SystemCooling + AC

[Erasmus354]

ummm, from what i've seen TN has "preached" that the AC rads are not the best, so she uses BI ones, and the pumps can be OC'ed while the one in the review was not, and she is running several different loops in order to limit flow loss due to too many componets in one loop.

Care to rephrase?

He was remarking to the fact that recently TN has been bashing other companies and remarking that AquaComputer is better than them because it provides "complete watercooling systems" which obviously isn't the case.

 

[el rolio]

Actually, what the whole review shows is what E354 and the others have said all along: The block is a good block, one of the best out there. But when you put it with 1/4" tubing, a weak pump, and an outdated tube-style radiator, well, it dont matter how good the block is, the loop is gonna suck. The watercooling "system" that TN has preached about AC providing has been blown out of the water, not the block.

well put

 

[RotorHead]

So chances are good, if this block was paired with a better pump and a bigger rad, it would perform at a higher level.

 

[DFI Daishi]

So chances are good, if this block was paired with a better pump and a bigger rad, it would perform at a higher level.

yep.

even setting the A-C pump to it's highest output and using a decent rad would probably shave a few degrees off.

as it sits, i think the review did not do full justice to the A-C kit, and that it should at least give the other kits a good race. however, if the review is supposed to be about complete A-C kits, then it should be using ALL A-C hardware, for good or ill. if there is another review using a larger rad in the A-C kit, i think that it should be compared to kits with similarly sized rads.

as for the noise issue......you can't really measure lower than around 35 db without a special sound proof test chamber.

 

[BellaCroix]

I said I'd stick with my Innova kit regardless of the outcome of the review and I stand by that. I'm still a fan and it still works perfectly fine for me.

Debating a couple degrees in overclock to me is pointless, just my opinion. My house is several degrees cooler in the winter than it is in the summer months. Am I supposed to lower my overclock because it's summer? Of course not. No matter what kind of watercooling you're using you're not getting better than ambient. That means that if I'm worried about 2 degrees variance in temperatures because I've found the abolute sweet spot where one more meg OC and my chip fries, in the summer when my radiator (AC, Innova, BIP, or a friggin Corvette rad) is less effective, I have no choice but to lower my OC.

So who the hell cares? If I'm looking to squeeze every last drop of power out of my core I'm not watercooling. Let's face it... when you get into extreme OC'ing, you're talking about extreme cooling.

I run a moderate OC on my systems. Each of them have performed admirably and were rock solid using large bore and stayed the same when I switched to small bore. Noone in their right mind would ever think that small bore would be exactly the same as large bore, it's clear that large bore should (and does) have the potential to provide marginally better cooling particularly in extreme rigs. That having been said, small bore remains an valid option and provides respectable, quiet cooling for those with moderate overclocks or builds that do not incorporate 3+ processors.

Some prefer the looks of small bore kit (myself included). We get respectable results using that kit. We pull overclocks we are happy with. Our machines are stable. Where the hell did this whole large bore vs small bore debate come from anyway? Who really cares one way or the other?

 

[DFI Daishi]

I said I'd stick with my Innova kit regardless of the outcome of the review and I stand by that. I'm still a fan and it still works perfectly fine for me.

that's fine. you're an innovatech fan. i'm a performance fan. i hope that everyone knows what "fan" is short for. it's pretty unlikely that we're ever going to see eye to eye on this.

Debating a couple degrees in overclock to me is pointless, just my opinion. My house is several degrees cooler in the winter than it is in the summer months. Am I supposed to lower my overclock because it's summer? Of course not. No matter what kind of watercooling you're using you're not getting better than ambient. That means that if I'm worried about 2 degrees variance in temperatures because I've found the abolute sweet spot where one more meg OC and my chip fries, in the summer when my radiator (AC, Innova, BIP, or a friggin Corvette rad) is less effective, I have no choice but to lower my OC.

i know that i back off my OC during the summer. why don't you? you don't care about the extra MHz? fine. you're not a performance enthusiast. that's your choice. a few degrees make some difference, if you always ride the bleeding edge of what is stable. the extra cooling makes a difference for some of us.

So who the hell cares? If I'm looking to squeeze every last drop of power out of my core I'm not watercooling. Let's face it... when you get into extreme OC'ing, you're talking about extreme cooling.

well, i for one care. both watercooling and extreme cooling exist to push the envelope. what you go with depends on your budget, but you get what you can afford and you run it as high as it will go. if you're not pushing it, then why the hell aren't you going with high end air cooling and running top-flight processors moderately undervolted to get high performance at near-silent noise levels?

