Tesla Towing A Car Beats Alfa Romeo 4C In 1/4 Mile

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by HardOCP News, May 25, 2016.

  1. Chevy Corvette $50K will beat top speed, out accelerate 1/8, 1/4, 1 mile, out class, out look, out corner, out brake. Any questions?
     
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  2. Flybye

    Flybye Limp Gawd

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    We all know automatics win races but real manuals are funner to drive and allow you to feel more as a whole with the machine.
     
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  3. Shift lag pisses me off. If it can't down blip two gears in 1 second, I want my manual back. Besides slush boxes aren't 100% efficient on the torque transfer.
     
  4. MarkVI

    MarkVI Limp Gawd

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    I think we're a dying breed. They'll have to pry my manual transmission out of my cold, dead hands. There's no question that the DCTs they're making these days are impressive, but why own a sports car if it isn't fun and involving? Unless you're a race car driver, who cares about a tenth here or there? Also, who wants to pay to repair a DCT!
     
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  5. Dullard

    Dullard 2[H]4U

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    I bet "How do we make this thing more practical" is about as far down the supercar manufacturer's list as "being practical" is on the list of supercar buyers. A mechanical Rolex won't keep better time than a quartz Timex, Rolex owners probably didn't have "practical" at the top of their list, either.
     
  6. Flybye

    Flybye Limp Gawd

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    Lol civics. My car people consist of me with my RX7, a guy with a turbo 996 and a 69 vette, another with an STI, a turbo mini (its cute but it does do 140!), and a Genesis. Hey the new Type R turbo Civic DOES reach around 165, so maybe Civics arent that bad after all anymore. :)

    Anyways, people that love skydiving know the risks. People that go jumping off cliffs with a suit that looks a flying squirrel know the risks. People that swim with sharks know the risks. I know my risks, and I dont endanger others. If Im provided with a clean traffic-free and straight road, then Ill do what I enjoy.
     
  7. Flybye

    Flybye Limp Gawd

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    DITTO! Hence why I refuse to let go of my RX7. No traction control, manual, light weight, no silly electronics getting in the way. Its just pure fun.

    And now they make sports cars with fake engine noises coming of the stereo. :rolleyes:
     
  8. Flybye

    Flybye Limp Gawd

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    There are regular automatics with flappy paddels that are all crap. They are just regular automatics. Its only a marketing tool.

    Now dual clutch transmissions are a different animal all together. I wont pretend to say I know exactly how they work, but from what I know they basically preengage the next gear so that it very quickly upshifts.
     
  9. capt_cope

    capt_cope Gawd

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    Wow so impressive and shocking that the tesla won. That really changed my opinion of the brand, the people who buy teslas, and electric cars in general.

    Oh wait, it didn't.

    It's a stupid comparison on par with comparing an arduino to a 2011v3 rig with SLI 980ti... by measuring power consumption. I'm sure we're all eagerly awaiting those results.
     
  10. Pyroja

    Pyroja Gawd

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    I wouldn't be so sure about all of those claims.

    Standard Vette ($55k) will not beat a ludicrous mode Tesla Model X (or Model S) on a drag strip. But, I mean, we're comparing an SUV to a dedicated sports car. This is silly.

    The point of these matchups isn't to make the Teslas come off as sports cars. It's to show the world that an electric sedan or an electric SUV can have all the power you'd ever need to do 99.99% of the things people do in cars. And it doesn't use gas. And they can charge quick enough for most purposes. And it doesn't compromise on comfort or capability.

    Anyhow, I think this is frickin' cool. I hope to one day be able to afford a Tesla for myself. Would probably spoil me for any other car, though =P
     
  11. People are comparing ICE to EV, not racing class to racing class, having seen cars based on ICE and EV in the same chassis, meaning the only real change being the drive train, the EV is still far behind. People also forget the unlimited classes or top tier racing like F1 is restricted in power and speed, F1 actually use to be faster and more powerful, a lot of this regulation has not made it to the EV cars yet that in some classes are putting out 1k ftlbs of TQ, while the ICE engines could do the same, they are not allowed to, this is what many people forget, F1 has an engine size, RPM and HP restrictions, they have also put in MASSIVE aero restrictions because they were hitting corner speeds far faster than they wanted to allow.

