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Taking the plunge

S

Silent Assasin

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Messages
1,120
So, lately I've been thinking about taking the plunge and dropping hte money for a water cooling system, but I have several questions.

1. First off, does water cooling really help that much with overheating problems and drop the temp of anything being cooled that much?
2. Does the cooling system drop the total temp of the system at all? I pretty much leave my computer running all the time and I've noticed that the summer heat really does effect my cpu/gpu temps. Durring the winter, when I can actually control the tempeture in my room, the cpu temp drops to an average of 40degreeC and right now it's running at about 46degreeC. I noticed it jumped to 54 after several hours of bf2 though.... But anyway, durring the summer, my computer really makes my entire room extremely hot.... Would the water pump create just as much heat as my current fans pump out? I've noticed that most pumps/resoviors have 2 120mm fans on them, that's startin to tell me that using water cooling isn't going to help me with room temps.
3. I've also heard that water cooling systems reduce noise from less fans running, but yet again, the 2 120mm beg me to differ.... The noise isn't my top concerne though.

My current setup has 5x 80mm fans, stock A64 HS fan(the big noisemaker at >4000rpm), and my stock fan on my x800Pro.

What I'm looking at is a complete cooling system from Koolance which comes out to a total of about $405. That includes pump/resivoir, gpu cooler, and cpu cooler.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16835127006
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16811155986
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16835127002

Does this price seem fair for a cooling system? And would I be sastified as far as my questions go?
 
you can get a much better cooling system for $400 if you configure it yourself, that will shred the koolance setup
 
but how would I go about building my own cooling system, I'm not quite too sure if I trust myself building a system to let liquid flow through my system..... I really don't want to blow out a $200+ part....
 
Silent Assasin said:
or WTF???? I just found this......

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1020396&Tab=1&NoMapp=0

would this still do the job?
Click to expand...

HELL NO! Here, look at these:

Swiftech H20 rev 3 $199.99
Asetek Waterchill Kit $219.99
Maze4 Power Kit $200.00
GPU Block to Add to Maze4 Power Kit $44.95

Now, to clear up misconceptions you have about watercooling, I suggest reading the stickies up top. They are chock full of good information. It's how I learned how to do it, and asking questions of course.

Watercooling will drop temps across the board, and yes, case temps, unless you've got some unwieldly wire jungle going on in there. 120mm fans are necessary on the radiators to keep cold air flowing through the radiator which, in turn, cools the water. Most people run these fans on a fan controller, so (like me), you can barely hear the noise from the fans, and if you choose quiet fans (i.e. Panaflo), all the better. I hear my hard drives and my PSU, that's about it. I idle (with a dual heatercore) at 30C and load up at 38C, with a Radeon X800XT in the loop as well.

Any of those kits I mentioned would do more than fine. Also, never buy any watercooling products from Newegg. They overcharge on that stuff. Oh, and........if you buy that Kingwin POS, you will have to kick your own ass.

GOOD LUCK!
 
research!!!!

Take your time troll these forums, listen and learn all you can

Hell I been working on my sys for over 6 months including time to research and saving up cash and its still not complete.
 
Silent Assasin said:
but how would I go about building my own cooling system, I'm not quite too sure if I trust myself building a system to let liquid flow through my system..... I really don't want to blow out a $200+ part....
Click to expand...

I felt the same way going into water cooling. Its really not complicated at all. The only advise I can give is take your time, double check your work, and read/research this forum. There is a lot of valuble info here on parts, setups, etc...

btw I think the danger den setup would perform better than the koolance.
 
For my first (nervous) WC, I just bought a Koolance PC3-725 case from frozencpu, which has the radiator, fans, reservoir, and pumps pre-mounted to the (lian li) case - when you get it there's just this nice looking exos-like thing bolted to the top of the case and internally two long 3/8" ID hoses hanging down. This saved a big nervousness for me of coming up with a reasonably elegant way to mount all that stuff in my existing case. Note however that this bit of georgousness costs - the case was US499, and you still have to buy (and install) waterblocks at ~ USD50 each.