I run a moderate OC on my systems. Each of them have performed admirably and were rock solid using large bore and stayed the same when I switched to small bore. Noone in their right mind would ever think that small bore would be exactly the same as large bore, it's clear that large bore should (and does) have the potential to provide marginally better cooling particularly in extreme rigs. That having been said, small bore remains an valid option and provides respectable, quiet cooling for those with moderate overclocks or builds that do not incorporate 3+ processors.

you know....i agree that no one in their right mind WOULD make that claim.....but that's just the claim that two prominent small-bore advocates make on a regular basis: that it makes no difference at all. does it make a BIG difference? no. does watercooling make a BIG difference as compared to aftermarket air? no. so if the difference from air to small bore is small......and the difference from small bore to big bore is small.........where do you draw the line? again, are you trying to push the limits, or aren't you?

Some prefer the looks of small bore kit (myself included). We get respectable results using that kit. We pull overclocks we are happy with. Our machines are stable. Where the hell did this whole large bore vs small bore debate come from anyway? Who really cares one way or the other?

where does it come from? "we are the large bore enthusiasts. we advocate performance and pushing the limits." vs. "we are the small bore enthusiasts. we advocate pragmatism and good looks." might be one place to look.

incidently, i ALSO feel nothing but contempt for the fool in a cavalier with tonnes of kit who CAN'T pass me on the highway doing 160 Km/h, when i'm driving a largely stock and totally plain looking sentra. i don't care if it looks fast, if it can't deliver they're just useless add-ons.

 

[Punx_Clever]

ummm, from what i've seen TN has "preached" that the AC rads are not the best, so she uses BI ones, and the pumps can be OC'ed while the one in the review was not, and she is running several different loops in order to limit flow loss due to too many componets in one loop.

Care to rephrase?

Nope, don't care to rephrase AT ALL. I remember her distinctly saying that AC provids a complete system. This is not the case as shown by these tests. I know she uses BI rads, but when you are posting on a forum, its all about wording, cause thats all there is! Also, how could you split up a loop more than having only one block?

I'm with most of the forum on this though: the pump should have been run at full capacity. Thats the only real flaw I see in this. They reviewed what was sent, and compared it to other products of a simular configuration (IE, one 120mm fan).

 

[phide]

Glad to hear it is growing on you! I look forward to seeing the first person to adapt the block to run on a true 1/2" loop. Of course, it won't be me

Pretty sure it won't happen, but one never knows. The next block that touches my CPU will be one of my own creation.

Anyways, the test was a serious disservice to the AquaComputer product once it was put on a motherboard.

I think you're going to have to explain why you feel this way before the rest of us will understand. As it stands, we're a bit stumped.

 

[Pooky]

where does it come from? "we are the large bore enthusiasts. we advocate performance and pushing the limits." vs. "we are the small bore enthusiasts. we advocate pragmatism and good looks." might be one place to look.

But why are those differences so important? If I'm cooling for looks (which I should add, I am) and you're cooling for the maximum performance, why does it matter what I use to achieve my results?

incidently, i ALSO feel nothing but contempt for the fool in a cavalier with tonnes of kit who CAN'T pass me on the highway doing 160 Km/h, when i'm driving a largely stock and totally plain looking sentra. i don't care if it looks fast, if it can't deliver they're just useless add-ons.

But it doesn't bother me one bit...

 

[topcat989]

Nope, don't care to rephrase AT ALL. I remember her distinctly saying that AC provids a complete system. This is not the case as shown by these tests. I know she uses BI rads, but when you are posting on a forum, its all about wording, cause thats all there is! Also, how could you split up a loop more than having only one block?

I'm with most of the forum on this though: the pump should have been run at full capacity. Thats the only real flaw I see in this. They reviewed what was sent, and compared it to other products of a simular configuration (IE, one 120mm fan).

as far as what TN said about a complete system, i wasn't there. But hell, most WC companies offer a complete system. Was she pherhaps referring to the "extras" that AC makes such as the aquero, multiswitch, tubemeter, flow sensor, and the like? I would say that AC provides a "more complete" system.

Also, most stock WC systems are not perfect, why do you think so many put together their own systems? This block with these fans and that rad, etc....

It's clear that the block performed decently even though it was hamstrung in 2 important ways.


