Tech Patents and Saving Lives

Master_shake_

Master_shake_

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unless of course you are a patent holder who thinks suing is a good way to keep your monopoly alive during a global pandemic.

i'm sure the jury will side with the patent holders. lol.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/17/...pany-threatens-sue-3d-print-valves-treatments

this is beyond scummy. on a scale that would make anyone cringe
 
I have no problem with patents and profits but when the mfg can't make enough valves even when the hospital is willing to pay, there needs to be a waiver process so the valves can be made without risk of IP law infringement and let the financial stuff be sorted out after the crisis is past.
 
DrLobotomy said:
Capitalism is a lot more important than humanity. Long live greed in the name of freedom.
Click to expand...

Someone needs an education in economics, specifically free market capitalism. This is likely a corrupt legal system put together by equally corrupt politicians. If they get away with it.
 
PeaKr said:
Someone needs an education in economics, specifically free market capitalism. This is likely a corrupt legal system put together by equally corrupt politicians. If they get away with it.
Click to expand...

In order for patents to work, you need a government to back them. In order for Capitalism to work, you need patents. in other words, you can't have a truly "free" market, the government has to get involved. and when the government is involved, profits from lucrative business can be used to encourage policy. Thus this is exactly "by design" in capitalism.

But it's the best system we have, so you can't complain too much.
 
Master_shake_ said:
unless of course you are a patent holder who thinks suing is a good way to keep your monopoly alive during a global pandemic.

i'm sure the jury will side with the patent holders. lol.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/17/...pany-threatens-sue-3d-print-valves-treatments

this is beyond scummy. on a scale that would make anyone cringe
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It's beyond stupid too: That's how you can lose a patent. Patents are something a government grants, and thus something they usually have the power to take away. In the US, the government can manufacture patented things without permission, and has done so in the past, and there's nothing patent holders can do. They can also seize or null patents for certian national security reasons. I imagine other countries have similar laws. So if this company ignores the guys doing this, well no big deal, they keep their patent and life goes on. But if they push hard, Italy or the EU might say "Ya, you don't have that patent anymore, is ours," or "These guys are now government contractors that can do this with immunity," or the like.
 
KazeoHin said:
In order for patents to work, you need a government to back them. In order for Capitalism to work, you need patents. in other words, you can't have a truly "free" market, the government has to get involved. and when the government is involved, profits from lucrative business can be used to encourage policy. Thus this is exactly "by design" in capitalism.

But it's the best system we have, so you can't complain too much.
Click to expand...

No system is perfect, although capitalism is closest, there has to be balance. This is not it. Giving a company the patent on a curved cell phone display or a basic valve destroys innovation/competition, one of the tenets of a free market. If a company develops a drug that cures cancer they deserve to get paid. If they think a government or insurance company will subsidize their profit then there is incentive to raise the price as high as possible and keep raising it over time, like college tuition in the USA. If a gov does not subsidize then the company can only charge what is affordable to the patient or they won't sell their product. In time another company will create a cheaper or better alternative(free market). Corrupt politicians create victims with horrid patents then vote for subsidies to get elected, a win win for the politicians and the companies they work for. Its the ancient 'money for votes' virus, the killer of democracies.
 
What good is a pandemic if you can't make any money screwing desperate people?

Also, I've read multiple times on this very forum, that education and healthcare shouldn't be free.
 
PeaKr said:
Someone needs an education in economics, specifically free market capitalism. This is likely a corrupt legal system put together by equally corrupt politicians. If they get away with it.
Click to expand...
Exactly, this isn't capitalism, this is corporatism... ergo, the dark cyberpunk future, etc.

KazeoHin said:
In order for patents to work, you need a government to back them. In order for Capitalism to work, you need patents. in other words, you can't have a truly "free" market, the government has to get involved. and when the government is involved, profits from lucrative business can be used to encourage policy. Thus this is exactly "by design" in capitalism.

