service packs, etc" and I'm supposed to be happy that it was free? Well no shit it was, the bottom line is there should have never been any need for those service packs, they should have been included in the OS from the get go, and it is the developers fault for not designing it correctly in the first place.

I swear software is one of the only product industries where you can give people absolute shit and not be held accountable in any way. I guess because it is intangible, largely invisible, and the majority of the population is ignorant of the majority of computing.

Enough rant, I'll say at least XP has been a lot better to me than past Windows versions (read garbage).
Click to expand...

How many other software products have software updates, service packs and the likes? Microsoft isn't the only one. Even software that was touted as "secure" such as Firefox was discovered to have flaws which by comparison is tiny in comparision to the code contained within an Operating System.

Granted Microsoft has had some very "doh!" moments, but considering the difference and time between Windows 9x and Windows XP, I'd say they have made some serious improvements overall.
 
Empyrean said:
I agree that no situation is black-and-white, and MS probably gets blamed for things that isn't its fault, and MS is by no means altruistic, just a giant heartless money-making machine out to maximize profit with as little responsibility and quality as possible.

For my point, this post just pissed me off:


Notice the mindset is so ingrained that before even posting on a free public forum as an individual, it is necessary to absolve yourself of any responsibility for the words flowing from your own fingers. What, don't you trust what you type/say enough to stand behind it? Was this just a joke? I mean it reminds of Microsoft's Tweak UI stuff for XP that is developed by MS, downloaded from their site, and has a giant claim on the page that they have no guarantee or support for the product. What the hell is that about? The tweaks are for XP, the OS you made, and you can't support them because you are not sure if they'll work right? What the crap kind of quality is that? Maybe spend a little less time with Clippy the deranged Office helper, and work out all the bugs in your UI.

Then there's the statement:

"We've had numerous updates to XP, 2 service packs, etc" and I'm supposed to be happy that it was free? Well no shit it was, the bottom line is there should have never been any need for those service packs, they should have been included in the OS from the get go, and it is the developers fault for not designing it correctly in the first place.

I swear software is one of the only product industries where you can give people absolute shit and not be held accountable in any way. I guess because it is intangible, largely invisible, and the majority of the population is ignorant of the majority of computing.

Enough rant, I'll say at least XP has been a lot better to me than past Windows versions (read garbage).
Click to expand...
SJC is right, I have to post that if responding as a Microsoft employee. (I could have left that out, however it is a bias, and unfair to debate without acknowledging my biases.) My cell phone had bugs, recourse, buy a new phone. My O2 sensor in my car goes bad to a design defect, I get it replaced, and if the car is out of warranty? I have to pay for it. Software defect ships to the end user, it get's fixed free, even years later.

As to developments fault, I would also like to remind you that design philosophies and hardware changes. When XP shipped, the world was not the attack everything mindset it is today. (Note up until 2002-2003 I didn't use a firewall at home, cause I wasn't an attack vector) Now, the world has changed, so XPSP2 was the answer. When XP shipped IDE hard disks weren't over 120GB, so XP didn't support it, now they are and XP supports it. (SP1) Hyperthreading improvements require operating system improvements, those also come "free" with your $150 up front purchase. Hardware and software change rapidly in todays world, and people have to keep up. (Case in point, a lot of bugs I didn't find until years later were timing bugs that were hot fixed post SP1 and are in SP2. Why didn't I find them in 2000-2001? Because I didn't have a quad 3.0 Ghz P4 with hyperthreading to find them on.) (Another note, one of them was a compiler bug, the code was correct. ;) ) So yeah, they shouldn't have been there, but hey everything worked when it went out the door. I take it almost in the gut everytime someone finds a bug that I didn't catch. It is personal, and I would prefer there wouldn't be need of hot fixes and service packs, but that's just not the case.