Well things pretty much turned out as predicted, those set in their ways are not willing to open their mind to another veiwpoint, no matter what the data.

that goes for both sides of the fence, btw

 

[Punx_Clever]

Nononon, your missing what I'm saying,the block is a good block, not the best, but damn near it.

The whole kit supplied was what sucked. The complete "system" as it was.

Actually, what the whole review shows is what E354 and the others have said all along: The block is a good block, one of the best out there. But when you put it with 1/4" tubing, a weak pump, and an outdated tube-style radiator, well, it dont matter how good the block is, the loop is gonna suck. The watercooling "system" that TN has preached about AC providing has been blown out of the water, not the block.

at least thats what I think I said there...

 

[Top Nurse]

Lol, typical defensive posture response.

1) Storm beat XT at every flow rate. And your calling me narrow minded.
2) What you should learn. Sticking the Cuplex XT or any other block for that matter onto some norrow catheter sized tubing just doesn't make sense.
3) Hmm, I recall you guys talking about the evo style copper loop rads as being the cat's meow, now they are junk. Hmm, good ole defensive posturing, better known as back-pedaling.
4) "What is not to like?" How bout that setup costing $350 dollars, that is what not to like!

Still can't see the forest for the trees though can you? I mean come on Rick, a XP120 destroyed this thing in all areas but noise. Try to be just a little reasonable please...

1 => We never expected it to beat the Storm on paper.

2=> It works for a lot of people provided you use the Aquastream as it was intended to be.

3=> Actuall it's the Evo 120 that is the dog. The Evo 240 and 360 work reasonably well.

4=> If you only make a $350 a week then I can see your point. However, lots of people make considerably more than that in a day.

5=> It only destroyed it because it was tested in an improper manner.

 

[Top Nurse]

I also noticed this...

Correctly aligned chamfers with respect to the jets! The so-called AquaComputer secret is discovered to be little more than a massive error (probably). All chamfers seem to be aligned reasonably well. Either AC have corrected any glitches or this is simply a different revision. But, yes, pressure drop associated with the jets should now be much more reasonable. A large part of the total pressure drop of the Cuplex XT lies in the jets, so this is an important fix.

This is BS and makes me realize that everytime AC comes out with something new their QC takes a major dump. The block I and others have just shows that they are selling off their products so they don't have to scrap them. I have always wondered whether this kind of stuff is exported out of Germany where it is likely that it won't be returned due to expensive shipping charges.

 

[Top Nurse]

The great AC mystery seems to have been solved.

Maybe an inexperienced mill operator misaligned the blocks? maybe this is a new revision?

Well they did buy a new mill, but having machine tool experience I would say it is dobtful that their old mill could have that sloppy ways and still be able to turn the spindle without a racket. No this is just plain shoddy work. Obviously not something that AC should be putting out to the public. For Christ's sake mine was silver XT!

 

[Top Nurse]

You cant simply look at the graph and say that the XT works better than other blocks at low flow rates. Because in a loop where the XT might get .5gpm the RBX might get 1gpm, in which case the RBX wins. The high restriction of the XT means that while it can perform well at low flow rates....other blocks wont have as low a flow rate. It would have been nice to see a C/W versus hydraulic pumping power graph.

At the same flow rate with much less noise and heat generated the RBX loses.

 

[Top Nurse]

How is the mystery solved as there have been picture of this block on the forum for almost a year....... As for the revision, my original XT looks just like that one. I think the alignment is not consistant with milling the holes.

That is a really bad situation as it shows their fixturing is pretty shabby. I think they are just not paying any attention to their QC or the plates are being machined out of house.

 

[Top Nurse]

What I don't understand is if the XT is in second or third on the graphs, how does that make it a bad block and worthy of ridicual?

It doesn't, but the Aquatrolls would like to turn and twist this to their own meaning.

 

[Top Nurse]

You haven't been keeping up on the threads lately.

Summary of the graphs: The Cuplex XT not only performs worse at every flow rate than the Storm, but it's more difficult to get the same flow rate between the two. So much for the whole "optimized for low flow" bull that's been claimed over and over.

Ahh...but at the flow rates it was ran at it ran better than most of the pack.

 

[Erasmus354]

It doesn't, but the Aquatrolls would like to turn and twist this to their own meaning.

Nobody in here has been bashing the Cuplex XT, they instead have been bashing small tubing, weak(ish) pumps, and poor radiators. Not twisting of wording here.