But it's the best system we have, so you can't complain too much.
Click to expand...
Or, we could just have communism, where the government takes the $1 part for themselves, and then sells it for $11,000, thus putting that company out of business and imprisoning these two enemies of the State, who would dare steal government designs for personal gain.
So much better! :ROFLMAO:
 
Yea this won’t get anywhere, I can guarantee the government gives them a contract and supplies. They can threaten all they want, it’s not really a big deal. At least in these circumstances, if there was no pandemic sure it would be what it is.
 
Is there a major difference between the manufactures and 3D printed valves? Something about the company charging $11,000 for a valve seems way off of what it should actually cost.

At first look, this is worse than the government paying $640 for a toilet seat...
 
The company has the intellectual property for the values. It is beneficial for the company to profit from its IP. The decision of whether the risk of the patients life in a epidemic versus the violation of the patents is greater will be decided in the courts if they sue.
 
The company holding the patent MUST sue in order to KEEP their patent. If they allow others to freely manufacture the device, the patent can become null and void due to lack of any attempt to protect it. This is called patent abandonment.
Note that I am not saying that the patent holder actually WANTS to sue in this case, but they HAVE to, legally, to protect their patent. It's how patents and the patent system works.
Now, in this case, it is a life saving device that is patented, and normally (sans virus killing the world), this would be treated as a normal thing to protect intellectual property. But we aren't in a normal world. Exceptions may be granted. IANAPA. IANAL.

AceGoober said:
Is there a major difference between the manufactures and 3D printed valves?
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One has gone through many iterations of design and testing to perfect operation and pass all medical certifications/materials testing/operational testing/etc and the other has not. The 3D version could jam, for example, preventing the valve from opening and closing properly and kill someone due to too much/too little fluid flow.
It's a dangerous thing, but when you have no other choice except death, these 3D printed values are certainly better than nothing. Even if only 50% of patients are saved vs 10% saved without the 3D printed valves, it's a win. The real problem later will be the lawsuits for using 3D printed valves. The hospital could be shut down for using non-medical-approved devices.
 
Azrak said:
The company holding the patent MUST sue in order to KEEP their patent. If they allow others to freely manufacture the device, the patent can become null and void due to lack of any attempt to protect it. This is called patent abandonment.
Note that I am not saying that the patent holder actually WANTS to sue in this case, but they HAVE to, legally, to protect their patent. It's how patents and the patent system works.
Now, in this case, it is a life saving device that is patented, and normally (sans virus killing the world), this would be treated as a normal thing to protect intellectual property. But we aren't in a normal world. Exceptions may be granted. IANAPA. IANAL.


One has gone through many iterations of design and testing to perfect operation and pass all medical certifications/materials testing/operational testing/etc and the other has not. The 3D version could jam, for example, preventing the valve from opening and closing properly and kill someone due to too much/too little fluid flow.
It's a dangerous thing, but when you have no other choice except death, these 3D printed values are certainly better than nothing. Even if only 50% of patients are saved vs 10% saved without the 3D printed valves, it's a win. The real problem later will be the lawsuits for using 3D printed valves. The hospital could be shut down for using non-medical-approved devices.
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Nah literally no one will go after these guys/hospital/doctors it would be a blood bath in the court of public opinion and honestly I would argue open the company to lawsuit by people families of ones that might die if they shut down the 3d valve.
 
DrLobotomy said:
Capitalism is a lot more important than humanity. Long live greed in the name of freedom.
Click to expand...
At least capitalism invented the device. socialism would not reward any resource manager for supporting inventing the device and the resources would go elsewhere for need today. You have a situation you feel morally more comfortable although effectively worse for all the people involved.
 
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Red Falcon said:
Exactly, this isn't capitalism, this is corporatism... ergo, the dark cyberpunk future, etc.


Or, we could just have communism, where the government takes the $1 part for themselves, and then sells it for $11,000, thus putting that company out of business and imprisoning these two enemies of the State, who would dare steal government designs for personal gain.
So much better! :ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...
Without the patent system expending resources for invention would be foolish and wouldn't happen. I'd wait for the other dumb schlep to do it and make it while pocketing the money I saved on research.
 