As to power toys, it's because it's in an untested configuration. Note my view on service changing, it's an untested configuration, and god only knows what will happen. If I turn certain things on or off, something might break. And not in a Microsoft application either. Here's another microsoft employee's post on what happened when he tweaked the default settings:
http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2005/06/09/427240.aspx#427359

I don't usually respond to rants, but this one since it was about me, I figured I'd better respond.
Note: I work at Microsoft, This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
 
Quote:
Note: I work at Microsoft, This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.



or not, employees of major coporations such as Microsoft can still be held accountable even though they are not "working". It does not even have to be major corporations for that matter. Public employees such ad judges, police officers, EMTs, Firefighters, etc are held accountable for their "actions" and statements even when not "on duty".

Ranma Saos "disclaimer" was to protect his job in case someone ever made a complaint to his employer.
Click to expand...

This is total BS. We are not talking about an active trial or anything that is to be held in confidence or privacy. Of course he should be held accountable for his actions "off duty", and his disclaimer is basically saying he shouldn't be. Of course the post is provided "AS IS", how else would it be? Is he saying it won't be editted at some point in the future. "without a warranty". I didn't know a post could have a warranty. What does that even mean? "confers no rights"... again I fail to see how in any way, shape, or form this applies to a post on a public message forum. The only way anything he said could be used against him with the company was if he said or implied something negative, and all he does is laud his employer. So..... the only reason I can see for the disclaimer is that is common MS policy to not take any accountability for anything they do.

How many other software products have software updates, service packs and the likes? Microsoft isn't the only one. Even software that was touted as "secure" such as Firefox was discovered to have flaws which by comparison is tiny in comparision to the code contained within an Operating System.

Granted Microsoft has had some very "doh!" moments, but considering the difference and time between Windows 9x and Windows XP, I'd say they have made some serious improvements overall.
Click to expand...

I agree that XP has serious improvements, and MS has come quite far from their older products. This improvement is a good step forward. It is true that many other software products have updates/fixes. I'm not even considering minor updates as an issue. But the "service packs" are far from minor. I feel MS has set the standard that releasing software with known problems early and patching it later is okay. MS is the poster-child for this way of business.
 
Empyrean, who the fuck cares what it means. If his employer wants it written, and he likes his job... Quit busting his balls. If I was posting in a real estate forum, I wouldn't be surprised if I had to post a similar message (I work at a publicly held real estate company).

The biggest thing you can point at as far as "is the price fair" is MS' bottom line. Given that, I think they could afford to lower their price. What's their impetus though? None. It's a corporation's job to make money in the name of the shareholders.

I'm one to let the market correct itself.
 
Originally posted by Plax
On a tangent here,
Are you saying that communism is unfair?
The actual theory of communism is quite fair...
Click to expand...

Responding to your tangent,
Communism is UNfair because it takes away from those of superior ability and gives to those of inferior ability. There is no personal incentive to work hard under communism because any extra that you produce will be given to those that haven't produced.

If human beings were all identical clones, then communism might work. But we're not so it won't. Power to the rampant bourgeoisie exploitation of the proletariat.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Microsoft bashing thread.
 
Collector said:
Responding to your tangent,
Communism is UNfair because it takes away from those of superior ability and gives to those of inferior ability. There is no personal incentive to work hard under communism because any extra that you produce will be given to those that haven't produced
Click to expand...
Oh, you mean like welfare? Affirmative Action? College scholarships given to students based solely on family income or lack thereof? I digress....
 
Phoenix86
[H]ardness Supreme


Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Cowtown, USA Empyrean, who the fuck cares what it means. If his employer wants it written, and he likes his job... Quit busting his balls. If I was posting in a real estate forum, I wouldn't be surprised if I had to post a similar message (I work at a publicly held real estate company).
Click to expand...

Well, I'll speak my mind as I please. He even responded saying to the effect that is wrote response to precede everything said publicly. That proves my point that both meaningless in this situation and MS policy to avoid responsibility. I'll let it drop, but MS seems to cultivate an environment of ignorance. As shown by this statement:

When XP shipped, the world was not the attack everything mindset it is today.
Click to expand...