Ahh...but at the flow rates it was ran at it ran better than most of the pack.

The pack consisted of two Corsair kits (a memory company), two Koolance kits (another low flow company), and two air heatsinks. Not much competition there now is there?

At the same flow rate with much less noise and heat generated the RBX loses.

Once again you are conveniently missing the entire point. The RBX will never have the same flowrate as the Cuplex XT. That is because the Cuplex XT is much more restrictive. Hence if you took out the Cuplex of any given loop and plopped in the RBX, the RBX would get more flow. The point of my post is not to say the RBX performs better than the Cuplex XT. That is hard to tell simply by guessing at the graph. The point of my post is that you can't simply look at the C/W vs. Flow graph and claim that block X is better than block Y.

Actuall it's the Evo 120 that is the dog. The Evo 240 and 360 work reasonably well.

Seems rather unelegant to me. Your saying that the smaller radiator is crap, while if you take an american style brute force approach and simply add more size then its ok? If the EVO120 fails to compare favorably to other 120mm counterparts, what makes the EVO 240 compare favorably to other dual 120mm counterparts, or does it?

 

[CCUABIDExORxDIE]

Ahh...but at the flow rates it was ran at it ran better than most of the pack.

since when can we convert CFM to flow rates?? also...please start making big posts like Erasmus, quoting many times per post, instead of a 5 posts in a row with a single quote in them.

 

[Etacovda]

lol at this thread, eh
TN, you did noticed he mentioned the pump overclocking, yes?

Hilarity...

does mention the low noise though, which is admirable - my main aim for watercooling at any rate.

 

[thewhiteguy]

At the same flow rate with much less noise and heat generated the RBX loses.

Take another look at the graphs, buddy.

 

[dutchcedar]

Two to three degrees is something that we watercoolers typically lose sleep over.

I don't mean to pick you out of the herd personally, but I just HAD to pick someone...

That said, if a few degrees is so friggin' valuable to justify losing sleep over, why are you overclockers even bothering with watercooling when there are better performing solutions available?

I've been following this thread and it just baffles me that someone looking for a "few degrees more", which sounds perfectly reasonable on the surface, would be wallowing with a system that's not using refrigerant.

Its kinda like trying to break the land speed record with a piston engine, isn't it?

And please don't give me the money equation... anyone willing to persue true high performance and lose sleep over it would surely be willing to work some extra hours to cover the cost.

For the record, I'm into watercooling quite heavily, use 3/8" tubing over 1/2" barbs, have built my share of liquid cooled rigs (mostly duallies), never lose sleep over any of them, love building fun rigs, have never been reluctant to search out the best stuff to work with and to be blunt, find this entire discourse a disappointment and a poor reflection on the enthusiast PC crowd and this forum in particular.

 

[theseeker]

I don't mean to pick you out of the herd personally, but I just HAD to pick someone...

That said, if a few degrees is so friggin' valuable to justify losing sleep over, why are you overclockers even bothering with watercooling when there are better performing solutions available?

I've been following this thread and it just baffles me that someone looking for a "few degrees more", which sounds perfectly reasonable on the surface, would be wallowing with a system that's not using refrigerant.

Its kinda like trying to break the land speed record with a piston engine, isn't it?

And please don't give me the money equation... anyone willing to persue true high performance and lose sleep over it would surely be willing to work some extra hours to cover the cost.

For the record, I'm into watercooling quite heavily, use 3/8" tubing over 1/2" barbs, have built my share of liquid cooled rigs (mostly duallies), never lose sleep over any of them, love building fun rigs, have never been reluctant to search out the best stuff to work with and to be blunt, find this entire discourse a disappointment and a poor reflection on the enthusiast PC crowd and this forum in particular.

Too bad you dont reside in Houston.
I agree with you. If you want the extra oomph! then go with phase change.

 

[phide]

I don't mean to pick you out of the herd personally, but I just HAD to pick someone...

Perhaps you're taking my comments far too literally, but I don't imagine you're to blame for that. I don't typically use "emoticons", as they make me feel like a child. I did exaggerate quite excessively on the subject, so I imagined most wouldn't take me quite as seriously as it seems you have.