Jagger100 said:
Without the patent system expending resources for invention would be foolish and wouldn't happen. I'd wait for the other dumb schlep to do it and make it while pocketing the money I saved on research.
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Not true at all thiers still big money to be made by being first to market. Or give them like a 5 year patent...we need to do something in the drug side by eaither dictating how much over cost a company can sell drugs for or letting more companies make them.
 
Azrak said:
The company holding the patent MUST sue in order to KEEP their patent. If they allow others to freely manufacture the device, the patent can become null and void due to lack of any attempt to protect it.
Click to expand...

That's true for trademarks, but not patents. You can let patents slide until it's really inconvenient for the infringer, and then sue them. That's why startups get sued for patents when they IPO or were acquired, and not when they're just spending VC money (unless the patent is near expiration...)

You could also negotiate a low cost license if you needed it to be licensed for whatever reason, but didn't want to be a jerk.
 
This is just poor reporting on the part of Business Insider. In an update when the Verge did their own interview they found it was potentially a big ado about nothing-- the BI article even got the price of the parts wrong. No big evil company here trying to sue the pants off poor innocent volunteers just trying to save lives. See the following statements from the verge article:

Statement from the volunteer who actually printed the adapters:
Romaioli denied they’d received threats. He said the company had simply refused to release design files, forcing them to reverse-engineer the valve. “I talked to an operator who told me he couldn’t give me the files, but after that we didn’t receive anything from the original company — so I can assure you we didn’t get any threat,” he said. “They said they couldn’t give us the file because it’s company property, but that’s all.”
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Statement from company:
Just to confirm that recent reports from Italy are totally incorrect, we were contacted at the end of last week for manufacturing details of a valve accessory but could not supply these due to medical manufacturing regulations, we have categorically not threatened to sue anyone involved. The valve is an accessory supplied as part of a CPAP Hood system which alone costs a few euros. Our Italian company has been doing their utmost to supply the hospitals at this time and have been supplying these free of charge in many cases to use with the CPAP Hoods. It is very disappointing that in the current climate this incorrect information is circulating, our focus as a company is to be able to supply the hospitals that require these and many other vital products and we are making every effort to ensure we can do so.
Click to expand...
 
Jagger100 said:
At least capitalism invented the device. socialism would not reward any resource manager for supporting inventing the device and the resources would go elsewhere for need today. You have a situation you feel morally more comfortable although effectively worse for all the people involved.
Click to expand...
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a lot of these medical equipment partially funded by governments? The other half is private companies but private are the ones who get to benefit from the profits.
 
Now this is an example of a patent troll. A shell company bought the rights to two patents from Theranos (the scam blood testing company that went bankrupt) and was using it to sue to force a company making COVID-19 tests to stop making them unless they paid up. Companies that don't make products and never intend to make them, buy patents that may or may not actually work from bankrupt companies, then try to leech off of the work of people that actually make products are scum.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...covid-19-testing-using-theranos-patents.shtml
https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/18/...anos-coronavirus-covid-lawsuit-patent-testing
 
Good to know with most of the country being told to not interact with others except for essential needs that the ability to file a civil lawsuit is considered essential
 
DrLobotomy said:
Capitalism is a lot more important than humanity. Long live greed in the name of freedom.
Click to expand...

Patents are anti-capitalist. Using government-backed violence to enforce a monopoly? No.

People keep using these words, "capitalism" and "socialism" and they don't know what they mean.

This is a PR mistake. They should have instead said "we can't support aftermarket or homemade parts, these are not toys, this is life-saving medical equipment," and instead instate some kind of low- or no-cost replacement policy tied to basically an extended warranty. Say "use them as long as you need to but know that without our extended warranty we can't work on them down the line."

That's it. Enough people will eventually buy the maintenance package and you'll at least make some money in the face of hospitals 3D printing all their replacement parts.

We're going to see a lot more of this as non-commercial additive manufacturing gets closer to the quality level of commercial manufacturing.
 
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