But once I got the blocks and started installing - both to compression fittings (koolance cpu block) and barbs (dangerden chipset block and polarflo vga block) it became "Well, this certainly isn't any big deal". The only point left for nervousness was the usual (for me) - mounting coolers to cpus, gpus, and chipsets - making sure they are on correctly and that I got little, but enough, thermal compound on them.

A warning on this particular solution: with the PC3-725SL, which is a Lian Li V1000 with (basically) an Exos inserted into the top (an Exos using 3/8" ID tubing that is) you lose the use of the last PCI slot. This Lian Li opens on the right side instead of the left, and the motherboard is "upside down" so that the i/o pane is at the bottom and the PCI slots are at the top; because this isn't a server case (it is a normal mid-tower) the radiator and fittings for the cooler block that top-most PCI slot.

Otherwise I love this puppy - looks georgous and the tubing layout is extremely clean and easy. This weekend - when I'm not reading the new Harry Potter book - will be replacing the 6600GT with a 7800GTX (bit of nervousness there - this card cost more than the case) and I also am going to mount a "free standing" 120mm fan at the bottom-back of the drive cages because I'm not thrilled that my airflow in the "top compartment" (look up this case to see what I mean) is only from the radiator+2-120mm-fan exhaust at the top, a 120mm rear exhaust, and a million little holes in the case for passive "breathin" - no active fan blowing inward.

Note also that I ended up doing a minor mod to this georgous case (I love Lian Li). The case is split into three "compartments": the top is the MB, 120mm exhaust, and 5 1/4" drive cages; at the bottom of this is a solid aluminum divider with a hole for the 24-pin MB power cable; the bottom of the case (normally) has two sections: 3 1/2" bays for drives (with a 120mm fan blowing over them and exiting out the millions of little holes in the bottom of the case), then a solid aluminum divider with a hole for the power cables to pass through, and then a fairly little compartment for the psu to suck air through the millions of little holes in the case bottom (ie mount the psu upside down) and exhaust out the back. But when I stuck in my PC power & cooling 510 SLI psu, which has an exhaust fan on the rear and wire mesh on the front, the wire mess intake was about an inch from this aluminum divider. So I removed the rivets and popped out the aluminum divider - so now the whole bottom of the case is one long compartment, with the 120mm intake blowing over the hard drives, then leftover power cables making a rat's nest <g>, followed by the psu sucking in through mesh and exhausting with a fan.

Finally all this boucoup buck setup (including the 4200+ amd64 x2) is not for overclocking and pushing some envelope - I was a senior electronics tech in silicon valley for years and I'm not real big on pushing chips too much out of spec. However when I turn down the 120mm fans and the case's 2 120mm radiator fans, this puppy is silent. Which is a huge deal when I'm watching movies on my 92" screen :cool:

End result: for me the only questionable part was trying to cut holes in cases and mount largish hardware in it (radiators with shrouds and fans, reservoir, pump); the actual hooking up of tubes and running lots of gallons per minute of a liquid conductor amongst my nastily expensive electronics end up not being a big deal at all. When I first got the case and installed a loop for the cpu (amd 64 3500+), vga (6600gt) and chipset (on msi sli motherboard) I first loosely mounted the mb and vga to measure hose lengths with the blocks actually in their end location (held there by hand); then removed the electronics so that the case was empty except for a completely hooked up loop, plugged in a psu that was sitting externally to the case (and above any possible flood plain <g>), filled her up, and leak tested her for 24 hours. When that was fine I unhooked the psu, installed the electronics and mounted the waterblocks, and ran fine for a month or two.

My latest install was to replace the mb with an asus sli deluxe, the psu with the PC Power & Cooling, the cpu with an amd64 x2 4200+. This time I just swapped the electronics, mounted the waterblocks (had to drain the system because I swapped chipset wb with the dangerden one specifically made for this mb), and with the system fully connected (but not plugged into the wall) I again used the external psu to power up the cooler and leak test; my thinking was that if I did something wrong, it would just get stuff wet and I would rinse and thoroughly dry them if so. However, leak test was fine, so I just had to unplug the external supply, plug the unit into the internal supply molex, and power her up.

