DarkStar02
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2006
- Messages
- 2,144
That is a hilarious and awesome idea.
![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
Tesla Downplays Danger of 'Bricked' Battery
- Thread starter HardOCP News
- Start date
That is a hilarious and awesome idea.
NoOther
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- May 14, 2008
- Messages
- 6,468
People have also been known to freeze laptop batteries for a day or two and then recharge them. However, they are never quite the same after that.
NoOther
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- May 14, 2008
- Messages
- 6,468
I keep hearing this, but this is a false misnomer. Someone could save up for a long time, and thus be able to "afford" to buy some exotic car. That does not mean they can all of a sudden "afford" a personal mechanic or driver. Hell, technically I could "afford" to buy one, but I certainly can't afford then to pay $40k on a repair or someone to watch it for me.
Well then we have different definitions of "afford" Afford doesn't mean technically having the money to pay for it using money carefully saved up. Hell, I could go to a loan shark right now and "afford" to buy a Tesla, that doesn't make it a good idea (See: housing bubble/predatory loans)
When you can truly afford to buy something it means that you don't have to worry about it at all... you just stroll in, whip out the cash/card and not a single damn was given about the bank balance that day because you know you have it covered 10x over.
NoOther
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- May 14, 2008
- Messages
- 6,468
Actually that isn't what afford means in any definition of the word afford:
1. to be able to do, manage, or bear without serious consequence or adverse effect: The country can't afford another drought.
2. to be able to meet the expense of; have or be able to spare the price of: Can we afford a trip to Europe this year? The city can easily afford to repair the street.
3. to be able to give or spare: He can't afford the loss of a day.
4. to furnish; supply: The transaction afforded him a good profit.
5. to be capable of yielding or providing: The records afford no explanation.
By afford to buy it, I don't mean I need to take out a loan, especially from a Loan Shark. I mean I could go out and buy it. I do not have to worry about making payments, or regular maintenance, I can cover those costs. But that does not mean I could then afford to have a driver or a personal mechanic. And it certainly doesn't mean I could afford a $40k repair job. Those are added expenses, not inclusive expenses. I can afford to have a house, but that does not mean I could afford a butler and a maid. It also doesn't mean I could afford to have the HVAC blow up. I think what you mean is to be affluent:
1. having an abundance of wealth, property, or other material goods; prosperous; rich: an affluent person.
2. abounding in anything; abundant.
3. flowing freely: an affluent fountain.
noun
4. a tributary stream.
5. an affluent person: a luxurious resort appealing to young affluents.
I can afford things, but I am not affluent. I don't just have money flowing out of my pockets that I can spend willy nilly. You may make choices and sacrifices to afford something.
I know a few owners of exotic cars that can afford the cars and the general repairs, but they certainly can't afford to just replace the car or have personal mechanics available at their whim. I even know two people that have Teslas and 3 more that have been saving up for them. As exotic cars go, they are some of the more affordable ones in many ways. But as almost all exotic cars go, they take a bit of maintenance and upkeep.
I reject your reality and substitute my own!!! Way to miss the point I was making and if you want to get technical mr. semantics pants, I said "we" have different definitions. I have one definition and you have one definition, I never claimed that mine was the dictionary definition nor that is was right. I was just offering my opinion in the the spirit of jest.
NoOther
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- May 14, 2008
- Messages
- 6,468
I understood the point you were making, perhaps not the one you were trying to make though, but I find it rather ridiculous. To say someone shouldn't buy something unless they can buy it 10x over is overkill. I am quite certain most people can't buy their homes 2x over, much less 10x over.
It is like people think either you have to be able to buy a ton of expensive things to just have one expensive things, or they should never buy expensive things. And these are people saying this on a hardware enthusiast board where people build crazy computers they don't actually need, just for the fun of it... I am sure there is a significant number of people on these boards that cannot buy their rigs 2x over without worrying about how they can make ends meet.
Seems the blog is wrong and the Tesla isn't that easy to brick, and is in fact very difficult to brick:
http://www.itworld.com/it-managementstrategy/252452/false-scare-tesla
"the Tesla battery pack is not a battery. It's a collection of more than 8,000 individual batteries. Each of those cells is independently managed."
This fact invalidates about 90% of this thread's arguments.
http://www.itworld.com/it-managementstrategy/252452/false-scare-tesla
"the Tesla battery pack is not a battery. It's a collection of more than 8,000 individual batteries. Each of those cells is independently managed."
This fact invalidates about 90% of this thread's arguments.
Hydrogen cars *are* electric cars, only instead of a Li-Ion battery you have hydrogen. Hydrogen being worse, as the percentage of energy you get out compared to what you put it is less than the percentage for a battery. The *only* advantage hydrogen has is the quick charge, but it has several drawbacks compared to batteries and is not a better long-term solution.
Over here in Orange County gas is hovering around 4.33 at freaking ARCO and 4.55 at Chevron. Well, that was around 3pm today. When I drive home tonight it'll probably be 4.75 :O
I'm not disagreeing with your points I'm just raging at the fact that I didn't fill up over the weekend and gas is increasing over here in So Cal literally within hours.
