TFT nonitor for graphic design

killthecat

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Feb 8, 2005
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Hello evrerybody! (I'm new)
I want to ask about TFT monitors.
I am graphic designer and I would like to know which could be an option for me according my profession.
Thanks a lot for your comments!
Killthecat
PS Excuse me my english ;)
 
So far, every designer that I spoke to that uses a flat panel (at least in Canada, I never spoke to ones here in the US) uses the Apple Cinema Display...and for good reason too.
 
i believe the dell 2005fpw uses the same screen as the Apple 20"

i plan on getting one and i'm a graphic artist
 
shocksyde said:
i believe the dell 2005fpw uses the same screen as the Apple 20"

i plan on getting one and i'm a graphic artist

Is that Dell monitor PVA pannel?
Which is the time response?
Which is its dot pitch?

See you soon!
Killthecat
 
killthecat said:
Is that Dell monitor PVA pannel?
Which is the time response?
Which is its dot pitch?

See you soon!
Killthecat

No it's S-IPS
12ms grey-to-grey, 16ms
don't know the exact dot pitch, but it's nice (no apparent screendoor effect if that's what you're worried about)

I really like my 2005FPW, and it does indeed use the same panel as the ACD, but if you want to do very precise graphic work that relys on exact color reproduction. The apple displays may give you some better color consistency over the whole screen than the Dells do. I base this on comment I've read from graphic artists looking for the best displays possible. The 2005FPW has some variation in gamma from the edge of the screen to the center (this isn't apparent in everyday use, but could be an issue if you want to calibrate the screen using a sensor). I've noticed this in 3 different 2005FPWs so it isn't a fluke with just one screen. I've never had an occasion to run the same test on the 20" ACD so I don't know if the same phenomenon exists there, I have seen it on a 23" ACD though (but those have a lot of other issues too). People also refer to this as desaturation near the edges of the screen, etc. on messageboards.

It's a very subtle effect and not something anyone would ever need to worry about if they were to use it for normal use/gaming/movies. It's only an issue if exact color reproduction is necessary.
 
With the 2005Fp ongoing problems I wouldent use it. Having a backlight problem could couse areas to look grey to you but black to others or Pink to you and red to others. This is why we have professional grade equipment. We need accuracy or standard.

Eizo is a company made just for this
 
killthecat said:
So the 2005FPW is not the best choice for a graphic design.

Well, it's a great monitor.. for example if you're just using a typical 17" crt it will be a huge step up. If you're just doing graphic design as a hobby or casually it will probably be as much as you need, but if you're a professional who's used to having his monitors perfectly calibrated and/or you do a lot of published work.. then you may find it somewhat lacking.

For the cream of the crop go for the Apple Cinema Display... for casual use/presentation purposes the 2005FPW is fine. I own a 2005FPW and I'm pretty picky/anal about my computer stuff... i'm really happy with it, so don't think that I'm bashing it. However, if I were doing something where I'd need to do precision calibration for my work then I'd probably go with the Apple Cinema Display for the best results.
 
killthecat said:
At this moment, my preference are:

Samsung 193P
Samsung 213T

What do you think?

Those two are great choises. After some color calibration they will suit you perfectly. Both of them has a little too much blue at their default color setting.

Have you looked at Lacie LCD's, they are made for graphic designer, but perhaps they are too expensive.
 
Yes I ve been watching the Lecie monitor.
But In 19" I prefer Samsung.
In 20" I prefer Lacie, but as you said, They are too expensive...
 
killthecat said:
Yes I ve been watching the Lecie monitor.
But In 19" I prefer Samsung.
In 20" I prefer Lacie, but as you said, They are too expensive...

The new Hyundai L90D+ uses the Samsung 8ms panel and its actually a better LCD then the Samsung counterpart that also uses it. Its also quite a bit cheaper. CompUSA just had the L90D+ for $339 and TigerDirect has it in stock for $369.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1218288&Tab=7&NoMapp=0

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=364128

Its the best 19" LCD i've seen and its the best gaming LCD hands down.

They have been selling out about as fast as they the vendors get them so you might want to grab one as soon as you find a price you like.
 
burningrave101 said:
The new Hyundai L90D+ uses the Samsung 8ms panel and its actually a better LCD then the Samsung counterpart that also uses it. Its also quite a bit cheaper. CompUSA just had the L90D+ for $339 and TigerDirect has it in stock for $369.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1218288&Tab=7&NoMapp=0

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=364128

Its the best 19" LCD i've seen and its the best gaming LCD hands down.