Right...... viruses didn't exist before XP, this new-fangled-hacking thing is just in response to it. Anyway, I agreed that MS has made improvements and that is a good thing...
 
Originally posted by djnes

Oh, you mean like welfare? Affirmative Action? College scholarships given to students based solely on family income or lack thereof?
Click to expand...

Yes. You have listed some good examples of Marxist ideology in our society.

But, back to the topic at hand.
 
Empyrean said:
Well, I'll speak my mind as I please. He even responded saying to the effect that is wrote response to precede everything said publicly. That proves my point that both meaningless in this situation and MS policy to avoid responsibility. I'll let it drop, but MS seems to cultivate an environment of ignorance. As shown by this statement:
Right...... viruses didn't exist before XP, this new-fangled-hacking thing is just in response to it. Anyway, I agreed that MS has made improvements and that is a good thing...
Click to expand...
Well you can call me ignorant if you want, but I'm pretty sure most people who know me would disagree with you. ;)

As to your second reply, I'll expand on my point. When XP shipped, the internet wasn't the cess pit that it is now. People weren't trying to hijack your browser to make a penny, people weren't setting up huge bot nets to take down sites for money. The internet now is under constant attack all the time. I wish it wasn't so, but it is. Spyware has only been a big threat for the last 2 or so years. When XP shipped most people were on modems, and hackers didn't give a damn about modems, they wanted fast connections, now hackers just want machines for thier networks. SPAM is now a much bigger problem then it was in 2001, etc... Blaster/Sasser cost companies millions of dollars, and had to be fixed. SP2 is the start of fixing the problem. The research and development that went into SP2 came from the sales of XP gold.

Anyway, I doubt I'll ever change your mind, but believe me I take security very seriously. It's now my job too. ;) I no longer work on Windows Setup, but now in the Security Business Unit.

Note: I work at Microsoft, This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
 
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Ranma Sao, and all of the MS employees, who take the time to stop by, and comment in this forum. I'm pretty sure MS is not paying these people to analyze a dump log, or assist the less competent of us. We all have issues with MS, but it is the most widely used OS on earth. Having the people that write and support this OS, available at all, is a privelege. I lurk in this forum a lot. Links to info in the MS database, that I would never find, have been a great help. People pay me to build, service, and upgrade their systems. I'm here to improve my ability to serve my customers, and make a living. I have no idea why an MS employee would bother. I'm just glad they do.

Of course the price of windows OS's could be lower, but free (though slightly more complicated) alternatives do exist. I don't have MS Office, refuse to pay $600+ plus for it. I use Open Office, and recommend it to folks that believe a pirate copy of MS Office is the answer. I'd like to get Photoshop CS2, but the price is hard to justify. Adobe Premiere is another product that is hard to justify the cost. If you need any of these products bad enough, and they are so much better than free alternatives, you will pay the price........or pirate it. It's a personal decision. I expect to be paid for my work, I guess they do too.

 
Well you can call me ignorant if you want, but I'm pretty sure most people who know me would disagree with you.

As to your second reply, I'll expand on my point. When XP shipped, the internet wasn't the cess pit that it is now. People weren't trying to hijack your browser to make a penny, people weren't setting up huge bot nets to take down sites for money. The internet now is under constant attack all the time. I wish it wasn't so, but it is. Spyware has only been a big threat for the last 2 or so years. When XP shipped most people were on modems, and hackers didn't give a damn about modems, they wanted fast connections, now hackers just want machines for thier networks. SPAM is now a much bigger problem then it was in 2001, etc... Blaster/Sasser cost companies millions of dollars, and had to be fixed. SP2 is the start of fixing the problem. The research and development that went into SP2 came from the sales of XP gold.
Anyway, I doubt I'll ever change your mind, but believe me I take security very seriously. It's now my job too. I no longer work on Windows Setup, but now in the Security Business Unit.
Click to expand...