Monkey God
Mangina Full of Sand
- Joined
- May 7, 2007
- Messages
- 6,723
The fuck it does. A central controller should disconnect the entire battery pack when charge falls below a certain point, it should NOT be possible to permanently damage the batteries through normal operation. Any parasitic losses created by controllers and such should also be disconnected when this critical point is reached. Basic battery controller technology that Tesla choose not to implement.
NoOther
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- May 14, 2008
- Messages
- 6,468
Tesla chose not to? Really? You know that for a fact do you? It is not about permanently damaging the batteries. When these types of batteries are fully drained, they just cannot recharge, that is the way it goes. It is not damaging the battery, it is using the battery. And it isn't through normal operation either. Did you even read everything the article says and how rare the occurance was. And then there were several articles disputing that article. .2% that is 1/5 of 1% had an issue. What specifically caused the issue is unknown. But according to many sources, there would have to be a number of extenuanting circumstances to cause the problem.
Again, there is nothing to see here. A first edition car from a new car manufacturer that has a problem which occurs in .2% of its vehicles...oh noeesssss!!! Most other car manufacturers wish they had that kind of track record...
To elaborate further, Hydrogen is no fuel - it's just a storage means like a battery. Hydrogen isn't harvested, it's made by expending energy in the process.
Getting hydrogen is also "dirtier" then just using electricity directly:
Hydrogen is typically made from methane. This process not only requires energy itself but also releases CO2. You're better off just burning methane in a car.
Hydrogen can also be made from electrolysis of water - but this is an even worse idea. Electrolysis is something like 20-30% efficient. You're just throwing away 80% of electricity to do this. Don't forget your typical fuel cell arrangement is ~50% efficient.
If you power a hydrogen car like this you're taking 1kW of power plant electricity and turning it into 0.1kW car electricity. You could have just charged a battery directly from a power plant and gotten more like 0.9kW.
Fuel cell cars and battery cars run their motors off of electricity. Where's the best place (cheapest, cleanest) to get electricity? From a large scale power plant. Amazingly, you can tap into that electricity in your very home at only a 5% loss from that power plant.
Yes, solar may be an exception, because it can be "doable" on a small scale. But financially, it's borderline at best currently.
NoOther
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- May 14, 2008
- Messages
- 6,468
The sadder thing is that even the Model S even has this supposed battery design flaw.How about the Model X (SUV)?
Again "supposed" design flaw in .2% of all units. Which apparently is being debunked as well. In any case, I will gladly take my chances with those odds, compared to say...the braking/accelerating problem with toyota cars that came out, where there was a serious chance of actually being hurt as a result...
The solar panel on your Leaf doesn't charge the batteries that move your car
I have a 6.25 kw system on the roof of my house
BTW i did not get the Leaf with the solar panel on the roof; so your comments does not apply 2 fold.
It does not use 53 kWh to go 100miles. The Tesla model with 53 kWh battery can go over 200 miles.
In my Leaf I average 4.4 miles / kWh. I would be paying 12 cents / kW for electricity. 100 miles * 12 cents / kWh / 4.4 miles / kWh = $2.72
The Leaf's battery is 24 kWh which would cost $2.88 to fill up.
To fill up Tesla's 53kWh battery it'd be $6.36 which @ 200 miles would be 3 cents per mile or $3 to drive 100 miles.
I'd like to ask an honest question: Have you driven an electric car?
The instant torqe is amazing. When you floor the Leaf I am pushed back in my seat. When I'm driving at 65 mph and floor it, I can feel the acceleration - way more than enough for passing. Not even mentioning Tesla's Roadster/S which I've been in and I can tell you there's nothing more fun than flooring a car and feeling like you're on the Superman: Escape from Krypton ride at Six Flags!
I wanted to respond to this again on a different topic. If you havn't looked into solar panels before you may consider it. Federal rebate is 30% and your power company probably has a fund that'd help reduce it more. In Colorado with a fixed 12 cent power usage it'll take me about 12 years to repay the cost completely - though I also view this as a hedge against future rate increases which are not factored in.
With California's prices - i remember them, i lived in Orange County (Mission Viejo) a few years ago - the payoff time is much quicker. You could probably get a system to power your home with a payback of 6 years. I've heard cases in Arizona where they were able to break even in 3 years!
If you'd like information about solar I would be glad to share what I learned in my research. Just PM me. (this goes to anyone interested)
NoOther
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- May 14, 2008
- Messages
- 6,468
Yes, I have driven several electric cars. But my Nissan 370Z costs a third of the Tesla and uses far less of its energy to accelerate. Doing a lot of heavy acceleration puts a large strain on the battery, using up its juice much, much faster.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying I do not find certain electric cars enjoyable. But for the cost compared to what I already drive and the amount of features and enjoyment I get out of my current car, there just isn't anything comparable.
the 370Z's a very nice car and there are no ev cars in its class that offer it's comfort level - the Roadster/S still have a lot of catching up to do in that area.