They have been selling out about as fast as they the vendors get them so you might want to grab one as soon as you find a price you like.
He needs a monitor for graphic design so a TN panel is out of question. Narrow viewing angles, low contrast ratio and 6-bit color is not something a graphic designer would be happy about ;)
 
NEC 1980sx (i) - i believe it's the same panel as 193P, but comes in black and looks hell of a lot better. it's also a bit cheaper and has some nice features
 
_jd_ said:
NEC 1980sx (i) - i believe it's the same panel as 193P, but comes in black and looks hell of a lot better. it's also a bit cheaper and has some nice features
I thought the 1980sxi used a 25ms S-IPS panel? And I know it's just a matter of taste but damn, it really looks better than the 193P to you? I've seen one and I hated its looks. Mainly because it's so bulky and ugly at the back:

side.jpg
 
Roger said:
He needs a monitor for graphic design so a TN panel is out of question. Narrow viewing angles, low contrast ratio and 6-bit color is not something a graphic designer would be happy about ;)

The Samsung 213T he's looking at has a contrast ratio of 500:1 while the L90D+ has a contrast ratio of 700:1, the L90D+'s viewing angles are more then acceptable, and what are you talking about 6-bit color? Its 24-bit true color 16.7 million or possibly 18-bit 16.2 million, i'm not for sure which.

Like many other screen the L90D+ color spectrum has nothing to be ashamed of compared to the CRT Mitsubishi. TN LCD screens can’t be considered as the worse panels for color display. The result is perfect here!

http://www.behardware.com/articles/534/page4.html

Take a look at the color reproduction graph that compares it to the Mitsubishi DP930SB which is about the best 19" CRT you can find.

A little more info about the monitor. The viewing angle is WONDERFUL. There is a noticeable color temperature change once you view the LCD from either left or right. It looks warmer (as in tan/beige-ish) whereas when you sit in front of the monitor, it looks perfect. When you stand right above it and look down at an extreme angle, it looks lighter, but everything is easily still visible, as it is from the sides as well. It's barely noticeable and not a problem at all (for me at least).

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=364128

If he's sitting in front of the LCD then the viewing angle isn't really an issue at all.

There are better options for graphics design LCD's but the price of the L90D+ and its 8ms response time is hard to beat although i guess response time doesn't matter as much with graphics design :).

http://www.hyundaiq.com/pro_spec_l90d+.asp
 
burningrave101 said:
The Samsung 213T he's looking at has a contrast ratio of 500:1 while the L90D+ has a contrast ratio of 700:1, the L90D+'s viewing angles are more then acceptable, and what are you talking about 6-bit color? Its 24-bit true color or whatever 16.7 million translates to.



http://www.behardware.com/articles/534/page4.html

Take a look at the color reproduction graph that compares it to the Mitsubishi DP930SB which is about the best 19" CRT you can find.



http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=364128

If he's sitting in front of the LCD then the viewing angle isn't really an issue at all.

There are better options for graphics design LCD's but the price of the L90D+ and its 8ms response time is hard to beat although i guess response time doesn't matter as much with graphics design :).

http://www.hyundaiq.com/pro_spec_l90d+.asp
Specified contrast ratios don't mean much at all. I'm sure if you were to actually measure the contrast ratio of both monitors you'd see the 213T is still better although it's specs are not.

Hyundai's viewing angles plain and simple suck. Well, they are not worse than on any other TN + Film matrix but doesn't say much really. Even if you sit directly in front of the monitor it's poor vertical viewing angles are an issue. Anyone who thinks they are "wonderful" has never seen an IPS or PVA monitor.

Regarding the colors. It's a 18-bit color. 6 bits per channel. What this means that the monitor can actually only display 262k colors and uses dithering to "emulate" 16.2m colors. Monitors built around IPS and PVA panels can display true 24-bit color (8 bits per channel, 16.7m colors).

In conclusion, if you are buying a monitor for graphic design, LCDs with TN panels are the worst possible choice.
 