    Any new tech will advance very fast at first, and there are people in EV racing who are already pushing the limit, and it has not moved very far very fast at all, the motors and controllers are there, the batteries are not, we have not seen massive jumps in capacity and endurance in some time, and this is the main limiting factor, unless they deiced to allow atomic batteries to be manufactured. Few is often 2-3, but I will give you 5 years, $1,000 bet right now, that under the same conditions and rules, laps etc etc, the EV bikes will not be beating the ICE, the ONLY way this would happen is a huge advancement in battery tech, as right now, they would not even finish the same race the ICE bikes are.
     
  12. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Retrofitting a gas engine chassis, is a terrible way to design an EV, and will lead to sub-optimal results.

    It isn't moving very fast? In about 5 years EVs went from back of the pack at Pikes Peak, to Winning overall. At TT Zero, EV bikes are adding about 4MPH overall average/year. In 5 or 10 years, the TT lap record will likely belong to an electric bike. You were off by Aprox three minutes/20MPH because you didn't look at the latest results. It's changing that fast.

    You are simply back to long multi lap racing being the constraint. Which only matters in long multi-lap racing.

    So again, who really cares that Nascar won't go EV?
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  13. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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    No doubt, but what I'm saying is that you don't have to worry about the automatic knowing what gear you want when on the track if you select manual mode.
    In a track setting you're going to want to row it down individual gears to take advantage of engine braking, but I can see your point. The ability to skip gears is more useful in driving on public roads than anything. Dual-, auto-clutch manuals are very efficient at quickly selecting gears.
     
  14. Explain why a ICE chassis and a EV will not work, or do you have ANY idea how chassis, weight and suspension setups work? These are not road going cars, these are tube chassis, very little is changed, or needs to be changed. Most also can not be changed very much because of regulation of safety requirements, but I am guessing you have little experience with building custom tube chassis race cars? The only exception being top tier Formula E that use composite formed chassis and body. However, even then, the whole front half if the car is just about identical to the ICE cars, and the rear is also almost the same with trans-axle cases and mounting points almost just like the ICE ones. What works, works, it doesn't matter what is powering it, going from ICE to EV doesn't magically throw out all understanding of suspension geometry or chassis rigidity.

    As I have said, I love EV, but the EV worship and claims of what it is not, as if its made from unicorn farts is getting old, lets do a compairison:

    Formula E rear push rod suspension, trans-axle mounting and engine placement.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Now lets look at F1 and ICE engine/trans-axle placement and suspension.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Maybe you should go tell the Formula E teams they should stop using that horrible old ICE F1 chassis, suspension, engine and drive train layout. :facepalm:

    Lap record vs normal times put in are NOT the same thing. And multi lap racing is the whole point, if you build a short endurance ICE that can only make it a single lap, you could up power, drop weight etc etc, your choice in tires change EVERYTHING changes if you have no need to have any sort of endurance, I don't understand why people don't get this. If the EV had the same race requirements as the ICE they would have to greatly reduce speed to be able to have the power to make the full race. That is the whole point, people are talking about replacing ICE sports cars and race cars, when they are not even close to being where ICE cars are, even when you cater to them by reducing a two hour race down to a single lap they are still far behind.

    the big changes you see in lap times are also due to most of the first bikes/cars were small teams, little funding, many teams could not afford the best of the best or have a custom drive train or control units made for them. Then in the last few years, you have the likes of BMW, Toyota, Mugen etc getting into the races, which brings HUGE resources and money.

    I find it funny people are claiming about the doom of ICE and EV not just being able to compete with them but wiping them out...But when someone tries to hold those EV to the same requirements and amount of laps, they start kicking and screaming its not fair. o_O
     
  15. Stimpy88

    Stimpy88 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Your missing the point of my comment... Tesla don't make racing or muscle cars. And yes, the Tesla is much more expensive, but again, it's not aimed at beating a Chevy Corvette round a track.

    One day somebody, maybe Tesla, will make an electric high end sports/racing/track car, with a racing chassis and it will not be beaten by a car with an ICE. As I said, we just need the battery tech first.
     
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  16. They don't, the problem is once you start making comparisons to sport or race cars and talking doom and gloom, you are going to get a reality check. Which is what people in this thread were doing.

    And the claim "will not be beaten by a car with an ICE, once I have my unicorn", is a cop out, anything anywhere can make the claim to be better.....As soon as I get this one thing that doesn't exist and is far far off in the future. You know, ICE will not be beaten by ANY EV, just as soon as we get to 100% efficiency. You see how that works?
     