Depending on the price, I am going to heavily consider Nissan's upcoming ESFlow (Infiniti's EV sportscar) - doesn't beat the 370's acceleration but it's closer and it appears to keep most of the comforts.
http://www.nissanusa.com/future-and-concept-vehicles/pop-esflow.html
NoOther
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- May 14, 2008
- Messages
- 6,468
Yeah I read up a lot on the Leaf when it came out, but it just doesn't fit any need for me at the moment. However, I am starting a new job soon with a lot more commute time, so some of these EV and Hybrid options are looking better and better... It is just hard for me to decide to pay for and maintain 2 cars.
That ESFlow looks pretty bad ass, but from everything I read, it may never be put into production. I have still been looking at all the press about the next Z model. It is supposed to come with a hybrid option and still maintain most of the current elements, with a much sleeker design similar to that of the ESFlow.
That won't do anything. Batteries lose charge even with no circuit attached to them whatsoever. And the parasitic drain isn't just for shits and giggles, it's to do things like keep the batteries healthy (such as protecting them from overheating if you leave it parked in the sun).
How do you get 0.2% of all units? The article mentioned 5 confirmed cases, but that doesn't mean the other cars aren't affected. It could very well be that those cars were never fully drained, which could take up to 11 weeks if previously fully charged, according to the article.
Monkey God
Mangina Full of Sand
- Joined
- May 7, 2007
- Messages
- 6,723
Parasitic drain will drain the batteries much faster than if there is no load on them. Do I really have to explain this? And batteries overheating in the sun? How the fuck does that happen if the car is sitting in idle storage?
Christ. Oh brave new world, that such uneducated people in it.
iromy
TheMadHatterXxX
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2004
- Messages
- 3,021
Why not just have it auto remote start if the battery reaches a certain minimum threshhold?
I have a 350z (APS single turbo installed among other mods) with a Viper 5901 remote start alarm system that I rarely drive, maybe 1 or 2 days a week during the warm months and almost never in the winter except maybe to get gas. The car will usually automatically remote start itself and run for 15 minutes when the battery reaches 12 volts, which is usually once every 5 days in the cold.
I have a 350z (APS single turbo installed among other mods) with a Viper 5901 remote start alarm system that I rarely drive, maybe 1 or 2 days a week during the warm months and almost never in the winter except maybe to get gas. The car will usually automatically remote start itself and run for 15 minutes when the battery reaches 12 volts, which is usually once every 5 days in the cold.
FndTheRver
Gawd
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2005
- Messages
- 626
There needs to be more infrastructure before EVs become really useful. I live in SF and have to park my car on the street. There are no power plugs in my neighborhood. Maybe some of the gas fuel taxes paid should go to installing charging stations in parking places.
Try not to get too angry.
Last I checked, summers can get pretty hot in some areas. And the inside of cars (and battery packs, in this case) can get pretty hot.
Leaving a car parked with the batteries @ 140°F and a high discharge level, wether that temperature is due to the batteries themselves heating up or due to the sun heating the car up, will kill the batteries in no time. Better to discharge them some and run the the battery cooling system, even if the car isn't plugged in.
A lithium ion battery kept at a high state of chage at 140°F will die in less then a year, used or not. The parasistic drain is probably the cooling system running.
The batteries can last longer if kept at a lower SOC when they're hot. Thus it's less nessisary to cool them once the charge level is down.
NoOther
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- May 14, 2008
- Messages
- 6,468
The article mentioned 5 unconfirmed cases which were by third or fourth party accounts. It also didn't mention the circumstances of any of those accounts either. There could have been a number of other things going on. Face it, the article is a sham, no real factual information anywhere in it to draw any rational conclusion.
Yet you're assuming that since the other cars may have never had up to 11 consecutive weeks of non-use that they wouldn't be affected by this alleged battery bug.
NoOther
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- May 14, 2008
- Messages
- 6,468
That is where your line of reasoning fails. I am not assuming anything. I am going purely off what the article says and showing that at best what they have found occurs in only a scattering of vehicles. At worst it is a gross misrepresentation of the company and defamation of its character. Mostly I am saying that there needs to be actual facts and real information before making any claim about what is really going on.
With the Model S now selling in much greater quantities than the Roadster, we'll see if more of these bricked battery stories emerge.
D
Deleted member 136890
Guest
Off topic but has anyone seen this? Soooo fucking cool.
Johnathan Goodwin can get 100 mpg out of a Lincoln Continental, cut emissions by 80%, and double the horsepower. Does the car business have the guts to follow him?
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/120/motorhead-messiah.html
Now thats frigging awsome. But take a look at this and you will see why we have such shitty MPG cars/trucks here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBnlXGvA1Wk&feature=player_embedded
Its our government that is bought and paid for by the oil industry. However ther main issue is that our gov will rape your wallet less.
How loud would the turbine engine be, is the big question? Would we all have to go deaf for this to happen?
Chrysler played with a turbine engine back in the '50s-60's. From what I have read, the major problems were the lack of on-demand power and noise. However, with electric operating in the background, it might be a worthwhile pairing. The noise problem is still an issue. Imagine a freeway full of mini-jet engines...