The Begining of Computer Eng, please advise.

N

Nixxon

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 28, 2006
Messages
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Hey all, I've searched through some of the threads and I didn't find quite what I wanted. This also may just be the wrong sub-forum to ask, but I figured I would ask.

I'm currently an electronics technician in the Air Force, my training involved basic electronics (Ohms Law, schematics, soldering, Radio Frequency and Radar theory, antennas etc etc). Nothing insanely in depth. I've always been interested in electronics, and computers more specifically hardware than software.

My question is this. I would like to continue onto higher education in a similar degree to what I'm doing now, but more focused on computers. Where should I start?

I have no programming background (Little CSS and HTML) and the math I've done has only been up to Intermediate Alg.

I'm enrolling in Computer Engineering Technology at Devry and will be doing thier online program but I'm intimidated by the courses. Ultimately I would like to be doing systems design, maybe persue a masters in Network Security and work as a security consultant, but nothing driven mainly by software creation. I like working with my hands and designing/troubleshooting systems and networks.

Is there a place I can start to learn the basics of computer programming/logic before my courses start? I'll be doing Gen Eds for the first year or so but I would like to start to familiarize myself now.

I was thinking that I would but an Arduino kit and try to do projects and tutorials that I find on a website.

Any advice to my scattered thoughts?

Thanks!
 
There's actually a thread around he about starting a computer engineering program. In essence, it will be tough as hell and very mathy, but it'll get you places if you make it.

But if you'd like a start in computer programming before the classes you pay for, I think most major computer-related programs start with the C programming language.
 
Based on the Computer Engineering Technology pages they have on their website, the program looks like it's focused on the practical side of computer engineering, which would include networking, computer architecture, databases and the like. I wouldn't worry too much about your math background but I'd suggest finding some books on probability, discrete math, and maybe basic calculus as well. The Shaum's Outlines are a good place to start and they're cheap.

If you get into the microprocessor/digital design stuff you'll need to be comfortable working in base 2, (converting numbers from base 10 to binary, stuff like that), boolean logic, AND/OR gates, how to minimize logic, etc. We used an earlier edition of this book for intro to digital design and it's a solid introduction to the field.

Regarding programming, once you learn your first language you've pretty much learned how to program in any other, the rest is just syntax. An introductory programming course should be easy enough to teach you the ropes in your first language without being too stressful. Once you have some background in digital logic and how microprocessors work then it's a natural progression from programming in a higher-level language like C++ or Java to programming in something like assembly.
 
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-=Antimatter=- said:
Based on the Computer Engineering Technology pages they have on their website, the program looks like it's focused on the practical side of computer engineering, which would include networking, computer architecture, databases and the like. I wouldn't worry too much about your math background but I'd suggest finding some books on probability, discrete math, and maybe basic calculus as well. The Shaum's Outlines are a good place to start and they're cheap.

If you get into the microprocessor/digital design stuff you'll need to be comfortable working in base 2, (converting numbers from base 10 to binary, stuff like that), boolean logic, AND/OR gates, how to minimize logic, etc. We used an earlier edition of this book for intro to digital design and it's a solid introduction to the field.

Regarding programming, once you learn your first language you've pretty much learned how to program in any other, the rest is just syntax. An introductory programming course should be easy enough to teach you the ropes in your first language without being too stressful. Once you have some background in digital logic and how microprocessors work then it's a natural progression from programming in a higher-level language like C++ or Java to programming in something like assembly.
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Right, thats why they added the Technology to the degree title I think, because its more focused on application rather than theoretical design?

The highest math this program goes into is Calc 2 which shouldn't be anything too insane right? Like I said I've only gone to Intermediate College Algebra (Basically Algebra 2) and that was a few years ago so I'll need to do some pre-calc etc.

As far as the program stuff goes is there a lot of math type stuff involved with programming?

And again as far as a starting point I think I've decided to start with C and then move into C++. I understand there are tons of languages and I've decided to go with this because A) Its a very commonly used well documented language and B) I want to try to get a jumpstart on the engineering/software design portions using Ardunio and the Ardunio language is based off of C.
 