"and what are you talking about 6-bit color? Its 24-bit true color 16.7 million or possibly 18-bit 16.2 million"

6 bit x3 (RGB) = 18 bit -> 16.2 mil colour
8 bit x3 = 24 bit -> 16.7 mil

anyone who says 18 bit display is good enough for graphic design has never seen (and compared) a gradient fill on 18 vs 24 bit LCDs (as a start)
 
Roger said:
Hyundai's viewing angles plain and simple suck. Well, they are not worse than on any other TN + Film matrix but doesn't say much really. Even if you sit directly in front of the monitor it's poor vertical viewing angles are an issue. Anyone who thinks they are "wonderful" has never seen an IPS or PVA monitor.

Unless you place the LCD on a desk up above eye level or something your not going to have a problem with viewing angles. People dont usually stand up when their doing things on the PC or sit so to the left or right side of the LCD. They sit directly in front of it. And all the people that have this LCD say the viewing angles are good even though they aren't perfect.

The L90D+ is spec'd for viewing angles of 150/135 while the Samsung 913N is 160/160. Considering the fact the the L90D+ uses the same panel wouldn't it have the same viewing angles and same contrast level? Maybe Hyundai just rated it a little more conservatively then Samsung does.

Roger said:
Regarding the colors. It's a 18-bit color. 6 bits per channel. What this means that the monitor can actually only display 262k colors and uses dithering to "emulate" 16.2m colors. Monitors built around IPS and PVA panels can display true 24-bit color (8 bits per channel, 16.7m colors).

If thats true then why is the color reproduction of this LCD so good compaired to the CRT's its been put against?

http://www.behardware.com/articles/534/page4.html

The Hyundai L90D+ uses a new custom 8ms panel made by Samsung. Isn't it possible that maybe the color reproduction is a little better then what you've seen on other TN panels? Is there some law that states its impossible for any TN panel to display 16.7M colors or is it just common practice that current ones havn't?

The L90D+ says 16.7M in its specs but i guess its only 16.2M like you say?

Compare the color reproduction of the Samsung 910N (PVA panel) to that of the L90D+.

http://www.behardware.com/articles/534/page7.html

I exited out of HL2 and loaded up Photoshop (I do a lot of photo restoration and editing) and tested out the colors. NO TWINKLING. In fact it looked just as good as the Sony buzzin' along right beside it (by buzzing I mean both of my Sony CRTs make a low buzzing sound, whereas this monitor makes no sound and turns on instantly).

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=364128
 
burningrave101 said:
Unless you place the LCD on a desk up above eye level or something your not going to have a problem with viewing angles. People dont usually stand up when their doing things on the PC or sit so to the left or right side of the LCD. They sit directly in front of it. And all the people that have this LCD say the viewing angles are good even though they aren't perfect.

The L90D+ is spec'd for viewing angles of 150/135 while the Samsung 913N is 160/160. Considering the fact the the L90D+ uses the same panel wouldn't it have the same viewing angles and same contrast level? Maybe Hyundai just rated it a little more conservatively then Samsung does.



If thats true then why is the color reproduction of this LCD so good compaired to the CRT's its been put against?

http://www.behardware.com/articles/534/page4.html

The Hyundai L90D+ uses a new custom 8ms panel made by Samsung. Isn't it possible that maybe the color reproduction is a little better then what you've seen on other TN panels? Is there some law that states its impossible for any TN panel to display 16.7M colors or is it just common practice that current ones havn't?

The L90D+ says 16.7M in its specs but i guess its only 16.2M like you say?

Compare the color reproduction of the Samsung 910N (PVA panel) to that of the L90D+.

http://www.behardware.com/articles/534/page7.html
Even when you look at the screen directly from the center you can see the top is darker than the bottom due to poor viewing angles. In the very same article you posted they complain about the viewing angles which are even more narrow than with usual TN matrix. If anyone finds them "wonderful" then they will describe all LCDs as "wonderful" when it comes to viewing angles as this monitor has pretty much the worst viewing angles of all newer monitors.

It's not impossible that the color reproduction is a bit better than usual but yes, there is a "law" that all fast TN panels are 6-bit. Read the article in the sticky. Color reproduction is a complex characteristic which cannot be described by a single graph or parameter.
 
