The Cell + RSX=??

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terminator02

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First this is not meant for a flamebait thread. It is something I have been wondering and I refuse to believe the typical "system wars" answers on other forums. People are more knowledeable here. I am mainly a PC gamer but have a 360 and ps3 as well.

If I remember correctly Sony wasn't even going to use a GPU (RSX) and was going to rely on The Cell for graphics. Now currently games (ports in particular) have looked better on the 360. I know the 360 has 3 general purpose CPU's while PS3 has 1 with a bunch of Spe's. People jump over how the RSX is trampled by the 360 r500 but really the overall performance is about equal with the 360 gpu getting a few more gigaflops. I think its something like 228 vs 214Gflops.

My question is...is there any truth that the cell can do graphics coupled with the RSX chip? Will we see games are are actually more visually stimulating than what can be found on the 360 hardware? Developers and fans seem divided on this. IF the cell really can do graphics calculations like normal CPU's can't then it would appear that the ps3 almost has "SLI" like functioning if the developers take the time to work the system.

The more I have played resistence I have appreciated the physics much more than the visual style of Gears of war. Resistance plays without any slowdown and the way windows break, snow falls, and the way bodies fly it appears that there is a lot of potential not being used in the PS3. What does everyone think?
 
I highly doubt it but anything is possible.

I'm not sure, but one issue with working together (Cell + RSX) is ram. Each unit only has 256mbs of ram. The cell has 256mb of Rambus XDR (3.2ghz?) and the RSX has 256mb of DDR3 at 550mhz. I believe sony said that the RSX can access the systems memory, but can the system access and use the RSX's memory? If not then I really can't see it working. If they do SLI I really think that sharing memory would be ideal over each system having its own ram like SLI/Crossfire is currently done because there just isn't enough ram. You still need the Cell to do the general computing and ram for that.

I also think it would be difficult to do SLI because the differences between the cell and RSX (Nvidia 7800 series) would be huge. How do you make them work together if one is faster then the other? What about quality differences?
 
to me I think the xbox 360 is going to have the better graphics this round. As far as your question on SLI with Cell and RSX? I don't see how that'd be possible.

The PS3 is too hard to program for...the possibility may be there to make a game look better, but it's too complicated. Game developers would rather work on the Xbox 360 hardware and toolset as quoted by nearly ever major developer. Since that's the case, the PS3 is going to get a bunch of lazy ports like it currently is getting.
 
Archaea said:
to me I think the xbox 360 is going to have the better graphics this round. As far as your question on SLI with Cell and RSX? I don't see how that'd be possible.

The PS3 is too hard to program for...the possibility may be there to make a game look better, but it's too complicated. Game developers would rather work on the Xbox 360 hardware and toolset as quoted by nearly ever major developer. Since that's the case, the PS3 is going to get a bunch of lazy ports like it currently is getting.
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Ports usually do not showcase a systems graphics. That being said the best looking games for the PS3 will be first party IP's.

The CPU + GPU inbox design cell can help out on a bunch of different things there are many forums other than [H]ard were developers hang out and can give you much more information. However its best to wait for games to come out as good looking graphics can be suggestive.
 
The Cell processor is one scalar processor (core) coupled with a bunch of specialized vector processors (SPEs). With all the SPEs, it seems IBM developed the Cell with applications heavy in floating-point calculations in mind (the HPC space) -- how well the game developers come to grips with and integrate their code with this new architecture will be important. The impressive floating-point performance of the Cell at least seems to indicate that it can take on the task of some graphics rendering (at least it makes more sense to do so with the Cell than with the Xenon). Perhaps someone who knows more about the Cell architecture or has worked with the processor before can explain if doing some of the graphics rendering on the Cell is practical or not.
 
Archaea said:
to me I think the xbox 360 is going to have the better graphics this round. As far as your question on SLI with Cell and RSX? I don't see how that'd be possible.

The PS3 is too hard to program for...the possibility may be there to make a game look better, but it's too complicated. Game developers would rather work on the Xbox 360 hardware and toolset as quoted by nearly ever major developer. Since that's the case, the PS3 is going to get a bunch of lazy ports like it currently is getting.
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Its been less than a year, and none of the system sellers are out yet. Its far too early to claim it to be "too complicated." That assessment can be made after lair, heavenly sword, ff13, little big planet, mgs4, and gt5 come out. PS2 was exactly the same way for a while, just give it time.

The op suggested "almost sli," not true 50/50 gpu work, which obivously isn't possible because they're just different purpose chips. As was noted, physics and other such operations have tremendous potential on the ps3 and hopefully we will see the cell utilized in this manner. It isn't a second gpu, but it can certainly take use some of its cycles to do things that would be done by the gpu otherwise, freeing it up to concentrate on other things. It also, iirc, assigns individual spes to things like network traffic and i/o, freeing up the rest of the cpu for other tasks.
 