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When you say "I would like to continue onto higher education in a similar degree to what I'm doing now, but more focused on computers," I take that to mean "I want to build and design the things I'm currently fixing, troubleshooting, and installing."

You'll get a lot of advice, and I'm not a Computer Anything, so take this for what it's worth.

First, don't stress about just having taken Algebra. I'm going to give you a big secret most folks don't learn until AFTER they do all the hard math. Are you ready.... here it is. None of it matters without Algebra! That's right, you can't do Calculus, Tensors, Diff-EQs or any of that unless you can do Algebra. I'd highly, strongly, and sincerely recommend you take college Algebra even if you already had it way back when.

As far as programming goes, your best bet for books would be to just call the department and ask what they use. I'd bet the professor will even provide you with old assignments to work through on your own. Plus, it may put a face to the number, which helps in big engineering departments.

Once you learn the basic concepts of organizing your thoughts into code, that's all you need. The actually choice of a language is a means to an end. The Engineering is really about getting some chunk of hardware to do something other than act as a big paper-weight, whether that be a factory machine that precisely stamps out parts, a fancy scientific instrument that captures data for an important experiment, new printer drivers for the latest and greatest ink-jet, or a radar to guide laser bombs... That's what you could be doing after a course of study like the one you are looking at.

EDIT:
Sorry, I missed your last post while writing this. I'd personally recommend going straight into C++ as that will teach you the important concepts of objects and encapsulation that a lot of people have problems with. The low level stuff like Assembly, and to a certain extent basic C, is not to hard. And anymore C is nothing more than a subset ( or is it superset) of C++. You can do in C++ anything you can do in C
 
CraftyChicken said:
First, don't stress about just having taken Algebra. I'm going to give you a big secret most folks don't learn until AFTER they do all the hard math. Are you ready.... here it is. None of it matters without Algebra! That's right, you can't do Calculus, Tensors, Diff-EQs or any of that unless you can do Algebra. I'd highly, strongly, and sincerely recommend you take college Algebra even if you already had it way back when.
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Pretty much. You need to have mastery of algebra. Calculus is simply a conceptual abstraction that allows us to take things that aren't constant and calculate them as if they were (algebra).

As general advice: learn as much math as you can and be good at it.
 
CraftyChicken said:
When you say "I would like to continue onto higher education in a similar degree to what I'm doing now, but more focused on computers," I take that to mean "I want to build and design the things I'm currently fixing, troubleshooting, and installing."
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For the most part you're correct. I currently don't work on much computer related. I work on mostly radio equipment, Air Traffic Control interface type stuff and ground Navigation systems. Small electronics, printed circuit boards and the like. I enjoy the hands on portion of it and the logic of circuits.

Anyways the advice given is great. I'll find a good C++ Beginner book and work through code as well as tinker with the Ardunio. I'm taking the course through Devry's online program. Active duty military stationed overseas is a little difficult to take day classes.



P.S.- This forum should have a formal education section. This forum is hardly the place for this but it seems where a lot of people ask about education.
 
This is a shot in the dark, but, if you have a Zune, check out a podcast called "Programming Methodology". It is an entire programming class taught at Stanford University that is free. It could be on itunes, not sure, but if you get access to it I think it would definitely help. It is taught by a really smart guy named Mehran Sahami who works for Google as well. He teaches Java.

Here is the link to the class, lectures, software, etc if you are interested.
http://www.stanford.edu/class/cs106a/
 
riot8ap just triggered a thought... MIT has been trying to put all their course material online and free to the public, the program being called OpenCourseWare. It's essentially like being able to take the class for free, except you'd have to pay to get grades and credit.

They probably have some programming notes and assignments you can look at.

EDIT:
http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/index.htm
 
Have you done much with microcontrollers? I started with an interested in electronics but had a history of programming and someone at my work mentioned microcontrollers and I have been hooked since. You can write code, compile it and flash it to a microcontroller which can be connected to a PC via USB, serial/parallel ports, bluetooth, ect...