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  17. -Strelok-

    -Strelok- [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Meanwhile in the actual world, a P85D with the ludicrous mode will beat a Z06.

    http://www.zeroto60times.com/compare-cars/

    If that link doesn't work, the P85D is 2.8/10.9 while the Z06 is 3.1/11.1. On top of that traction on a Tesla won't have issues putting the power down on regular roads compared to a Corvette.
     
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  18. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I said sub-optimal. Not that it won't work.


    For the third time, whole point of what? It is irrelevant for public road cars used for personal transportation.

    We still have this for entertainment, but we don't use horses for personal transportation anymore:

    [​IMG]

    So, we can keep having this as an entertainment spectacle, while people actually switch to driving EVs in the real world:

    [​IMG]



    I find it funny that in every thread about EV ROAD CARS, people have to harp about track racing, like it's a critical requirement of personal road cars. It isn't.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
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  19. Stimpy88

    Stimpy88 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Your wrong, and the unicorn is simply battery technology. Why do you think that a Tesla exists today? Answer - LiPo cells.

    The next generation of battery will be what enables a car to race round a track at high speed and comparable distance to an ICE powered race car, but we need an order of magnitude capacity increase before that can be reality. It will come.
     
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  20. Stimpy88

    Stimpy88 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yeah, it's what I noticed too, that and the shear number of professional race drivers and race car mechanics that also own race cars, and seem to drive them on public roads, that also happen to belong to this forum.

    I will put this simply...

    TESLA DO NOT MAKE A RACE CAR, OR A TRACK CAR, OR A MUSCLE CAR. AND NOBODY SAYS THAT THEY DO!!!

    All people are saying is basically "wow, look at that EV beat the crap out of 3/4 of the worlds sports cars, and it's not even a sports car, and it runs of electricity, and makes almost no noise, and looks like a normal car!

    We can all say that a Tesla with Ludicrous mode will beat most cars in acceleration to nearly 100MPH. And on a normal public road, I would say that a Tesla is way more fun to drive than half of those muscle cars, and low end sports cars, ON A PUBLIC ROAD, NOT A RACE TRACK, where a powerful race car or sports car is going to be amazing, handle better, and give better feedback to the driver.
     
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  21. {NG}Fidel

    {NG}Fidel [H]ardness Supreme

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    Waah Waah it has no loud gasoline engine it must be shit.
    Hopefully shuts some ppl up lmao!
     
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  22. MarkVI

    MarkVI Limp Gawd

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    If that's all people were saying, nobody would be arguing here. If you look carefully at some of the previous comments, you'll some along the lines of "ICEs are obsolete now" and "the Tesla is the perfect car and does everything well." I don't think anyone is saying that the Tesla isn't an impressive piece of technology. Even so, at this point, it hardly renders all gas powered vehicle obsolete. Whether or not a Tesla is more fun on a public road is purely a matter of taste. I'm sure many people would agree with you while many of us would rather drive something lighter that you can throw around corners or something that more or less matches the Tesla's drag racing speed at a fraction of the cost.
     
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  23. collegeboy69us

    collegeboy69us [H]ardness Supreme

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    Congrats on confirming your level of retard. I did do a cost analysis... and I'll be saving around 100 dollars a month in gas. Thanks to cheap TX electricity and free charging at work, makes never spending a drop on gas (and I drive around 1700 miles a month)

    I'm coming froma 2012 Kia rio -- paid for, but bottom of the barrel in terms of quality and tech. It's worth spending some money to have a nice car again. With anyone in the market for a car, you could apply the same screwball logic of yours and we'd all go out and buy a $3000 beater to get from A to B. Some people are happy to spend a little more and get what they want. The audi R8 and Lamborghini share the same engine... oh man, the poor soul that was dumb enough to buy the R8 instead of the gallardo... the 6th gen Z06 and high spec camaro shared the same 7L engine, I'm sure Z06 owners just felt terrible about that? Fun fact: I was one of those owners, had an 08 Z06 that I loved, was a beast till I sold it to buy a house.

    Why not apply the same logic to everything? Pfft who would want to buy that new GTX 1080 -- it's just a slightly faster version of the 980ti. Why go out and buy a steak? it's just the same calories I'd get from beans and rice in a better tasting package.