Roger said:
Even when you look at the screen directly from the center you can see the top is darker than the bottom due to poor viewing angles. In the very same article you posted they complain about the viewing angles which are even more narrow than with usual TN matrix. If anyone finds them "wonderful" then they will describe all LCDs as "wonderful" when it comes to viewing angles as this monitor has pretty much the worst viewing angles of all newer monitors.

It's not impossible that the color reproduction is a bit better than usual but yes, there is a "law" that all fast TN panels are 6-bit. Read the article in the sticky. Color reproduction is a complex characteristic which cannot be described by a single graph or parameter.

I never said the viewing angles were great. What i said was that when your sitting in front of the LCD your NOT going to have an issue with viewing angles. It does not look darker at the top then the bottom when your viewing directly at the center. I really dont know where your getting that from because that hasn't been said by anyone that has reviewed this panel or anyone that has this panel and it didn't look that way in any of the pics in the review ither. The reason they commented about the viewing angles on the TN panels is because they also had some other panels like PVA panels in the review and of course the viewing angles are more extreme.

The viewing angles should be the same for the Samsung 913N and Hyandai L90D+ models considering they use the same panel.

The article in the sticky was produced in October 2004 and was probably wrote long before that as are most X-bit labs articles because they get posted on their russian site first and then just later translated and posted in english on the other site. I dont see any law that states the color reproduction is always going to be worse on TN panels then on other panels like PVA. Compare the L90D+'s color production results to one of the PVA panels in the review. There is a reason why the LCD had the highest score out of all of them and it wasn't just cause it had an 8ms panel.

Do you have any links to graphs that compare the color reproduction of top TN panels to PVA/IPS matrices?

A little more info about the monitor. The viewing angle is WONDERFUL. There is a noticeable color temperature change once you view the LCD from either left or right. It looks warmer (as in tan/beige-ish) whereas when you sit in front of the monitor, it looks perfect. When you stand right above it and look down at an extreme angle, it looks lighter, but everything is easily still visible, as it is from the sides as well. It's barely noticeable and not a problem at all (for me at least).

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=364128

I have two of these panels on order and i should have one of them in the next week or so and then i'll find out for sure just how good the viewing angles really are :p.
 
Wait, so you don't actually own the monitor and have never seen one in person? You are going to have problems with viewing angles even if you sit directly in front of the monitor. Well, at least I do anyway. At "extreme" angles like 130 degrees, you can see something on the screen but the same shade of color is going to be very different on the top of the screen than on the bottom, even if you sit perpendicular to it. Also, they didn't compare it's viewing angles to PVA matrixes. They said the viewing angles are too narrow even for that type of the matrix.

Yes, the article is a few months old, but this particular panel didn't bring anything new apart from it's speed. It's still a 6-bit panel and it still in reality displays only 262k color which is simply unnaceptable for graphic design.
 
Roger said:
Wait, so you don't actually own the monitor and have never seen one in person? You are going to have problems with viewing angles even if you sit directly in front of the monitor. Well, at least I do anyway. At "extreme" angles like 130 degrees, you can see something on the screen but the same shade of color is going to be very different on the top of the screen than on the bottom, even if you sit perpendicular to it. Also, they didn't compare it's viewing angles to PVA matrixes. They said the viewing angles are too narrow even for that type of the matrix.

Yes, the article is a few months old, but this particular panel didn't bring anything new apart from it's speed. It's still a 6-bit panel and it still in reality displays only 262k color which is simply unnaceptable for graphic design.

Hyundai L90D+

http://www.diablonet.net/~kelly/22/l90d/left.jpg

The vertical viewing angle might not be as good as some but the horizontal viewing angle is satisfactory.

You can see the viewing angles of the Samsung 913N which uses the same panel in this review.

http://www.behardware.com/articles/539/page1.html
 
burningrave101 said:
Hyundai L90D+

http://www.diablonet.net/~kelly/22/l90d/left.jpg

The vertical viewing angle might not be as good as some but the horizontal viewing angle is satisfactory.