End result for me was:

1. Compression fittings are a wonderful thing.

2. Barbs are plenty easy to work with; I use those plastic hose clamps and they work like a champ.

3. If you buy stuff that doesn't fit correctly you will get nervous - and rightfully so. So when buying parts, make sure of the hose inner and outer diameters, the block fitting sizes, and clamp sizes. I now have a cpu water block with 1/4" ID fittings that makes a wonderful conversation piece and will likely spend the rest of it's days dry as a bone.

4. Radiators and their fittings (shrouds, fans, and barbs), the pump, and the reservoir (if you use one - I prefer it) can be big and tough to place/mount in a case; before buying the parts note their dimensions and plan exactly where you will mount them. For me this ended up causing me to just buy a pre-modded case that already had them mounted. Note that measuring here also definitely takes into account how the hoses will run, as you have certain radii for tube bending to worry about (I'm also not a fan of installing elbow joints).

5. If you have particular goals in mind (and I hope you do if you are going to WC your pc) also take them into account. For me the primary goals were a mixture of good temps with low noise. This was a factor in which pre-modded case I bought; the Exos 2 - and this case basically has one inserted onto the top - has had excellent reviews for both cooling and noise. However I didn't want the unit just sitting on top of my CM Stacker (my older comp), and I have to say I wasn't thrilled with the 1/4" ID tubing it comes with (although it DOES get excellent cooling reviews).
 
Silent Assasin said:
1. First off, does water cooling really help that much with overheating problems and drop the temp of anything being cooled that much?

Yes, with the right set up you should notice temps drop as much as 10 - 20 c

2. Does the cooling system drop the total temp of the system at all? I've noticed that most pumps/resoviors have 2 120mm fans on them, that's startin to tell me that using water cooling isn't going to help me with room temps.

When you remove a heat source adding to air temps in the case by water cooling it, the amount of hot air in the case will drop. 120mm fans a) move a lot more air than 80mm. b) are alot quiter due to the fact then don't need to spin as fast to move the air.

3. I've also heard that water cooling systems reduce noise from less fans running, but yet again, the 2 120mm beg me to differ.... The noise isn't my top concerne though.

120mm fans are much quiter than 80mm

My current setup has 5x 80mm fans, stock A64 HS fan(the big noisemaker at >4000rpm), and my stock fan on my x800Pro.
Click to expand...

Water cooling is the best way to:
- reduce noise
- decrease case temps
- protect your components from over heating.
 
Would you mind changing your font color from blue to something else as it is hard to read, thanks :)
 
so I've read somewhere else that I have to check how much the pump can disperse. Someone else told me that a pump that's too small with let your parts burn out. If I wanted to cool my A64 3500+, x800Pro, and potentialy hardrive, would I have to worry at all with http://www.dangerdenstore.com/product.php?productid=36&cat=23&page=1.

And I definatly plan on reusing this pump if possible in a new system a year from now if they don't make some huge discover with water cooling. And the way that cooling systems as run lately, the fact that people can water cool was the biggest leap, but other then that it doesn't seem like to me that there has been major advances in pumps and whatnot as there have been with cpus and vid cards.....
 
That pump is more than enough. You do NOT have to watercool the hard drive either, IMHO. I think it's a complete waste of time, I think. Especially if you are watercooling for the first time, try to do it with as few variables as possible. CPU and VGA is all I would do.
 
Don't get that pump, there is a newer version out called the D5, which is an all around better pump statistically and is also much quieter than the D4 (which was known to be whiny to many). You really need to do more research about water cooling in general, then come back here asking for comments about what components you have found that you want to use. Overclcokers.com has tons of water cooling articles you should read, as well as lots of component reviews. Procooling.com is also a great source, but a lot of the articles on their site will be over your head until you do some more research yourself.
For deciding whether to buy a kit or diy (which I very strongly suggest) read this.
 
ikellensbro said:
Don't get that pump, there is a newer version out called the D5, which is an all around better pump statistically and is also much quieter than the D4 (which was known to be whiny to many). You really need to do more research about water cooling in general, then come back here asking for comments about what components you have found that you want to use. Overclcokers.com has tons of water cooling articles you should read, as well as lots of component reviews. Procooling.com is also a great source, but a lot of the articles on their site will be over your head until you do some more research yourself.
For deciding whether to buy a kit or diy (which I very strongly suggest) read this.
Click to expand...