IIRC the team ninja lead said that the PS3 wasn't that bad to develop for. He was saying something like, "If the other developers have enough time to complain about the PS3, then they have enough time to figure out how to develop for it." I think he also said something about developing for the PS3 first then porting it over to the 360 since its a lot easier to do it that way around.
 
All I know is that RSX is based on nvidia 7800 hardware with a 128-bit bus to memory, I'm curious to know why SOny would start out with Cell doing everything and then switch over to discrete nvidia graphics? Anyone know the details? I think the ATI Xenos GPU hardware is a little beefier than RSX too but hope someone can shed light on that. :)
 
R500 is beefier but not an order of magnitude in difference.


I think Cell has a lot of potential. It's hard to predict how much can actually be tapped. There were benchmarks at B3D with the main Cell processor sans SPEs performing equivalent to a 2.4ghz P4 on random code it was not designed to run, with no optimization. We haven't seen anything yet. I'm certain the cell can assist the gpu in various functions like culling.

The skill of the software teams matters more than who's got the best gpu hardware. Sony has awesome 1st party support. The AAA titles coming next year like Gran Turismo 5 should be a revelation.

I believe PS3's game graphics can be every bit as amazing as X360's. Ports really are a bad way of comparing potential. :cool:
 
Just a personal opinion, but I doubt we'll see much difference at all between the graphics of games on the 360 or PS3.
 
The CELL can handle graphics but its not as easy to achieve a high level of quality like it would be on a dedicated GPU. Alot of the early Tech Demos were solely done on the CELL.

Now I do see it doing some graphics in the future but not at the level of the RSX. It's more likely going to be doing alot of small effects and details while the RSX would do the majority of the complex rendering. LAIR is already using the CELL to render LODs and brush so that the draw in isn't that bad. The real part that the CELL will excel in would be particl rendering and possibly grass in many games.

Remeber the CELL rocks when it comes to math calculations, and graphics when broken down are just numbers.

The power of math!
http://www.theprodukkt.com/home
 
The cell has a lot of vector processing power. I imagine that at some point, developers will be able to exploit it to help the RSX pump out better graphics than just the RSX alone could do. Remember that the RSX is really just a beefy Geforce 7800 GTX, but games like Virtua Fighter 5 and Motorstorm are already better than what a 7800 could do on PC. I know it's a different platform, but there's still a lot of untapped potential in this system!
 
Backwash said:
All I know is that RSX is based on nvidia 7800 hardware with a 128-bit bus to memory, I'm curious to know why SOny would start out with Cell doing everything and then switch over to discrete nvidia graphics? Anyone know the details? I think the ATI Xenos GPU hardware is a little beefier than RSX too but hope someone can shed light on that. :)
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Possibly looking back on how they were barely scraping by with the emotion engine on their PS2, they possibly wanted to give their devs more headroom with a discrete GPU solution

also, going with the RSX will save them a bit more money then going with a GPU like the XENOs

the Cell will most likely be used to add certain physics to games as it seems that would be the easiest way to program their SPE's for, wether or not it is difficult to program for is irrevelant unless they can get out some really good dev tools and give their dev's a break.
 
No offence to anyone, but the cell cpu doing graphics is a retarded idea. You would get elite ps1 graphics. That's why the PS3 uses the RSX and not the cell cpu for graphics. The people that think the cell cpu is some kind of super computer chip are just naive. Its good at a few select things. Its not a gpu.
 
the question wasn't if it would be good at it, but if it could aid it, but honestly the aid wouldn't be too outstanding, it could how ever increase the life of the console if it ever came down to it.
 
Apparently it is possible to combine Cell and RSX for rendering. It was claimed at the PS3 launch that the clouds & water in Warhawk are rendered procedurally on Cell.
 
Yes the Cell can help out with Graphics rendering (and already does in some games).
 
ClearM4 said:
No offence to anyone, but the cell cpu doing graphics is a retarded idea. You would get elite ps1 graphics. That's why the PS3 uses the RSX and not the cell cpu for graphics. The people that think the cell cpu is some kind of super computer chip are just naive. Its good at a few select things. Its not a gpu.
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And what "select few" things might that be?

Do you have any idea why Folding@Home is an order of magnitude faster on the PS3 than it is on any PC? Hint: Vector processing. That's what Folding@Home is, vector processing, and the reason the Cell excels at it is because it is an extremely efficient vector processor.

Guess what one of the biggest tasks a GPU faces is? Vector processing. The Cell is more than capable of producing high-quality graphics while still having bandwidth left over for physics and other calculations. Combining that untapped vector-pushing potential with the discrete power of the RSX, and the PS3 has a load of power under its hood. Remember, originally the PS3 was designed to run with only the Cell, then Sony panicked and threw the RSX in at the last minute when they saw MS using ATI graphics.

