System build help. Scrap or rebuild?

T

thenixhex311

Gawd
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
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I'm so confused with this. Ive read so many posts, articles, reviews, etc. etc. etc. and STILL cant decide what is best to do.

My system now is as follows:

P4 2.8ghz (northwood) socket 478 (stock heatsink/fan)
Gigabyte GA-8iPE1000 (Intel 865PE chipset)
1GB (2x 512) Corsair Value select ram ( 2.5 - 3 - 3 - 8 )
MSI GeForce 5700

the rest is yadda yadda yadda.

As im sure almost everyone on here does, money burns a hole in your pocket, and what you wanted a year or two ago, you quickly want to replace when you see all the bells and whistles other people have in their rigs.

I read in another thread that someone told me that my current CPU is a 'northwood' and at 2.8ghz would be faster than a 3.0-3.2 'prescott', and that they dont think it would be a valid upgrade.

I have 2 options, one is that im trying to sell my current system to someone I know, and if not, to 'scrap' parts and use what i need/sell what i dont.

If i sell it, GREAT, i can do what i want. If not, I have some decisions to make.


This is where i would like some help/advice.

1st thing is the motherboard. Im looking to get the MSI P4N diamond Nvidia Nforce4 intel edition. The key reason is obviously for the SLI support.

I dont plan on immediately goin SLI, but i would like the option to in the future. The processor wouldnt be a huge jump, up to either 3.0 or 3.2 (probably the 1st) I realize that this is not a big jump, but i know my current processor is not the '630' version like the 3.0ghz would be. (not sure what exactly that means, but...)

I would be selling my ram PC3200, and going to DDR2, Corsair Xtreme Performance 667 acutally, still 1gig of ram.

Video card im looking at either 2 6600GT's now or 1 6800 (GT?, Ultra?, regular?) now.


I guess my question is, what is your opinion and what would you do in this situation?

I dont have a ton of cash readily available to throw it down to get everything at once, and this new rebuild would take a couple months, but for the sake of upgradability and non-outdated-ness (is that even a word?) would i be better off just taking my time and building new, or just keeping my existing motherboard, getting an AGP version of the card, throwing in some more ram, and keeping the same cpu?

I want to be 64 bit ready too.... damnit. I guess i know what i WANT my answer to be, and what im GOING to do (buy buy buy) but I'd like to hear what everyone else would do or what benefits (noticable or not) i would have going from my current rig to a new one.

Also, any idea on what kinda 'street value' i would be looking at if i was going to sell my mobo, cpu, and ram?


thanks !
 
It all depends on where you want to stand in terms of performance....

As in upgrading now, you will not gain that much performance increase to be honest. Unless you upgrade the video card. I do however think that AGP will at least be around the next generation, so I would not be too worried about that.

If a full upgrade is where you want to go in terms of compatibility, I would not see any problem with it, but I would definetly want to be able to buy it all at once to make sure I have a full functioning computer that can at least replace my current one.

If it were me, I would wait till I had the money to do the full upgrade, since an overhaul like that requires a lot of new components.
 
I had a P4 2.8B too and upgraded to an Athlon 64 3000+ overclocked to 2.3Ghz and the difference is night and day. Games are faster, system is snappier and general video encoding, virus scans, etc... have become much faster.
 
With the rig you have at the moment and wanting to go the Intel route, I would wait untill the new dual core CPU's have stablized.
It looks like the new Intel dual cored CPU's will take a new socket, with AMD's it looks just like a bios flash.
So wait around six months while you save a bit more cash then decide which way you want to go.

Just my $0.02 worth.
Luck.......... :D
 
I would reccomend you spend your money on a cheap Athlon64, i.e. 3200+. The performance difference speaks for itself.
 