You can see the viewing angles of the Samsung 913N which uses the same panel in this review.

http://www.behardware.com/articles/539/page1.html
Well, those pics don't tell much now do they? I'm really sensitive about this viewing angles problem with TN panels. I sold my "perfect" Samsung 710T (no dead pixels, no backlight leaking) because of that. The horizontal viewing angle is satisfactory. When you move your head a little to the left or right you can see the colors changing but when you sit in front of a monitor it's not an issue. The real problem is with vertical viewing angles. On TN panels, they are so narrow that they only look GOOD when you look at them from the center. Now, even if you sit directly in front of the screen you are still looking at the corners at an angle and the top of the screen always looks darker than the bottom. You can read that in just about every review of TN screens on xbitlabs. All TN monitors have the same problem and there is no exceptions. If that doesn't bother you then yeah, the L90D+ seems like a really nice screen for home use. Not really suitable for a graphic designer though. PVA and S-IPS screens are much better for that.
 
Well, I think I need a PVA panel. TN panels does not offer 16.7 million of colors. EIZO has released a awesome panels in these days and Samsung has announced great TFT monitor in the near future. We'll see.
 
I just have the same question, what lcd will be good for my grapics designs works and games?

I was looking the dell 2001FP but I dont know
 
joses0 said:
I just have the same question, what lcd will be good for my grapics designs works and games?

I was looking the dell 2001FP but I dont know

The Hyandai L90D+ 19" would be the best for gaming because of the 8ms panel and i'm sure it would be as good as the 2001FP as far as color reproduction goes because the 2001FP is a 16ms TN panel i believe. Its also alot cheaper. I got mine from TigerDirect for $369.99.

If you go for a monitor more inclined for perfect 24-bit then you'll lose in the area of response time and it wont be as good for gaming. You will most likely experience ghosting especially in fast paced games.
 
joses0 said:
I just have the same question, what lcd will be good for my grapics designs works and games?

I was looking the dell 2001FP but I dont know

For me, there are not. I mean If you have a TFT with 20ms or less you can be sure it is a TN. And if the panel is TN you don't have 16.7 million of real colors.
But I think you can play on PVA panel perfectly.

I think this EIZO is a PVA panel with good time response, according the manufacturer specifications:

http://www1.alternate.de/html/shop/productDetails.html?artno=V3LE37&

Too expensive, I hope the price go down in the next months...
 
burningrave101 said:
The Hyandai L90D+ 19" would be the best for gaming because of the 8ms panel and i'm sure it would be as good as the 2001FP as far as color reproduction goes because the 2001FP is a 16ms TN panel i believe. Its also alot cheaper. I got mine from TigerDirect for $369.99.

If you go for a monitor more inclined for perfect 24-bit then you'll lose in the area of response time and it wont be as good for gaming. You will most likely experience ghosting especially in fast paced games.
The 2001FP is S-IPS, not TN. S-IPS panels are known for accurate color reproduction (24-bit) and wide viewing angles which makes the 2001FP a much better choice. Yes, it's "only" 16ms but it's response time doesn't vary that much across the whole color spectrum while all those 8ms LCDs reach that speed only about 5% of the time.
 
Roger said:
The 2001FP is S-IPS, not TN. S-IPS panels are known for accurate color reproduction (24-bit) and wide viewing angles which makes the 2001FP a much better choice. Yes, it's "only" 16ms but it's response time doesn't vary that much across the whole color spectrum while all those 8ms LCDs reach that speed only about 5% of the time.

Alot of people notice some form of ghosting at certain periods on the 2001FP even though some say they dont notice any at all ever. The new Samsung 8ms is the fastest panel available on the market and alot of people already have them as i've been following threads for the LCD on about six different forums. They are reporting no ghosting whatsoever in even the most intensive fps.

Samsung also has a new zero dead pixel policy that was suppost to go into affect on January 1st 2005 and they will replace your LCD free of charge at any point within a 6 month period if you get a single dead pixel from what i understand. That would make for a very good reason to get one of the new Samsung 913N/915N's when their available in the US.

Where are you getting that 5% of the time from for the 8ms panels? If that was true then they would have a greater occurance of ghosting 95% of the time and unlike the 2001FP ghosting is near non-existant. The afterglow is still not as perfect as a CRT but its much better then teh 16ms panels out there.

I would like you to provide some links that show the color reproduction of the top TN panels vs other IPS and PVA panels. I know that IPS and PVA panels are better in that sense but i want to see just what kind of difference there really is. If you look at the comparative color tests used in reviews for the new 8ms, 12ms, and 16ms panels you'll see its very good when compaired to CRT's and other IPA, PVA, MVA panels.

http://www.behardware.com/articles/534/page4.html

One of its positives in that review was very good color quality.