Ya, this thread really was kind of rushed.... Last weekend I went to an 2 night lan party at a friends house, and having this week be the hottest days of the year, It got rather hot in the room with 15 other air cooled computers. When I bought the case this winter, I knew it didn't have that great of an airflow, but I really liked the style, layout, and price of it. At the time I was thinking about water cooling sometime in the future, but didn't know when. It wasn't untill just recently that I've been looking for water cooling stuff because of my overheating problems. I have never overclocked any of the parts, but I think it has something to do with the case and the general tempeture of the room. Last week at the lan party, I couldn't even run bf2 for more then an hour on high graphics without the BSOD.... And on reboot, I was getting some outrages temps....

So the reason that I came here was hoping that some of you guys would help stear me in the right direction in what parts they have had good luck with and where to even start looking. Being a collage student, I really don't have a whole lot of money. But I'd rather drop an extra $200 bucks that I can reuse in future systems, than burn out a $280 vid card and $200 cpu that I most likely replace in a year or so....
 
A TDX uses only 1 inlet/outlet for easier tubing routing, while the RDX uses 1 inlet/2 outlets to give slightly better cooling, but you have to deal with extra connections & tubing going into a Y to connect to the outlets. Here's a real quick setup for just over $200:

Swiftech 6002: $45
DD Maze4 gpu: $45
Laing D5 (MCP655 @Swiftech): $75
BIP2 (or BIX2 if you don't mind louder fans, BIP are for quiter fans) from DD: $36 + fans
10' Clearflex60 or 10' of 7/16"id-5/8"od (part #5233K44 @mcmaster.com): $10
Distilled water, hose clamps, etc.: $20, can add up

That gives you a top notch loop using components that should last you a while, and will give you excellent perfromance.
 
ya, as i was looking around at more parts on frozencpu.com i realized the dif between rbx/tdx but for some reason on dangerdenstore.com the pic they have up there only looks like a 2 plug, but then again doesn't look like the shape of a tdx, so that's what confused me. I'm starting to lean towards the DD RBX for socket 939. It just makes more sense to me for an extra 3 bucks.

I've also decided that Ehiem would be the best pump for me. From everything that I've read and seen, they seem like a better reliable pump. The Ehiem 1250 to be specific.

For everything to work, I might be goin all out custom as well. I've been looking at my case configuration and my case is a smaller sized case and when I've been trying to fit visual parts inside, I think it would look like crap and really mess things up. So what I've been thinking about is to pretty much add a modded box on top of the case. Inside this box I will put the rad, res (if needed), and pump in there. Pretty much like a custom made "kit" that you can buy. The box will be made out of sheet steal, same as the case and painted accordingly. It will be as wide as the case, just tall enough to fit the rad in (so that the 120mm fan will be blowing out the back) and just about half the length as my case. My plan is to have the rad in the back with a 120mm fan blowing out the back, the pump sitting in front of that, and the res running along the side of the pump and rad. I will then cut two holes in the top of the case and drop down the intake/output hoses throught he top between my psu and dvd drives. And from there have it be pretty much the same. Just one question though, would I even need to have a resivoir with this setup. It seems to be that many people leave that part out with any system now. Is there any advantage to having a res verse not having one?

And one more question about water cooling in general. Should I split my tubes and have one tube to every component (pump-to splitter-to cpu and gpu on different line-to splitter-and back), or just put it in a chain (straight from pump to cpu-to gpu-then back)? The pros to a chain i can see are less tubes and confusion, but cons are that I will be sending already heated water to my gpu. What do you think would be best, or the only way to go?
 
No splitting. Everything in series Pump > RAD > CPU > GPU > RES > back to PUMP.

Keep in mind too, that everything on FrozenCPU is WAY overpriced. WAY overpriced.

If you are going to use a double radiator (one that accepts two 120mm fans on each side) or double heatercore (same thing, cheaper) you are not going to need to worry about temps, I assure you. Two medium-speed Panaflo M1A's at about 7 volts (nice and quiet) attached to a shroud and mounted so the fans are pulling air through the rad is an ideal setup.
 