ok there are several routes to go with this.
a good upgrade for you that will get you big results fast in games is purchase a 6600gt graphics card. That aught to hold you for a year at least.
IF you want to go faster - upgrade to an AMD 939 pci express system - prolly go with a NForce 4 chipset with dual pci express 16x slots (dual graphics card) to enable future upgrade to dual graphics (sorry, nvidia only as of now)
Also, upgrading to the 939 socket almost insures that you will be able to upgrade to the new AMD 64X2 dual core cpus. (AMD claims most, if not all, socket 939 boards will be dual core cpu compatible - with Intel you WILL have to buy a new motherboard.)
I think that if you want to over clock - go DFI (some say MSI too) - if not or a "lighter" overclock go Epox, Abit, or Asus.
If you do go 939 dual 16x pci express, go with the 6800 series nvidia card.
IF you dont want to go dual video - and want to save $$$ - upgrade to a single slot pci express and buy an ATI X800XL series card (80-90%+ of the performance of one 6800GT or x850 series at $100 less...) This will still enable the dual core upgrade in the future. It might be a decent suggestion to buy an agp version of the x800xl and keep the rest of the system as is...
Ok, a good estimate for your parts pricing - look at the present prices for them - start at 60-75% of the present day new prices (say off newegg.com) and then go down in price if they dont sell.
IF you go intel - well - look to have to upgrade nearly everything when the dual cores come out (everything as in motherboard/cpu/possibly memory) and uupgrading now to DDR2 has shown no benefits over DDR - at least until a bin or two higher (possibly more) over the DDR2 you plan to buy. With the amd camp you can keep your present memory... and save $$$
I have had great experiences with the for sale/trade forum here on [H]ardforum...
 
HvyMtl, that was EXTREMELY informative. The only problem is, I really have no experience/knowledge of AMD products.

when i looked on newegg, and i saw that AMD processors have 2.2ghz etc. speeds. the 'number factor' 3.2 ghz - 2.2 just really stuck out in my head due to my lack of knowledge.

So AMD processors that are 2.2 ghz , etc. are just as fast/faster than intel's that are 3.0 +?


I have experience with MSI, but nothing really with DFI. Does DFI offer the same software packages/bios features as MSI/Gigabyte?

There are 2 DFI mobo's on newegg i see:

DFI LANPARTY nF4 SLI-DR Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX

DFI LANPARTY UT nF4 SLI-DR Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD

Other than the 20.00 price difference, what benefits do the one have over the other?

Also there is the MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum. A LOT of good reviews on newegg.


I really like the idea that AMD offers that 'non-futureproof' feature. Thats one of the MAIN THINGS that is starting to sway me to AMD.

I was considering spending on the intel system that i wanted
MSI P4N Diamond Intel edition (250.00) and an Intel 3.2 GHZ processor (240.00)

SO i WAS considering spending around that much...it wouldnt be TOO bad to spend less.

That being said, would be saving 50.00 on the motherboard. So i would have 280-290 to spend on the processor.

Venice? Clawhammer? Sempron? What the.....

There are about 3-4 CPU's listed in my pricerange:

AMD Athlon 64 3500+ ClawHammer/Hammer 1GHz 267.00

AMD Athlon 64 3500+ Venice 1GHz 272.00

AMD Athlon 64 3500+ Winchester Integrated into Chip FSB 260.00



They sound all great... but that whole 2.2ghz thing is really getting me.




I DO plan on going to SLI eventually, but dont really have the cash to buy 2 video cards.

I was considering 2 6600GTs, but EVERYONES all '6800 this, 6800 that...." and would really like to see what everyone is raving about!


I've ready alot of people say that Intel is the way to go for Multimedia stuff, AMD for gaming. I DO DO more multimedia work (Photoshop, Dreamweaver, etc) than gaming.
Doom 3, CS:S, HL2, Madden, TigerWoods, NHL, etc.


You have been extremely helpful out of everyone so far, and are making things clearer to me. Sway the little fears I DO have and guide me in the right direction here!
 
I also just read some reviews of the 3800+, and while it is quite a bit more than i wanted to spend....it sounds like it might be worth the extra loot.
 