No, cost is not the issue (for me, at least). There's another facet of sub-ambient (phase change, TEC, chilling, etc.) that you're forgetting: condensation. Many are totally uninterested in subambient cooling for this reason alone. I've looked at solutions that would reduce my coolant temperature, but none have truly met my criteria. I push as hard as I please with the components that I have, and those components do not allow coolant temperatures to fall below ambient. If I come across a product that will safely and effectively reduce my coolant temperatures, and maintain a situation where the coolant temperature is never allowed (electronically or otherwise) to fall below the ambient temperature (or one to two degrees below), then I'll implement it.

I find this entire discourse a disappointment and a poor reflection on the enthusiast PC crowd and this forum in particular.

A bold statement. You're referring to this entire topic or just to my statements and opinions? If it is the latter, then it's possible you need to spend more time reflecting on what I've said and my wording. If it's the former, I can't say I blame you. There are so many here that only seem interested in bashing others' views - and hey, that's bullshit, no matter how you sum it up.

 

[dutchcedar]

If I come across a product that will safely and effectively reduce my coolant temperatures, and maintain a situation where the coolant temperature is never allowed (electronically or otherwise) to fall below the ambient temperature (or one to two degrees below), then I'll implement it.

Phase change cooling, with ambient temperature sensors conected to the system, would do the trick.

A bold statement. You're referring to this entire topic or just to my statements and opinions? If it is the latter, then it's possible you need to spend more time reflecting on what I've said and my wording. If it's the former, I can't say I blame you. There are so many here that only seem interested in bashing others' views - and hey, that's bullshit, no matter how you sum it up.

There's no reason for a defensive posture, I was quite clear...

I was refering to "the entire discourse" when saying its a bad reflection on "the enthusiast PC crowd and this forum in particular", not your words.

My questions to you specifically had only to do with your choice of watercooling for overclocking. I kinda get your point after reading your response, even though the search for those extra few degrees seems kinda pointless to me, but I'm not a big overclocker. If I were, I would have refrigerants connected to the 'puter. Condensation is just as "lickable" as leaks. But thanks for explaining...

 

[plywood99]

1 => We never expected it to beat the Storm on paper.

2=> It works for a lot of people provided you use the Aquastream as it was intended to be.

3=> Actuall it's the Evo 120 that is the dog. The Evo 240 and 360 work reasonably well.

4=> If you only make a $350 a week then I can see your point. However, lots of people make considerably more than that in a day.

5=> It only destroyed it because it was tested in an improper manner.

1) My comment was in reply to Ricks comment. Please READ the quote in my original post.

2) uhh huh...

3) uhh huh sure...

4) uhh huh sure whatever...

5) I was going to quote your comment and Robotech's reply from the SystemCooling Forums, but it seems to have been deleted. How sad. To say Lee tested it improperly and to quote you from memory, " a general review," is just mind boggling. Do you have any idea the time involved in these things? I've been to Lee's house a few times and observed while he did his testing. He is very meticulous and quite the professional, taking no shortcuts. You wont find a person taking more pride in doing as accurate a review as him.

As regards the "overclocking" of the pump, PLEASE!!! How much of a boost are you really going to get 10%, maybe 20%. Get real TN!!! It has been proven time and again the performance penalties involved in using poorly matched components. You knew what what kit Sharka was sending to Lee for review. And all I heard was how it was going to dominate. Crowe was going to be eaten, yadda yadda yadda.

Sadly the more you talk the more hypocrisy we have to sift through...

 

[DFI Daishi]

I was refering to "the entire discourse" when saying its a bad reflection on "the enthusiast PC crowd and this forum in particular", not your words.

and you were probably not really thinking of phide, who is reasonably moderate and is carefull to qualify his statements, when you made such a comment.

myself, on the other hand......i'm not nearly so inoffensive. i take an extreme side on this issue, and i have made it clear a few times in this thread.

is there something specific that you would like to address your commentary towards? you have made a nice blanket statement, but what specifically is incorrect in this thread? perhaps the strong personalities arguing for both sides of the issue, even if the majority takes a much more moderate view on the subject? i think that one might be easy to make a statement on and defend.

so far as phase goes: retail phase has been damn expensive to date. OCZ's new unit should change that, but that doesn't change the fact that a phase change unit to cool just the CPU at this point runs double what a complete water loop costs. this is largely a young man's game, and that's a lot to shell out. building your own is, of course, much cheaper, but that requires specialized knowledge, liscences and tools.

http://kit-tronics.com/xcart/customer/product.php?productid=3019&cat=89&page=1 which is to say 12 OT shifts at what i usually work for.