The D5/TDX combo will save you a lot, I highly reccomend it.

water cooling:
. CPU Block and Pump:
. 1 Danger Den Copper TDX and DD12V-D5 combo $108.75
. GPU Block:
. 1 Low Profile MAZE4 GPU block $46.45
. 2 8 BGA Copper RAMsinks $9.95
. Radiator:
. 1 Black Ice Pro II $35.99
. 2 Panaflo 120mm M1A $9.75 x2 = $19.50
. alternative:
. 1 Double Heater Core $34.99
. 2 Panaflo High Speed 120mm $12.95 x2 = $25.90
. Reservoir:
. 1 DD single 5 1/4" bay - plastic $17.95
. alternative:
. 1 DD sinlge 5 1/4" bay - clear $29.95
. Tubing:
. 1 Tygon 3/8" ID 10 ft x $2.35 = $23.50
. Fittings:
. 1 1/4 NPT Fittings for 3/8" ID tubing $1.00 x 4 = $4.00
. 2 Polypropylene "Elbow" 2 x $1.75 = $3.50
. Clamps:
. 1 Metal Worm Clamps - hardware store $?
. Other:
. 1 MCT -40 water additive $0.00 (gift w/ >$100 order)
. 2 6" Velcro $2.49 x 2 = $4.98

I got the velcro to fix my pump in place and the elbows/fittings to be safe.
watercooling total: $274.57
(You need to buy worm clamps at an autoparts store.)

My idea is more than the other one because of a reservoir, tygon tubing, and the fact that fan prices are included. ($75+45+45=$110+45+10 (ramsinks), so the main components cost the same.)
 
ok, so I've been reading an wathcin tons of things about WC. I just have another question now though, and it has rised to probably my number one concern. So now what about condinsation? Is that something that I have to worry about, condinsation buildup on the outside of my blocks and/or tubes? It just doesn't feel right running water through 2k worth of electronic parts.... I think I'd be using that MCT-40 solution stuff too....
 
no, condensation only appears when your temps go BELOW ambient. This will NEVER happen in a conventional water loop.

There are several different ways to achieve sub-ambient temps: TECs/Peltiers, VapoChill/Water Chillers, LN2 (a little extreme, only for quick benchmarks), and perhaps some others, or other ways of chilling your water. :p

Someone with more knowledge can add to my list, or you can check out the "extreme cooling" subforum. That place is all about the subambient temps.
 
Unless you're going to make a chiller with your loop (use pahse change/dry ice/plain ice cubes/etc. to chill the alcohol/other liquid in your loop that won't frreeze), you only have to worry about mounting your components correctly & making sure all your connections are leak proof.

If you buy $100+ at DD you get a free bottle of MCT-40, otherwise you don't need to get any. As long as you take your time, put your tubing on hose barbs all the way, use worm drive hose clamps screwed tight, and run a leak test, you shouldn't have to worry about any leaks.
 
ok ya, that's kind of what I was thinking. But the reason I asked is because I was talking with a friend of mine who is an engineer. He said that a couple years ago, they tried to water cool a cabinet of network servers and they had huge problems with condinsation. And he got me all worried about that, but then he didn't realize that I would be using a radiator outside of the case. I didn't show him that part until today, and he was like, "oh..... I guess you don't need to worry about that too much then....." lol.... But anyway, I think i'm gunna buy the parts some time this week. And my monitor just crapped out on my, so it's a trip back to best buy.....

DD RBX CPU block for A64 - $52.95
DD Acetal MAZE4 GPU block - $46.45
Black Ice Extreme Rad - $44.99
Eheim 1250 Pump - $59.00
Clearflex 60 Tubing - $1.12 x 10ft. = $11.20
MCT-40 - Free
Total + Home delivery shipping = $227.20

I still need to pick up a Y splitter for the cpu block and some clamps. So add like another 10 bucks. And another 20 for the resivoir which I haven't picked out yet.... I'm looking for something that will fit nicely in my modded box i'm going to build I think.....

Oh ya, I'm also using all 1/2" tubing unless you guys would suggest otherwise.....
 