No personal battle here, I'm sorry if I sounded rash and while rereading what I wrote it does sound as if I was personally calling you ignorant. I didn't intend that. I do believe MS cultivates that environment in the population, allowing people to do as much as possible with as little knowledge as possible. Maybe that's a good thing.... I doubt it ;) . I'll say it again, I think the latest MS OS is worlds better than previous ones, and going in the right direction. Kudos to all the success and hopefully things will continue to get better and better. Maybe I'm also misreading what you wrote.
I agree that a lot of problems have gotten worse in recent years, but that is a byproduct of allowing the uneducated easy access to powerful tools. I disagree that this is in any way a new or unexpected thing. Attacks on computers have been around as long as computers have, and it is silly to assume an easily preyed upon system would be ignored.

Anyway, it sounds like you enjoy your work, and it is a good field to work in, so for the sake of safe computing I wish you success. Again, sorry for being so harsh, but I do feel that MS as a corporation is the King of all Weasels to put it lightly. I'm sure they do have great people working there too, and what applies to the business side of things probably doesn't apply to the engineering side.

Disclaimer: I do not put disclaimers on my posts. ;)
 
Empyrean said:
No personal battle here, I'm sorry if I sounded rash and while rereading what I wrote it does sound as if I was personally calling you ignorant. I didn't intend that. I do believe MS cultivates that environment in the population, allowing people to do as much as possible with as little knowledge as possible. Maybe that's a good thing.... I doubt it ;) . I'll say it again, I think the latest MS OS is worlds better than previous ones, and going in the right direction. Kudos to all the success and hopefully things will continue to get better and better. Maybe I'm also misreading what you wrote.
I agree that a lot of problems have gotten worse in recent years, but that is a byproduct of allowing the uneducated easy access to powerful tools. I disagree that this is in any way a new or unexpected thing. Attacks on computers have been around as long as computers have, and it is silly to assume an easily preyed upon system would be ignored.

Anyway, it sounds like you enjoy your work, and it is a good field to work in, so for the sake of safe computing I wish you success. Again, sorry for being so harsh, but I do feel that MS as a corporation is the King of all Weasels to put it lightly. I'm sure they do have great people working there too, and what applies to the business side of things probably doesn't apply to the engineering side.

Disclaimer: I do not put disclaimers on my posts. ;)
Click to expand...
Beleive me, I didn't take it personally. I agree that it was eventually expected. The techniques for breaking into machines have gotten a lot more complex, and that's what I was trying to say. 5 years ago integer overflows weren't heard of, now they're all the rage. There are teams of people on the internet trying to break software, and they don't even know each other. The kits that people can just download and assemble a virus with clicks of a button, it's mindblowing how easy it is to design a virus with the kits out there. It's a different world. :(
 
Phil_needs_help said:
Point taken, windows does cost money to make. But with all the errors and crashes I've recieved over the past 4 years (and still going - Microsoft not helping me) I feel it isn't worth as much as it costs. u'd think after, wot over 20-ish years in development windows would finally work.

I paid alot for flight sim 2004, and am very pleased with it well done microsoft, just get the OS sorted out....

no doubt i will be recommended to upgrade to longhorn to fix my errors.....lol

4 years stress for $150 not bad....
Click to expand...

If XP is crashing all the time it can only be one of 3 things:

1. Bad hardware or drivers.
2. Spyware and/or viruses.
3. Idiocy.

XP runs great, so saying it crashes all the time isn't an excuse for pirating it.

Also, XP being unsecure is not an excuse. Most of the time MS releases security patches before viruses/worms are able to exploit them. Many people just don't update.

Plus, a lack of basic securty is caused by ignorance, not MS. Blaming MS for your unsafe surfing habbits is like blaming Trojan for your unsafe sex habbits. They both provide the tools to be safe, you just choose not to educate yourself on their use.
 