At the moment I am registered to take computer science classes with emphasis in engineering which focuses on the hardware side of PC's including driver development.
 
The MIT math classes online are great. I'm currently working through their linear algebra as a refresher. Unfortunately, I don't think they have the Algebra I and II courses online. Maybe they have programming there. Keep in mind it's a no credit no cost thing.

Since you are Active Duty and time constrained, if you have to choose between Math and Programming, focus on mastering Algebra. Work through every problem in the book. A lot of times you'll be assigned only a portion of the problems for homework. Do every single one anyway, even the so called 'practical examples,' which are usually a PITA and take a whole page in the book to word the danged question. Many times your math tests will have 1 or 2 of the non-homework assigned text-book problems there, as a bonus for anyone smart enough to look at them in advance.

My old man, who was also an ET, took his college algebra through the Navy correspondence courses back in the 60s. It was great because you could work at your own pace. (I think he also took biology, which puts a whole new meaning on the term 'squid' ) I'm curious if such a thing like that still exists, because as he once told me, the war didn't go on pause every time you have to take a test. If they don't, find out if the DeVry instructor will accommodate you, if not find a different class ASAP.

Finally, there is there is no such thing as 'traditional' when it comes to your education.
 
jdraughn said:
Have you done much with microcontrollers? I started with an interested in electronics but had a history of programming and someone at my work mentioned microcontrollers and I have been hooked since. You can write code, compile it and flash it to a microcontroller which can be connected to a PC via USB, serial/parallel ports, bluetooth, ect...

At the moment I am registered to take computer science classes with emphasis in engineering which focuses on the hardware side of PC's including driver development.
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I haven't done anything with mirocontrollers, however Arduinos are what I think you're talking about.

CraftyChicken said:
The MIT math classes online are great. I'm currently working through their linear algebra as a refresher. Unfortunately, I don't think they have the Algebra I and II courses online. Maybe they have programming there. Keep in mind it's a no credit no cost thing.

Since you are Active Duty and time constrained, if you have to choose between Math and Programming, focus on mastering Algebra. Work through every problem in the book. A lot of times you'll be assigned only a portion of the problems for homework. Do every single one anyway, even the so called 'practical examples,' which are usually a PITA and take a whole page in the book to word the danged question. Many times your math tests will have 1 or 2 of the non-homework assigned text-book problems there, as a bonus for anyone smart enough to look at them in advance.

My old man, who was also an ET, took his college algebra through the Navy correspondence courses back in the 60s. It was great because you could work at your own pace. (I think he also took biology, which puts a whole new meaning on the term 'squid' ) I'm curious if such a thing like that still exists, because as he once told me, the war didn't go on pause every time you have to take a test. If they don't, find out if the DeVry instructor will accommodate you, if not find a different class ASAP.

Finally, there is there is no such thing as 'traditional' when it comes to your education.
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I'm not nessecarily time constrained. I'm just worried about my level of math comprehension and being able to actually complete the course. If I'm jumping into a program that is EXTREMELY math heavy and I need to solve math equations with programming then I may be in over my head but I won't know till I get there. Proofs in geometry gave me some trouble back in high school.

Schools are pretty accomodating for military. Devry has 8 week courses and the whole program is online. They said that when I begin classes if I need a break or anything to speak with my professor and they shouldn't have problems pausing etc.

Devry is only charging me about $250 per credit our (plus a few more fees) and thats about a 60% discount. The military covers that. All In all my degree will cost me about $4000 out of pocket roughly. I could use my GI Bill to cover it, but I want to be able to transfer the whole thing to pay for my kids degree or my wifes Masters which just became a possibility.

No excuse to not get a degree while in, it just takes work and dedication.
 
Jerec said:
riot8ap just triggered a thought... MIT has been trying to put all their course material online and free to the public, the program being called OpenCourseWare. It's essentially like being able to take the class for free, except you'd have to pay to get grades and credit.

They probably have some programming notes and assignments you can look at.

EDIT:
http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/index.htm
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Thank you! This is really good to look through. A lot of it looks to be way over my head though but I'll try to familiarize myself with it.
 