Don't get the RBX & 1250, get the TDX & D% combo under special deals for $109. Better performance, less connections for a possible leak, and less $$$ :D
 
Silent Assasin said:
DD RBX CPU block for A64 - $52.95
DD Acetal MAZE4 GPU block - $46.45
Black Ice Extreme Rad - $44.99
Eheim 1250 Pump - $59.00
Clearflex 60 Tubing - $1.12 x 10ft. = $11.20
MCT-40 - Free
Total + Home delivery shipping = $227.20

I still need to pick up a Y splitter for the cpu block and some clamps. So add like another 10 bucks. And another 20 for the resivoir which I haven't picked out yet.... I'm looking for something that will fit nicely in my modded box i'm going to build I think.....

Oh ya, I'm also using all 1/2" tubing unless you guys would suggest otherwise.....
Click to expand...

DD has both reservoirs and Y-splitters. But I would suggest the DD D5 + TDX combo (see Special Deals section of DD) for $108. Will save you a little money while getting you a MUCH more powerful pump. And the BIX is too expensive. Get either a Black Ice Pro or a single heatercore (both available on DD). What fan will you be getting? If it has 80 or more cfm, then I'd get the heatercore. If less, get the BIP.

A simple plastic res from DD should suffice I would think. $18 for a plastic one and $30 for a clear one (for the single 5 1/4 bay ones at least).

The plastic clamps that DD has won’t do well in watercooling. Be sure to pick up some metal worm clamps from a hardware store.

If you have some more money, this Thermochill PA160 will give you great performance (almost on par with a dual 120mm rad) while only taking up the room of a 120mm rad.

Tygon tubing is a good investment imho. It doesn’t cloud up for MUCH longer than Clearflex. And it will resist kinking better. All for only $10 more. No reason not to buy Tygon as I see it.

I would also get 3/8” ID tubing. 1/2” has been shown to be overkill, not giving any performance increase over 3/8” tubing. And who wants 3/4” OD tubing anyways? 3/8” is a smaller, easier to set up option that gives the same performance and looks better while doing it.

Good choices on the water additive and GPU block.

Anything else?
 
well the main reason I wanted to go with the 1250 was because DD was currently out of the D5 pump, which also leads to the reasoning of not getting the TDX.... When I was picking and choosing parts, I was looking for pretty much purchasing this weak, but today I brought my car into the shop, and lets just say that I've got some more time to think about this. This whole time that I've been thinking about water cooling my computer, I should of been thinking about my current water cooling in my Jeep. I could either pay $100 bucks for new rad and install myself, or pay $400 and let them buy rad and install..... Then the thing for the air conditioner will most likely need to be replaced after the new rad, so there goes another $150 in which I can't do.... Bah, lifes a bitch sometimes.

Anyway, I think I might be looking deeper into some parts, and try to wait for that D5 pump to restock, now that I have the time and not the money...
 
PS, anyone know how long these "Limited time offers" will last, like the TDX + D5, and free MCT-40? It seems that the mct-40 has been up there for a while without an add, but there happens to be an add now saying limited time only....
 
And so how would you suggest setting up my rad.... From the pictures gallery, it seems like many of you put 120mm fans on both sides of the rad.... If I get a large rad that supports 2x120mm fans per side, should I only use 2 fans? And which way should the fans be blowing, pumping air in or blowing out away from the rad?
 
blowing air out.

only using two fans is the preffered method. 4 fans on a 2x120mm rad is called push/pull and greatly increases the noise for a bit of performance gain.

The D5 is supposed to get back in stock this week. It pays to wait!
 
Nope, unless you're going phase change or peltiers you don't need insulation, because your temps will never go below ambient, so no possible condensation.
 
Silent Assasin said:
And so how would you suggest setting up my rad.... From the pictures gallery, it seems like many of you put 120mm fans on both sides of the rad.... If I get a large rad that supports 2x120mm fans per side, should I only use 2 fans? And which way should the fans be blowing, pumping air in or blowing out away from the rad?
Click to expand...

Two fans on the back of the rad, "pulling" the air through the rad. Don't forget your shroud!
 
Also,

I don't know if you read the front page today, but Swiftech just came out with a heavy duty kit that includes the new Storm block.

http://www.swiftnets.com/products/h20-apex.asp

H20-APEX.gif


Add a Danger Den MAZE-4 GPU block to that, and you are ALL SET. :D
 
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