    It amazes me there's never a shortage of people who are happy to tell others what they should and shouldn't do with their own money.
     
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  24. collegeboy69us

    collegeboy69us [H]ardness Supreme

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    Might want to do some more reading on what's going on with electric cars. The 2nd Gen volt I have is pure electric, it just happens to have it's own onboard power plant to keep you going when the batteries are depleted. 420 miles on a full charge and tank. It's really the best of both worlds. If you are a truly 100% city person you'll never have to put gas in it, someone on the other side of the world can drive the same car and never actually need to plug it in if they so choose. Having options is never a bad thing.
     
  25. Stimpy88

    Stimpy88 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Actually a full charge on and empty tesla takes just under 2 hours, and to get to 80% on an empty Tesla 90kW takes 40mins.

    It's still not good enough, but hardly 4 hours.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
  26. csshih

    csshih Gawd

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    Do you commute 200+ miles a day? As a Model S owner I have no problems with my city commute, but I really wonder how long you are.
     
  27. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    Not every day but frequently. My job profile consists of consulting at customer premises and my trips are 2 to 400 miles one way.
     
  28. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    Provided that you have a speed charging station at the arctic village your battery runs out at :D
    Naah not going to risk it ;)
     
  29. Great you got a great lil drag racer there. Lets see if beat a regular corvette on a track without killing the battery quicky, overheating the motors, or performance issues because it's frame and suspension aren't designed for it.

    DOH!
     
  30. -Strelok-

    -Strelok- [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I don't remember giving a shit about a track. On the road 0-60 is much more relevant than cornering speed or any other metric used for race cars.
     
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  31. So Formula E is sub-optimal, should I tell them or do you want to?




    All the posts I was replying to and MOST of the comments in this thread and even the VIDEO this thread is about, is about racing, or did you not read the original post or any of the posts after that? Most of the comments specifically stated that EV can and now will replace all ICE racing cars and sports cars, which is just ignorance. You then quoted my post and specifically referenced EVs racing right after claiming Tesla doesn't make race cars, which had nothing to do with the claims of the posts I was replying to.

    The Tesla doesn't use Lithium-ion polymer batteries....It uses Lithium-ion, and even then, that's your "new" advancement? Maybe you just have not been in the battery field very long, but I was using Li-ion batteries in my RC planes when I was a teen, hell, commercial use of them has been around for over 25 years, and were lab testing back in the 70's. So your first "magnitude capacity increase" has only been around for over 40 years. We sure are blazing away with one battery advancement after the next aren't we? It is also worth noting that Li-ion was not a magnitude over Ni-MH, it was actually very small gain over Ni-MH for size, the main advantage was the weight savings, not actual power density.

    And my unicorn is simply engine efficiency, you see how that works? Your battery tech is a unicorn because it doesn't exist. Could it some time in the future? Sure, but it does not exist right now, nor do we have anything pointing to a revolution in battery tech that is usable. Sure we have some lab examples of what might turn out to work great as super batteries, if you want to pay 10 million for a AA battery. We are at a wall with battery tech, it is not like CPUs or GPUs where we know we will see process size drop every few years and efficiency gain. As it is an electrochemical process and requires a material revolution to happen for the kind of new capacity advancements that would be required to hit the goals you are speaking about. All of the process and materials that are being tested with are extremely rare or unGodly expensive to make or require unrealistic environmental conditions.

    You are welcome to stop by and go for a ride in one of my cars, or I can take you to the shop I started in that still runs a few of the tube chassis drag cars I helped build, or the 9 second stock chassis, all metal all glass 63 Belvedere. I am no pro driver, and never claimed to be, I claimed to know how cars are built, and have extensive first hand experience working on and building cars from the ground up. I no longer do this professionally, I moved on to better paying careers so I could afford to have my own toys.

    So a $150,000 factory performance package car can beat most cars under $60k, amazing! There is a reason when proper comparisons are done, it is price range to price range. you can't take a 20-30k econobox or midsize and compare it to a S-Class Mercedes and say, well, there you have it, the S-Class beats all other cars for finish and comfort. The same is true for performance, you are taking a $50k car and comparing it to a $150k car, these are not even close to the same range, they should have used a GT-R (which is still cheaper by $40-50k) in the test, and the GTR would have won, and still have (worse case) 350,000 miles of gas money left over.