Well, it sure sounds like you've got a solid plan. If I were you, I'd enroll in Comp. Engineering Department ASAP and take Algebra II this January.

Here's my logic:
A) You know I think that dawg gone Algebra is so very important, you might as well take the class, and your time, and get full credit/support, rather then do it on your own.
B) Since you do have an English, Humanities and Social sciences requirement for that degree, you could take 1 or 2 of those classes alongside that Algebra Class without over burdening yourself.

-That would be your basic 6-9 credits for part time study, it would be a lot of work but, hardly Herculean.

After that you can take some more of the humanities alongside the Pre-Calc this summer, if it's offered, and starting in September your programming 101, which by that time you'll be 100% ready for, especially so if you do indeed plan to tinker with C/C++ over the next year or so independently.

Hopefully, they will knock of some of those humanities and personal development classes. I don't think anyone whose has spent time getting chewed out in the military needs to learn about 'goal-setting' and 'personal evaluation.' You may even get credit for the basic circuits classes too, but i just don't know.

EDIT:
If you want, take a loot at that this MIT class, as it's the basic programming 101 we all had to take, and trust me, none of us knew squat about programming before we took it.
 
There are a few different kinds of microcontrollers, each with different pro's and con's, but generally they can all do what you need. I use PIC microcontrollers, they vary in price and features from less then 1.00 each on up.

A few ideas I have had to use microcontrollers for.
1. A guitar hero type game that allows you to use a real guitar. Possibly measures the resistance of the strings to figure out which one is currently pressed, or even better the resistance of each fret.
2. Same thing but with a keyboard/piano.
3. Some kind of new controller for video games.
4. Custom fuel injection for my Corvette.
5. Fuel injection for my lawn mower :) Also make it a smart robot so it could mow the lawn on it's own.
6. Some kind of portable multimedia/pc device. I would implement an atom platform and use the pic to control the input/output.
7. Robots, Robots Robots...
8. Home automation.
9. I know I have many more ideas but have been so busy lately I haven't had a chance to do much with my electronics lately. I probably have 2k resistors of varying values, capacitors, ect.. and have designed and etched my own circuit boards for power supplies and a differential controller for a solar hot water heater I designed and built (to later be integrated into a home automation project).

A quick google came up with this site that looks to have some good info: http://baec.tripod.com/piczone.htm
 
Chicken,

I actually already have my AA in Electronics Systems Technology through the Air Force and Devry is going to accept a decent amount of credits. So my humanities etc are all taken care of. The Air Force will only cover about 6 classes per year and I think I may take the math courses all in person. Any other gen eds that I need will be taken with math courses like you said. English, technical writing, blah blah blah.

I looked at that course you linked and it starts with Python and has video lectures which I can't see at work, but I'll be sure to download them and get a Python compiler when I get home to test it out. Thanks for all of your input!
 
jdraughn said:
There are a few different kinds of microcontrollers, each with different pro's and con's, but generally they can all do what you need. I use PIC microcontrollers, they vary in price and features from less then 1.00 each on up.

A few ideas I have had to use microcontrollers for.
1. A guitar hero type game that allows you to use a real guitar. Possibly measures the resistance of the strings to figure out which one is currently pressed, or even better the resistance of each fret.
2. Same thing but with a keyboard/piano.
3. Some kind of new controller for video games.
4. Custom fuel injection for my Corvette.
5. Fuel injection for my lawn mower :) Also make it a smart robot so it could mow the lawn on it's own.
6. Some kind of portable multimedia/pc device. I would implement an atom platform and use the pic to control the input/output.
7. Robots, Robots Robots...
8. Home automation.
9. I know I have many more ideas but have been so busy lately I haven't had a chance to do much with my electronics lately. I probably have 2k resistors of varying values, capacitors, ect.. and have designed and etched my own circuit boards for power supplies and a differential controller for a solar hot water heater I designed and built (to later be integrated into a home automation project).

A quick google came up with this site that looks to have some good info: http://baec.tripod.com/piczone.htm
Click to expand...