The cell may be a bitch to develop for now, but if you remember how PS2 titles improved in graphics from the launch of the PS2 to now, expect something similar. (If you don't remember look up screenshots of SSX1 and compare them to God of War 2 or FFXII) Considering the caliber of the launch titles, (specifically Motorstorm and VF5) that means we can expect great things out of this console.

BTW, a lot of software engineers consider the Cell to be a very cheap supercomputer chip, which is why installing Linux on the PS3 is so desirable for developers.
 
Zinn said:
And what "select few" things might that be?

Do you have any idea why Folding@Home is an order of magnitude faster on the PS3 than it is on any PC? Hint: Vector processing. That's what Folding@Home is, vector processing, and the reason the Cell excels at it is because it is an extremely efficient vector processor.

Guess what one of the biggest tasks a GPU faces is? Vector processing. The Cell is more than capable of producing high-quality graphics while still having bandwidth left over for physics and other calculations. Combining that untapped vector-pushing potential with the discrete power of the RSX, and the PS3 has a load of power under its hood. Remember, originally the PS3 was designed to run with only the Cell, then Sony panicked and threw the RSX in at the last minute when they saw MS using ATI graphics.

The cell may be a bitch to develop for now, but if you remember how PS2 titles improved in graphics from the launch of the PS2 to now, expect something similar. (If you don't remember look up screenshots of SSX1 and compare them to God of War 2 or FFXII) Considering the caliber of the launch titles, (specifically Motorstorm and VF5) that means we can expect great things out of this console.

BTW, a lot of software engineers consider the Cell to be a very cheap supercomputer chip, which is why installing Linux on the PS3 is so desirable for developers.
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Sounds like justicfying your 600 purchase?? Ahh well grasping at straws takes time and practice. heheheheh j/k:D
 
Lucien1964 said:
Sounds like justicfying your 600 purchase?? Ahh well grasping at straws takes time and practice. heheheheh j/k:D
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Just to recap:

1. ClearM4 makes inflammatory statement ("no offence...retarded idea") without facts contradicting rest of thread
2. Zinn uses facts and logic to refute
3. Lucien1964 makes inflammatory statement (with awesome spelling mistake!)

Gotta love the internet.
 
Lucien1964 said:
Sounds like justicfying your 600 purchase?? Ahh well grasping at straws takes time and practice. heheheheh j/k:D
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yeah cuz participating in a discussion equates to justifying a purchase

For the record, I am still trying to justify that purchase though. I can't believe I just spent $600 on a box with barely any software. But I'm not doing that in this thread...
 
Spaceman_Spiff said:
Just to recap:

1. ClearM4 makes inflammatory statement ("no offence...retarded idea") without facts contradicting rest of thread
2. Zinn uses facts and logic to refute
3. Lucien1964 makes inflammatory statement (with awesome spelling mistake!)

Gotta love the internet.
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Yes I do love the net. I have no doubt the PS3 will be a great gaming rig as well as the 360. Its to bad the console prices are as high as they are. I just purchased my 360 last week after I sold my media PC. I must say consoles have come a looooong way since the Saturn days. :p
 
Zinn said:
yeah cuz participating in a discussion equates to justifying a purchase

For the record, I am still trying to justify that purchase though. I can't believe I just spent $600 on a box with barely any software. But I'm not doing that in this thread...
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Thanks for your replies Zinn, they do make a lot of sense. I too have struggled a bit with the ps3 as a justified purchase but I am glad I got it. I have enjoyed using it as a blu-ray player. I LOVE VF5 and it has been nice to play that game much sooner than the 360 version. Plus my 360 gamepad is not suited for that game at all. I loved fight night round 3 on the 360 and got the ps3 version because of the first person mode and the improved fighter textures. RFOM is much better than I initially thought when I played it becasue my knee-jerk reaction was to only compare the graphics to gears of war's. Its a great game and does certain things really well. plus..the ps3 is hawt and it has been a very reliable system thus far. great craftsmanship.
 
Why do people feel they have to justify their purchase? If you wanted something and bought it... so be it! It's no-one else's business what you spend your cash on, and you shouldn't worry about it either because the money is already gone. :D
 
Psychotext said:
Why do people feel they have to justify their purchase? If you wanted something and bought it... so be it! It's no-one else's business what you spend your cash on, and you shouldn't worry about it either because the money is already gone. :D
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I have to justify it to myself. Seeing as how's there's 600 dollars + tax on my credit card I have to pay off over the next few weeks. Money isn't "gone" till I pay it back. But unless I do it within 20 days it becomes a drain.

Decent paying job FTW I guess...
 
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