 

[theseeker]

1) My comment was in reply to Ricks comment. Please READ the quote in my original post.

2) uhh huh...

3) uhh huh sure...

4) uhh huh sure whatever...

5) I was going to quote your comment and Robotech's reply from the SystemCooling Forums, but it seems to have been deleted. How sad. To say Lee tested it improperly and to quote you from memory, " a general review," is just mind boggling. Do you have any idea the time involved in these things? I've been to Lee's house a few times and observed while he did his testing. He is very meticulous and quite the professional, taking no shortcuts. You wont find a person taking more pride in doing as accurate a review as him.

As regards the "overclocking" of the pump, PLEASE!!! How much of a boost are you really going to get 10%, maybe 20%. Get real TN!!! It has been proven time and again the performance penalties involved in using poorly matched components. You knew what what kit Sharka was sending to Lee for review. And all I heard was how it was going to dominate. Crowe was going to be eaten, yadda yadda yadda.

Sadly the more you talk the more hypocrisy we have to sift through...

1. It would take too long to reply.
2. If you had any experience with an Aquastream you would understand what she is
talking about.
3. Once again, you have to use one (which means-own one) to understand how they work.
4. I never talk about money.
5. Yes, she does have an idea of what and how long it takes to test these systems. If
her comments "boggled your mind" then I suggest you get a new mind. I do not know
Lee and I would not doubt or question his testing methods. I have to criticize the
sponsor for not sending the correct components and for not telling them how to use
it correctly. If you OC an Aquastream, the flow can increase by much more than 20%.
When TN speaks of an AC system, it is an AC system that consists of the CORRECT
components. It also requires a fair amount of $. When done correctly it works very
well. Those of us that use AC gear understand how to match it up, or to use your
words, it is not poorly matched. While she may have known what kit they were sending
it is not what she would have sent, if it were her choice.
6. Within the next two weeks there will be a new sheriff in town for the H20 fans. When the
sheriff arrives, he will send out the AC gear in the fashion that it needs to be tested.
7. While you may not agree with TN, you have to admit that she has given a great deal
of information and help to this forum.
8. Crow is spelled crow, it does not have an "e" at the end.
9. Be nice

 

[nikhsub1]

...and to be blunt, find this entire discourse a disappointment and a poor reflection on the enthusiast PC crowd and this forum in particular.

Well you see, unfortunately this is how it is here at the [H] and why most of the most knowledgeable do not post here. Tis quite a shame actually. This whole joust between the AC crowd and the big bore crowd is just such a bore really, I mean, how many times can you say the same thing? How often can facts be ignored? It's old and tiresome and no fun and I for one could give a rats ass what people think about how different systems perform. I will be so bold as to say that I have the most efficient, most capable system there is (don't tell me about noise).

Can't we all just move on?

 

[plywood99]

1. It would take too long to reply.
2. If you had any experience with an Aquastream you would understand what she is
talking about.
3. Once again, you have to use one (which means-own one) to understand how they work.
4. I never talk about money.
5. Yes, she does have an idea of what and how long it takes to test these systems. If
her comments "boggled your mind" then I suggest you get a new mind. I do not know
Lee and I would not doubt or question his testing methods. I have to criticize the
sponsor for not sending the correct components and for not telling them how to use
it correctly. If you OC an Aquastream, the flow can increase by much more than 20%.
When TN speaks of an AC system, it is an AC system that consists of the CORRECT
components. It also requires a fair amount of $. When done correctly it works very
well. Those of us that use AC gear understand how to match it up, or to use your
words, it is not poorly matched. While she may have known what kit they were sending
it is not what she would have sent, if it were her choice.
6. Within the next two weeks there will be a new sheriff in town for the H20 fans. When the
sheriff arrives, he will send out the AC gear in the fashion that it needs to be tested.
7. While you may not agree with TN, you have to admit that she has given a great deal
of information and help to this forum.
8. Crow is spelled crow, it does not have an "e" at the end.
9. Be nice

1-7) More babble and back-pedalling...
8) W and E characters are next to each other...
9) I leave you all to your ignorant, misinformed drivel...

 

[R1ckCa1n]

I will be so bold as to say that I have the most efficient, most capable system there is (don't tell me about noise).

Care to add loudest? j/k You can safely add best looking too.

Can't we all just move on?

Now you know that is impossible on this forum, right? As I stare at my 32c X2 3800 running at 1.5 volts with two X1900XT's on the same loop (nice cool 34c each), I can't understand why people would complain about the results. I will be so bold as to say the only flaw in the review was the radiator used. That is not Lee's fault.