    I also like how you say its "more fun than most low end sports cars", but you are talking about a $150k highend car, well no shit its going to be better.
     
  32. Quite possibly. But the point of my comment this kind of acceleration is a 1 trick pony and doesn't serve any real purpose to make it useful.
     
  33. It's real fun to do drag racing. Don't get me wrong. Improving your trap time and how well you go through the gears takes some skill. I'm not ragging on drag racers. But on regular roads this is just silly.


    The world is full of curves that throw you around in your seat. I like how your body gets in tune with the car from the feedback of the wheel and suspension. You almost become one with a good car like a Porsche, Corvette, or Ferrari that is a real body on frame. "The feel of the seat of your pants" lets you know how far you can push it.
     
  34. DocSavage

    DocSavage 2[H]4U

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    Torque is also useful for accelerating out of corners. I'm sure in another 20 years of development we will see some amazing electric and hybrid race and sports cars.
     
  35. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    The Video is actually a review between two SUVs which has a drag race in it. Nothing about multi-lap track racing which seems to be the one thing you want to make it about, because EVs aren't as good as liquid fuel vehicles at that particular spectator event.
     
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  36. Pyroja

    Pyroja Gawd

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    Let's see a regular Corvette seat 4 comfortably.

    The Tesla Model S isn't a sports car and has never tried to be. It's a luxury sedan that just happens to beat out many sports cars in certain metrics.

    D'OH!
     
  37. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I beg to differ. Being able to take turns at higher speeds reduces reliance on brakes. Some freeways can be rather curvy, not to mention ramps between freeways.

    Acura NSX.
     
  38. Yet again, look at the comments I was replying to, and many comments since then, which are about how much better EV is at racing and how much better EV sports cars are than ICE sports/race cars. The video as posted here, and even the title of the thread, is about the drag race. Good grief, READ.


    The Corvette wipes the floor with the Tesla however and is cheaper sooo...Whats your point? Oh, I see, people who know cars point out the fact you are comparing a factory performance version $150k car to a $50k car, and when people point out the vette, while still much MUCH cheaper will beat it, you yell "BUT FOUR DOORS!!". Ok, I will bite, off the top of my head Audi RS7, BMW M6 Gran Coupe, AMG CLS63 S, Porsche Panamera Turbo, all 4 door, all VERY luxury cars, all faster than the Tesla, only two giving up 0-60 by about .2-.4 seconds to the Tesla, and even the slowest around the track, the RS7, beats the Tesla around a track. All of those, except a fully optioned out Panamera, are cheaper by about $40k than the Tesla to boot.

    How about looking up the many track driving videos of the Tesla, one of the best is the lap they tried to do of the Nurburgring ring, where it went into limp mode just 3 minutes into the run because of over heating. Even just prolonged aggressive street driving does this.

    The Tesla, just like other EVs, is a neat car, but be realistic and keep it in your pants. People keep making the claim it rapes all these sports cars, and when someone points out, those are 1/3 the price, or other cars that run all over the Tesla, it always falls back to "yes, but Tesla isn't a sports car" or "But the Tesla has 4 doors" etc etc. Which is fine and dandy, but why make claims to other wise then? All of these comments remind me of the fanboy GTR friend I have, sure, his GTR is fast (and mostly stock), but he will race cars everyone knows are slower, or find YT videos of an Alpha GTR (thats a tuner shop car that puts out 1,500 HP) racing a bolt on vette and make some stupid comment of "that's embarrassing for the vette". This is the same kind of fanboy logic I see being posted here.

    Also, for the claims Tesla is not trying to make a sports car...Then why do they have a factory performance package, which is what the ludicrous upgrade is. Let that sink in for a moment, you are using a performance package car, as an example of how it can beat other cheaper cars, but then step back when someone points out the flaw in that by saying "yes, but it's not a sports car".
     
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  39. ND40oz

    ND40oz [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If the choice is between the RS7 Performance and the P90D, I'm taking the RS7. The Tesla's performance is nice, but I'll sacrifice a couple tenths to 60 and save 10k all while enjoying the nicer Audi interior and that amazing 4.0Ls sound.
     
  40. If you are opting for the RS7 performance it might beat the Tesla, its the normal, old RS7 that was only a few tenths slower to 60 but almost a full second faster around the track it was tested at, and the RS7 Performance has a good bit more HP than the normal RS7. And yes, the interior is amazing in the RS7.