I'll look into that, I'm really unimaginative on what I can do because I'm such a noob right now and I don't know what microcontrollers + programming is capable of so I'm pretty much going to work through tutorials and lessons to get the groundwork layed out. If you have any resources that you used to teach yourself please share them with me!
 
Since you've got the AA, yea man, you are good to go. Seriously, the best students I see, 9/10 went to community school or have a their associates. I love guys like that, because I know they are here to work and learn. (Not that having fun should be avoided)

As far as what you can do with programming, well, that's the beauty of becoming an Engineer. You'll be given the tools and knowledge you need so when someone say "Hey, I want to have a plastic toy guitar that can be used as a video game controller," you'll say "Hmm... I wonder if we do it like this, how would that work?"

It also makes you a cool Dad, because you can be a real Guitar Hero when you fix the crappy Chinese manufactured junk that broke and made your kids cry...:p (In my case it was the Rock Band Guitar, to be fair)
 
eon said:
http://www.ripoffreport.com/College...sity/devry-university-ripoff-sucker-x3459.htm
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That is exactly what I was wondering myself.

Unfortunetly the only thing I can do is persue a degree like this. Being in the military there is no such thing as a Computer Engineering program that I could persue while being active duty.

The best thing I could do would be to persue the program at Devry and then transfer my credits into a regular Engineer program and hope most of my work hasn't gone for nothing.

Although I feel that 20 years experiance in the field while being in the military + a degree in a related field especially one with Engineering in the title would place me in a very high paying job.
 
I think a local community college is better than DeVry. I am in a program right now at the local college that will transfer my credits to a state university to finish out my Bachelors. You may want to investigate your local community college, most if not all have computer programs that transfer credit to higher learning institutions. With DeVry, it's more expensive and a gamble - just my 2 cents.
 
riot8ap said:
I think a local community college is better than DeVry. I am in a program right now at the local college that will transfer my credits to a state university to finish out my Bachelors. You may want to investigate your local community college, most if not all have computer programs that transfer credit to higher learning institutions. With DeVry, it's more expensive and a gamble - just my 2 cents.
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The only problem with that is I will be stationed in England for the next four years. So I need to go to distance learning colleges that are supported by the military base I'll be living near.
 
If you want to be building electric circuits or do any sort of design, you will need to master your fear of math, or you will never be good. Using math will need to be just like using English. And the only to do that is practice, practice, practice.
 
Whatsisname said:
If you want to be building electric circuits or do any sort of design, you will need to master your fear of math, or you will never be good. Using math will need to be just like using English. And the only to do that is practice, practice, practice.
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More scared my degree will mean jack shit coming from Devry as Computer Engineering Technology than Math or Programming at this point.
 
It definitely is important to get your degree, but in the end, the degree is only a piece of paper that tells employers what you've probably learned, but during the interview, assuming you've learned a lot, you can wow them, and the degree name won't matter too much.

So instead of worrying about what degree to get, you should just focus on the degree that has course requirements about stuff you want to learn and want to get good at.

Just a quick note about MIT's OCW - it's a great site for information, but a lot of the classes on there have readings from textbooks which aren't on the website. Sometimes there are lecture notes, but often they are either Powerpoint slides, crappy handwriting, or just need more elaboration. So definitely take a look at OCW, but in reality, it's just as good to go to OCW, look up the readings, and then go to your nearest library and see if you can find the readings to read.
 
The consensus I received from talking to people during informational interviews and while job hunting.... people don't think to highly of online schools such as University of Phoenix and DeVry University. They preferred candidates from ex: University of Kansas, Washington, California or San Francisco State, Penn State, Michigan State.

During my last internship, I was speaking with the head of operations and we talked about my educational background. She mentioned how it was from a reputable ranked school and she made some comments about some of the resume she receives and if she couldn't tell if it's a "reputable" school she won't consider the candidate.

Her view maybe wrong and unjust, but you can't really do anything about that.
 