Now explain to me how the human eye could make that much of a descernable difference between two panels that are produceing perfect and near perfect color reproduction.

MonroeM said:
Indeed, there is no more twinkling than my Sony Diamondtron NF 19", as a side-by-side comparison. Regarding pictures looking "too digital", as I said in another thread, almost any monitor, if the brightness is cranked up high enough, will make any picture look "digital". For clarification, when I say "digital", I mean the compression of the picture, which is apparent on almost any monitor, CRT or LCD, if the brightness is high enough.

Basically you can tell the picture has some compression in it. I own one Diamondtron (now) and the L90D+ and side-by-side, the L90D+ is twice as crisp and clear. This is not to say that the L90D+ is abnormally sharp or clear, but there is an obvious amount of detail that yields higher on the L90D+ than even my Diamondtron.

Stoff, I also do some photo restoration and image editing and I've recently discovered that this monitor is so much nicer than my previous Sonys. The color is perfect, vibrant and accurate, and the picture is sharp. In all honesty, the picture may be too sharp for some coming from CRT monitors. Most LCDs are much sharper than most CRTs, as I've experienced.

This is indeed a great LCD and would suit you well being an image editor, IMHO. I know it has, me.

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=364128

And lets not forget the fact that Dell LCD's are plagued with issues of dead pixels and backlighting problems and other such things and you usually have to end up RMA'ing multiple times before you get one thats near perfect.
 
burningrave101 said:
Alot of people notice some form of ghosting at certain periods on the 2001FP even though some say they dont notice any at all ever. The new Samsung 8ms is the fastest panel available on the market and alot of people already have them as i've been following threads for the LCD on about six different forums. They are reporting no ghosting whatsoever in even the most intensive fps.
Actually I've seen quite a few posts about how the new 8ms panel still ghosts. Some people also say there is no ghosting whatsoever on 25ms PVA panels. It's all matter how sensitive you are to it but the fact is, LCDs are still nowhere near as fast as CRTs and there will be some blurring.

burningrave101 said:
Samsung also has a new zero dead pixel policy that was suppost to go into affect on January 1st 2005 and they will replace your LCD free of charge at any point within a 6 month period if you get a single dead pixel from what i understand. That would make for a very good reason to get one of the new Samsung 913N/915N's when their available in the US.
Doesn't that apply in Korea only?

burningrave101 said:
Where are you getting that 5% of the time from for the 8ms panels? If that was true then they would have a greater occurance of ghosting 95% of the time and unlike the 2001FP ghosting is near non-existant. The afterglow is still not as perfect as a CRT but its much better then teh 16ms panels out there..
Read some reviews where they actually measure the response time and you'll be surprised. 8ms panels only reach that speed on black-to-white transitions while grey-to-grey transitions may take up to 30ms. It is better than 16ms panels, but nowhere near twice as fast as the numbers would suggest.

burningrave101 said:
Now explain to me how the human eye could make that much of a descernable difference between two panels that are produceing perfect and near perfect color reproduction.
Like someone said, all you need to do is to compare a gradient fill on 18bit vs 24bit LCD and the difference will be obvious. If I were a graphic designer, I wouldn't touch a TN LCD with a ten feet pole.
 
Roger said:
Actually I've seen quite a few posts about how the new 8ms panel still ghosts. Some people also say there is no ghosting whatsoever on 25ms PVA panels. It's all matter how sensitive you are to it but the fact is, LCDs are still nowhere near as fast as CRTs and there will be some blurring.

Link me to them. I havn't seen anyone complaing about the new 8ms panel having ghosting issues.


Roger said:
Doesn't that apply in Korea only?

The US PR rep for Samsung said they were currently investigating how to implement the policy in the US.

Roger said:
Read some reviews where they actually measure the response time and you'll be surprised. 8ms panels only reach that speed on black-to-white transitions while grey-to-grey transitions may take up to 30ms. It is better than 16ms panels, but nowhere near twice as fast as the numbers would suggest.

Thats true but all TN panels are not the same and the way Samsung rates their panels is different then others. Samsung's 25ms panels actually ghost less then even some of the 16ms panels out there.

Roger said:
Like someone said, all you need to do is to compare a gradient fill on 18bit vs 24bit LCD and the difference will be obvious. If I were a graphic designer, I wouldn't touch a TN LCD with a ten feet pole.