S1nF1xx said:
If XP is crashing all the time it can only be one of 3 things:

1. Bad hardware or drivers.
2. Spyware and/or viruses.
3. Idiocy.

XP runs great, so saying it crashes all the time isn't an excuse for pirating it.

Also, XP being unsecure is not an excuse. Most of the time MS releases security patches before viruses/worms are able to exploit them. Many people just don't update.

Plus, a lack of basic securty is caused by ignorance, not MS. Blaming MS for your unsafe surfing habbits is like blaming Trojan for your unsafe sex habbits. They both provide the tools to be safe, you just choose not to educate yourself on their use.
Click to expand...

haha ROTFL
perhaps we need to swap computers :p

its funny coz I done millions of tests/scans on a few computers (not one, these problems affect a few) and they seem to pass tests/scans soo why windows crashes i'll never know.

I'd say your just lucky and an error will pop up one day
 
S1nF1xx said:
If XP is crashing all the time it can only be one of 3 things:

1. Bad hardware or drivers.
2. Spyware and/or viruses.
3. Idiocy.

XP runs great, so saying it crashes all the time isn't an excuse for pirating it.

Also, XP being unsecure is not an excuse. Most of the time MS releases security patches before viruses/worms are able to exploit them. Many people just don't update.

Plus, a lack of basic securty is caused by ignorance, not MS. Blaming MS for your unsafe surfing habbits is like blaming Trojan for your unsafe sex habbits. They both provide the tools to be safe, you just choose not to educate yourself on their use.
Click to expand...

btw if u'd care to read my posts "properly" - I never said pirating windows was the answer, i said i think it isn't worth as much as it is..........get the facts right.....
 
I can buy WinXP Pro full or OfficeXP full for $25 through work.

OSX 10.4 "Tiger" is only $130 straight from Apple. You can buy the Family pack which allows you to load it on 5 different Macs for $200.
 
Business ........ I can't begin to describe how hard businesses try to NOT support their products. Sure there are indeed some bad apples among the consumers as well but that's not very common. But heck if I had a corporation I'd probably run it the same way, more money less headaches for me why the hell not? :rolleyes:
 
Maybe by keeping the price for XP up so high, when longhorn rolls around they can sell it at the same or cheaper price to encourage users to upgrade to it.
 
trochili said:
I have a XP Pro for sale, ask for $65 shipped, I got it one month ago from here http://microcity4less.com/item.asp?PID=917

My friend gave me a free XP home so I just opened it to check contents and didn't use it at all.

This is Dell OEM but the on-line store fixed the OEM problem and you may install it in any PC machines
Click to expand...

Microcity is commiting software piracy plain and simple. In fact I wouldn't buy anything from them since they only list an email address as a point of contact.
 
trochili said:
So, I am cheated by this on-line store? How do I get back my money?
Click to expand...
You go through your Credit Card company to see if you can halt or recover the charges. Since it seems like you bought it a while ago, you may not get anything back. You might just be SOL, with a lesson learned to use a little common sense before buying software online. There's so many things wrong or suspicious with the product listing you linked to, it amazes me someone could read that and still actually buy the product.
 
With Apple going Intel, I wonder what Microsoft is going to do, or have done, to quench the sheer thought the Apple OS could be made available to use on PC's? With Linux slowly eating away at their base, Microsoft is not going to allow another threat to exist. Remember BEOS?

Dell has already said that they would sell it, if made available for PC's.

I certainly would buy it if available. I'm sure, many others would, also.

I’m sure someone will make it run on a regular PC, no matter what Apple (Microsoft) does to fix it. People are not as dumb as Microsoft thinks. After all, people keep on cracking their security. :D
 
piracy will never stop, people even pirate programs taht are free, you will find DVD decrypter and DVD Shrink on torrent sites and wares sites even though they are free (i find it hilarious that people would even bother to post the seed to a free <1MB program)
 
So every torrent out there for Linux is piracy? People post software where they know they'll go and see it.
 
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