 

[theseeker]

1-7) More babble and back-pedalling...
8) W and E characters are next to each other...
9) I leave you all to your ignorant, misinformed drivel...

How cab I rebutt your eloquence?
BTW, ignorance is bliss, but I suppose you understand that better than the rest of us.

 

[theseeker]

Well you see, unfortunately this is how it is here at the [H] and why most of the most knowledgeable do not post here. Tis quite a shame actually. This whole joust between the AC crowd and the big bore crowd is just such a bore really, I mean, how many times can you say the same thing? How often can facts be ignored? It's old and tiresome and no fun and I for one could give a rats ass what people think about how different systems perform. I will be so bold as to say that I have the most efficient, most capable system there is (don't tell me about noise).

Can't we all just move on?

Key word, bore.
BTW, well put.

 

[Erasmus354]

Summary of Thread

• The Cuplex XT is a good block, very high restriction but it can hold its own and would probably shine with a strong pump.
• 6mm tubing shows a measureable performance drop over 3/8" tubing. Some people may be willing to take this performance drop others may not.
• The aquastream pump is quiet, and can and should have been "overclocked" in the SystemCooling review.
• The EVO 120 radiator is not a very good choice for a watercooling system. Using a Thermochill or Black Ice radiator would produce better results.
• AquaComputer makes nice components, but cannot provide a strong complete watercooling kit due to lacking in the radiator department. Besides mixing and matching is better anyways, blind company loyalty is ignorant.
• The Storm is hands down a better block than the Cuplex XT, beating it at every turn. The only difference between the two is the strongly subjective looks category.
• Intelligent interpretation of the common graphs given in waterblock tests is a must, and incorrect interpretation results to many pages of arguing between the ignorant and the informed.
• The AquaComputer kit was the quietest of the cooling solutions reviewed, the lack of highly accurate sound testing methods hurt the AC kit in this area of the testing.
• It doesn't matter if the testing was performed on a 0 or 10 year old motherboard so long as it was constant throughout the tests and the heatload was close to what modern processors put out.
• People on [H] enjoy to argue
• This thread has run its course and should be closed now

Did I miss any?

 

[DFI Daishi]

How cab I rebutt your eloquence?
BTW, ignorance is bliss, but I suppose you understand that better than the rest of us.

what both he and i fail to understand is how well run tests and thermodynamics can be ignored. claims that we need to try for ourselves in order to "know" how well something works, rather than being able to know based on being able to interpret the results of reviews...........somehow that doesn't have much weight coming from someone who expressed suprise at how well aftermarket air can cool a stock-clocked processor, when the results fell right where one would expect based on reviews of the heatsink in question, and predictions of the level of performance that A-C gear should yield.

there is no magic here: if there is good data on all of the parts used in the system, the effectiveness of the whole loop is pretty predictable. the only time it gets tough to call is when two close running waterblocks are put in loops that are otherwise the same, and the accuracy of the thermal diode as well as the exact room temperature become major issues.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

Summary of Thread

• The Cuplex XT is a good block, very high restriction but it can hold its own and would probably shine with a strong pump.
• 6mm tubing shows a measureable performance drop over 3/8" tubing. Some people may be willing to take this performance drop others may not.
• The aquastream pump is quiet, and can and should have been "overclocked" in the SystemCooling review.
• The EVO 120 radiator is not a very good choice for a watercooling system. Using a Thermochill or Black Ice radiator would produce better results.
• AquaComputer makes nice components, but cannot provide a strong complete watercooling kit due to lacking in the radiator department. Besides mixing and matching is better anyways, blind company loyalty is ignorant.
• The Storm is hands down a better block than the Cuplex XT, beating it at every turn. The only difference between the two is the strongly subjective looks category.
• Intelligent interpretation of the common graphs given in waterblock tests is a must, and incorrect interpretation results to many pages of arguing between the ignorant and the informed.
• The AquaComputer kit was the quietest of the cooling solutions reviewed, the lack of highly accurate sound testing methods hurt the AC kit in this area of the testing.
• It doesn't matter if the testing was performed on a 0 or 10 year old motherboard so long as it was constant throughout the tests and the heatload was close to what modern processors put out.
• People on [H] enjoy to argue
• This thread has run its course and should be closed now

Did I miss any?