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I'll be honest, you may have problems from an online degree... BUTTTTTTT

Should you so choose, remember this adage, "College credit is good the World around." Ok, so I made that up. But my point is, you can easily take many of your classes at Devry, and decide to finish up at some other school anywhere else.

And, ss Bob Dylan once said, "the times they are a' changing." Who knows what things will be like in the very near future. When I went to school, community college graduates were the second class individuals, now I often consul my friends and family to consider community college for at least the first 1/2 of their 4-year degree.

There is no way you can stop anyone who busts their ass, from doing anything. Your first job from Devry may not be your dream position, but once you have demonstrated your a career guy, that college degree doesn't mean squat.

P.S
The typical issues with online degrees for hard stuff (engineering, sciences) are the lack of labs and 'hands-on' time. You'll have already overcome some of those issues with your 4+ years as an ET.

P.P.S
The person who will not look at your resume would be your typical Human Resources weenie. But, consider that in your current occupation you may have opportunities to directly or indirectly work with contractors who make the equipment you use. Keep in contact with them, and you may find yourself with a job when you get out.
 
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I think that yes most people would shun away from an online degree. However I think that an impression will be said when my resume says 20 Years as an electronics technician as well as management of ET workcenters. While being active duty military for 20 years I managed to procure an Engineering degree (Regardless if it says technology or not, I think its still an eng degree).

To be honest I have no way of going to a traditional school. Not only will I be living/stationed in England for the next four years, but traditional universities offer little in the way of night courses etc.

And yes, Chicken is right, if push comes to shove I'll transfer my credits yet again to another school.

I think people who post things saying that they can't get a job out of the gate with an online degree lack experiance in the field and expect a job out of the gate for $50k/year. This ideal also seems to be a trend with traditional degrees as well.

Experiance is the key to my situation I think. The degree itself is just a checkbox on an application that I need to fill.
 
electric/computer engineer is a totally different beast from being an electric/computer technician
can clarify the types of jobs you are aiming for?
 
if you transfer your credits, make sure you look up the residency requirements to graduate for xyz school.

For example, there was a requirement I take at least 30 credits from my school to graduate from it.


P.S. Don't shoot the messenger.
 
Nixxon said:
While being active duty military for 20 years I managed to procure an Engineering degree (Regardless if it says technology or not, I think its still an eng degree).
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Now I'm getting a better picture. Either you're a lifer, or plan on being one. It is entirely all to common for people just like you have earned their education piecemeal over time.

One thing you'll have to consider though, is that most places will be looking to hire young guys for their entry level positions. HOWEVER, in the realm of contractors (government or private-sector), it's definitely common to hire guys in the 40s and up who've left the military to act as technical support for various projects and what not.

Other than that, all I can really say is this. Education is more than just a job and a career. If you get that, everything else will sort itself out.

P.S Engineering is a weird term that can mean so many things. Your traditional 'Engineer' usually will have taken more advanced math and physics to be sure. But, the word Engineer really means, to me at least, 'someone who makes things and solves problems using science.' Basically, you want your Engineers to build things based on reason and thought, not wild guesses or hunches... those things are for scientists (that's me) So, you need not necessarily have the same background as someone to be considered an Engineer.

P.P.S Don't forget about graduate school, that changes everything. Nobody gives a *poop* about your background, all that matters is if you can do the work. I've met guys with PhDs in Physics who studied Political Science for peets sake. Depending on your plans, it may be worth considering.
 
eon said:
electric/computer engineer is a totally different beast from being an electric/computer technician
can clarify the types of jobs you are aiming for?
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Mmm... I would say that I'm probably not suited to a design or research type job because I'm not very creative.

I think ultimately I would like to get a masters degree in network security or some kind of security consultant. But I persue eng because I really like to understand the deep complexities of how things work. I think that I would also really enjoy being given a project, and working as a team to build solutions to problems. Problemsolving is something I really enjoy.
 
You basically just gave the magic words for all Engineers and Scientists... "I want to understand."

That's all there is, IMHO.
 
I think the network security field is the way to go if you currently have a secret or top secret clearance. MANY MANY consulting positions open for that.
 
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