I'm not a graphics design expert or anything but if the color reproduction is good enough on the LCD panel as it is when you compare it to a CRT according to the naked eye then what does it really matter if a gradient fill shows a slight difference? If you can't tell a real difference between the colors yourself then how is it going to help you any when your selecting colors or whatever it is that most graphics design artists do? I just dont understand why the colors have to exactly perfect if they look good enough compaired to a CRT.

Not all TN panels have the same quality of color reproduction. If you look at some of the other TN panels in that review i linked to not all of them did as well as the L90D+ and Samsung 913N.
 
i have been looking for a "good" lcd monitor for awhile now and have yet to find the perfect one.

as it has been stated there is no perfect lcd monitor

and this becomes critical when your dealing with proffesional graphic design .

The talk about gradients being a unjustified reason to knock the tn panels is sad,
sure tn display look great react great and are great for general purpose ..

but when some one is paying you to get the colors right on their logo, web page, pictures, or graphic media.

And you keep sending them media that look right on your "awesome name xxxx panel here"

When the client recieves them they are off by some small margin of error .
you usually end up with a phone a call and then there is diagnosing whats wrong is it his monitor ? is it the grpahic card ? is his settings right ? ... blah blah blah
it cant be on your end because you bought the awesome xxxx display that is so highly regarded ...

in the end the the client gets a 2nd opinon from some one knowledgeable with test equipment and shows him that his equipment is spot on .

Aand that Mr "proffesional" with the "awesome" display is unable to see the problem because he is using substandard equipment that limits his abillity to create exact reproductions that the client had asked for . so guess what .... by by client .


what is sad is that the consumer is willing to except these comprimises take for instance the much refered to link on how great the L90D+ is http://www.behardware.com/articles/534/page4.html

in regards to watching movies on this monitor

"We usually see a strong “twinckling” effect, pixels moving apparently randomly (fortunately in restricted areas). It is a rather unpleasant up to 2 meter distance. After 2m this effect disappears"

for those who think 2m is nothing thats 6' you can make your determination if thats suitable or not.

now albeit dvd is not perfect either it can be used as a mark for color tests because most movies are not built on a color pallet of 16.7 million colors but more like something called um infinity...

post production and mpeg 2 compression methods technical discussion put to
the side

its obvious that this display is not capable of meeting the demands of someone who relies on an accurate display.

but yet it is raved about BY consumers who are willing to accept comprimises in what really should matter about a display and that is the picture quality and accuracy.
unfortuneatly the bar that these displays have to meet is the good enough bar
sure its useable and works well but can you rely on it to show you the actual reproduction
of the media that it is on the display ? the answer is a resounding NO !!

and all displays that fail that one question should take a toll in their overall reviews
unfortuneatly that is not the standard to which the monitors are being put against ..

what is despressing is that these same standards have seeped into the professional world where good enough is accepted and who cares about quality

why ? its not needed because there is nothing out there anymore that can reproduce quality correctly any how .

and with this same attitude we will all be perfectly content with 256 colors displays that dither endlessy to create a representation of true color and we all will accept that 60 hz is fast enough and and there is no need for anything that is better because what we have now is "good enough" .
 
chaos4u said:
what is sad is that the consumer is willing to except these comprimises take for instance the much refered to link on how great the L90D+ is http://www.behardware.com/articles/534/page4.html

in regards to watching movies on this monitor

"We usually see a strong “twinckling” effect, pixels moving apparently randomly (fortunately in restricted areas). It is a rather unpleasant up to 2 meter distance. After 2m this effect disappears"

for those who think 2m is nothing thats 6' you can make your determination if thats suitable or not.

now albeit dvd is not perfect either it can be used as a mark for color tests because most movies are not built on a color pallet of 16.7 million colors but more like something called um infinity...

post production and mpeg 2 compression methods technical discussion put to
the side

its obvious that this display is not capable of meeting the demands of someone who relies on an accurate display.

but yet it is raved about BY consumers who are willing to accept comprimises in what really should matter about a display and that is the picture quality and accuracy.
unfortuneatly the bar that these displays have to meet is the good enough bar
sure its useable and works well but can you rely on it to show you the actual reproduction
of the media that it is on the display ? the answer is a resounding NO !!

and all displays that fail that one question should take a toll in their overall reviews
unfortuneatly that is not the standard to which the monitors are being put against ..

what is despressing is that these same standards have seeped into the professional world where good enough is accepted and who cares about quality

why ? its not needed because there is nothing out there anymore that can reproduce quality correctly any how .

and with this same attitude we will all be perfectly content with 256 colors displays that dither endlessy to create a representation of true color and we all will accept that 60 hz is fast enough and and there is no need for anything that is better because what we have now is "good enough" .