Hate to say it, but I agree. I am going to do the unthinkable and say "good post".

 

[DFI Daishi]

[*]Intelligent interpretation of the common graphs given in waterblock tests is a must, and incorrect interpretation results to many pages of arguing between the ignorant and the informed.

with systemcooling reviews, it's reasonably fair to look at the C/W at the highest flow obtained, when comparing two pumps. this point shows where the flow peaks out for each of the block being evaluated, with the givent pump. this area will allow the less restrictive blocks to strut their stuff and show where the more restrictive blocks loose their steam. this area of the flow curve should give a pretty accurate measure of where a given block stacks up to another, with a given pump.

the leader at the end of the curve should be the same regardless of the specific pump used, unless the planned loop has some pretty unsusal requirements.

maybe there are some pumps out there that invalidate this, however i've been screwing around with excel in my free time using values picked off of systemcooling, procooling and other graphs and it seems to hold true for popular pumps like the 1046, 1048, D5, DDC and L30. if i put together something decent during the summer, i'll post it.

 

[dutchcedar]

and you were probably not really thinking of phide, who is reasonably moderate and is carefull to qualify his statements, when you made such a comment.

myself, on the other hand......i'm not nearly so inoffensive. i take an extreme side on this issue, and i have made it clear a few times in this thread.

is there something specific that you would like to address your commentary towards? you have made a nice blanket statement, but what specifically is incorrect in this thread? perhaps the strong personalities arguing for both sides of the issue, even if the majority takes a much more moderate view on the subject? i think that one might be easy to make a statement on and defend.

"Probably not thinking of phide"? Wassupwidat? I already clearly explained to phide that I wasn't "thinking of phide" when making the comment about this thread in general. Did you miss that? Jeez, it was right there in your quote...

Specific? Incorrect? Where did I say anything was incorrect? Why is there a need to be specific when addressing the general tone of a thread with over three hundred posts? nikhsub1 seems to have gotten the drift without specifics quite well, so why should I provide you with a road map? Do you need special assistance?

Strong personalities? Let me clear something up for you. Holding strongly to a position when there is no proof for it yet (first hundreds of posts), defending a disproven position (last hundred or so posts), or mis-representing results (also last hundred or so posts) are not necessarily a displays of "strong personalities", but of bull-headedness.

Apparently you see that as a fine reflection of "the enthusiast PC crowd and this forum in particular" and would like to argue the point. Have a go at it. Explain to me how the tenor of this thread casts a positive light on the watercooling community. Explain to me how the hundreds of posts in this thread have provided something positive, especially when robotech's results are not understood by so many and are explained by so few (if at all).

You "take a side on this issue". If that's related to taking a side in regards to the [H] forum, power to ya. If you "take a side" on the subject matter, however, you're not here to learn or teach, but to be a cheerleader for "your side" of the issue, whatever that is. Is it rah-rah contest? If so, then don't put down your pom-poms. Three cheers for the team, whichever that is (I didn't tie your posts to the author closely enough to know).

Keep in mind, I don't "have a side".

 

[theseeker]

what both he and i fail to understand is how well run tests and thermodynamics can be ignored. claims that we need to try for ourselves in order to "know" how well something works, rather than being able to know based on being able to interpret the results of reviews...........somehow that doesn't have much weight coming from someone who expressed suprise at how well aftermarket air can cool a stock-clocked processor, when the results fell right where one would expect based on reviews of the heatsink in question, and predictions of the level of performance that A-C gear should yield.

there is no magic here: if there is good data on all of the parts used in the system, the effectiveness of the whole loop is pretty predictable. the only time it gets tough to call is when two close running waterblocks are put in loops that are otherwise the same, and the accuracy of the thermal diode as well as the exact room temperature become major issues.

Correct, ther is no magic. Yes, I was surprised at my first attempt at high-end air cooling, but it was lacking. If you had read my follow up thread you would know that the AC gear dropped my two 254's by 20 C. When I say "know", I mean know. I have spent a great deal of time and a fair amount of money testing H20 gear. My first system was all AC, my second was a mixture and my third was all big bore including a silver storm. In my environment I have never seen more than 2C of a difference. That is what I mean by KNOW. My current system is all AC with the exception of the external Innovatek RAD, which is also shunned by most people. You can quote, think or say whatever you wish, but using the word predictable? The older one gets, one knows that nothing is predictable.
Then again, WTF do I know? Im 45 and retired.