I'll be doing some testing this week when mine comes monday but quite a few people on other forums already have theirs and in regards to the dithering they said it was near non-existant. Several users also said they didn't notice the "twinkling" effect while watching DVD's.

The color reproduction on the L90D+ was near perfect in that review even compared to the CRT and the true 24-bit LCD's. I seriously doubt the color production difference would be drastic enough to actually matter. Alot of the cheap TN panels out there dont have very good color reproduction compared to 24-bit LCD's and that is why TN panels are said to suck in that area. But the L90D+ got points for doing so well with color reproduction.

The Samsung 8ms panel is also untouched in the area of gaming. No other LCD comes close to performing as well. Its the fastest panel currently available and performance is nearly as good as that of a CRT.

You guys should go out and read a few of replies from users that already have this LCD instead of drawing your own conclusion just from the fact it uses a TN panel and TN panels are suppost to all suck in everything but response time.

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1027241512#post1027241512

http://www.behardware.com/articles/534/page4.html

I'm not sure if you guys interpreted the graphs used for color reproduction testing or not but the L90D+ as well as several of the other new TN panels did very well. The L90D+'s blues were just as good as the Mitsubishi DP930SB CRT, the green's were slightly worse, and the reds were actually better.

For color accuracy we used a LaCie colorimeter. The Blue Eye 2 probe from this professional picture company is based on the Xrite tool and also includes software developed by LaCie. We use this colorimeter to check the screen’s color spectrum and then to calibrate it. It’s placed on the screen and measures the difference between the desired and displayed color. A color table is then created and it attempts to correct errors.
 
I'm not a graphics design expert or anything but if the color reproduction is good enough on the LCD panel as it is when you compare it to a CRT according to the naked eye then what does it really matter if a gradient fill shows a slight difference?


Problem is the difference isn't slight. The difference between a 18bit and 24bit gradient is huge. Color reproduction on lcd just doesn't cut it... at least not yet.
 
burningrave101 said:
I'll be doing some testing this week when mine comes monday but quite a few people on other forums already have theirs and in regards to the dithering they said it was near non-existant. Several users also said they didn't notice the "twinkling" effect while watching DVD's.

The color reproduction on the L90D+ was near perfect in that review even compared to the CRT and the true 24-bit LCD's. I seriously doubt the color production difference would be drastic enough to actually matter. Alot of the cheap TN panels out there dont have very good color reproduction compared to 24-bit LCD's and that is why TN panels are said to suck in that area. But the L90D+ got points for doing so well with color reproduction.

The Samsung 8ms panel is also untouched in the area of gaming. No other LCD comes close to performing as well. Its the fastest panel currently available and performance is nearly as good as that of a CRT.

You guys should go out and read a few of replies from users that already have this LCD instead of drawing your own conclusion just from the fact it uses a TN panel and TN panels are suppost to all suck in everything but response time.

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1027241512#post1027241512

http://www.behardware.com/articles/534/page4.html

I'm not sure if you guys interpreted the graphs used for color reproduction testing or not but the L90D+ as well as several of the other new TN panels did very well. The L90D+'s blues were just as good as the Mitsubishi DP930SB CRT, the green's were slightly worse, and the reds were actually better.
If I were you, I would wait to get the monitor before jumping to conclusions about perfect color reproduction and CRT like experience in games. Just because people of forums say so doesn't make it true. How many people really need accurate colors? How many people know what accurate colors are? If you actually look at the graph in that review you'll see the color reproduction isn't really perfect. Even if we ignore the dithering and assume the screen can really display 16.2m colors, the fact that 0.5 milion colors can't be displayed alone should be enough for a graphic designer to avoid TN panels like the plague.

Like I said, I'm sure it's a good monitor for home use but still it's the worst choice a graphic designer could make. Narrow viewing angles and 18-bit color are huge downsides for that type of work.
 
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