sorry for not quickly responding -
the "performance rating" is in comparison to the equivalent P 4 - tho in most cases that is no longer true - the AMD have a performance advantage in most tests (especially gaming)
The performance rating is now outmoded as intel has gone to numbering their cpus...
ok, the DFI - I am limited in info here - usually has a bit better options of overclocking in its bios - and it usually comes with some major bells & whistles (such as a carrying strap for your pc case, so you can take it to lan parties)
The difference in the two DFI boards is this: the cheaper one does NOT have SLI enabled (but a quick pencil mod (literally drawing a line with a pencil on the northbridge chip) can make it a SLI board... I suggest going with the more expensive one if you are unsure about the pancil trick or removing the northbridge cooler...
The Venice core is the one to get ( yes there is a premium - but it has new enhancements like the newer intel instructions are supported, lower power consuption, cooler running, supposedly better overclocking)
Yes its is an actual 2.2ghz core - but again performs like a 3.5ghz Intel (actually faster in games)
Ok, going SLI - the 6600 series is great - until you want to play at 1600x1200 then it gets spanked by the 6800 - also 2x6600 SLI = 1 x 6800 in the tests I have seen at 1600x1200. So, that is why you go 6800, as 1x 6800 is usually cheaper than 2x6600 and allows you to upgrade to the higher speed SLI...
Again, in most multitasking, truthfully, the new AMD will be better than your present set up - and as soon as the dual core 64x2 comes out they generally run better than the Intel dual core at the same clock speeds - at a higher price sadly...
Also, in most situations - the intel Hyperthreading is a little overhyped (your software needs to be written to take real advantage of dual core or hyperthreading single/dual core...) And if you havent updated/bought new software recently - you prolly wont be able to take advantage of most of HT or dual core...
Most bang for buck is still amd...
Best of luck
 
Anyone reading this thread.. I got the P4N Diamond today and I'm looking for any kind of posts where people have similar problems. I have an Intel 530J w/Zalman CNPS-7700Cu and PDP PDC21G5600+XBLK (PC2-5600). These same components were stable to 260FSB on my Asus P5GDC Deluxe (i915p). I'm pretty sure the limiter was my motherboard. The CPU ran 3.9ghz stable as a rock. The memory ran 693mhz at 5-4-4-12-1 (supposed to do 710mhz@4-3-3-12-1, but i915p on asus has extremely tight memory controller).

Long story short, I can't get these same components to run above 1000FSB (which FORCES my memory to 666mhz). Yes, you read correctly.. no options in my bios allow for the much bragged about independent DDR2 and FSB settings. The three options are disable, linked, and manual for overclocking. linked turns the DDR2 monitoring off completely. Manual allows me to change the FSB, and the DDR2 speed changes, but in a locked ratio (there is no response to attempts to change the DDR2 speed.. just the screen flashes). What's worse, the voltage controls do NOT allow me to change DDR2 voltage or cpu voltage.. ONLY northbridge voltage.

I'm getting so tired of companies shipping cherry picked custom components for reviewing and then buying the product only to find out the mass produced version is crippled. I've already checked, and there's no official bios update.. i'm looking for a beta, but no luck yet.


IN SHORT... don't buy this board unless you're ready to be disappointed. If I can't get it to at least catch up to my old i915p Asus P5GDC Deluxe motherboard, it's going BACK to newegg.. and I dare them to charge me a restocking fee.
 
TechnoButt said:
Anyone reading this thread.. I got the P4N Diamond today and I'm looking for any kind of posts where people have similar problems. I have an Intel 530J w/Zalman CNPS-7700Cu and PDP PDC21G5600+XBLK (PC2-5600). These same components were stable to 260FSB on my Asus P5GDC Deluxe (i915p). I'm pretty sure the limiter was my motherboard. The CPU ran 3.9ghz stable as a rock. The memory ran 693mhz at 5-4-4-12-1 (supposed to do 710mhz@4-3-3-12-1, but i915p on asus has extremely tight memory controller).

Long story short, I can't get these same components to run above 1000FSB (which FORCES my memory to 666mhz). Yes, you read correctly.. no options in my bios allow for the much bragged about independent DDR2 and FSB settings. The three options are disable, linked, and manual for overclocking. linked turns the DDR2 monitoring off completely. Manual allows me to change the FSB, and the DDR2 speed changes, but in a locked ratio (there is no response to attempts to change the DDR2 speed.. just the screen flashes). What's worse, the voltage controls do NOT allow me to change DDR2 voltage or cpu voltage.. ONLY northbridge voltage.

I'm getting so tired of companies shipping cherry picked custom components for reviewing and then buying the product only to find out the mass produced version is crippled. I've already checked, and there's no official bios update.. i'm looking for a beta, but no luck yet.


IN SHORT... don't buy this board unless you're ready to be disappointed. If I can't get it to at least catch up to my old i915p Asus P5GDC Deluxe motherboard, it's going BACK to newegg.. and I dare them to charge me a restocking fee.
Click to expand...


If you knew what you were doing you go into the hidden bios menu................
Reviewers know what they are doing,thats why they get products to work as advertised.
 
If money is burning a hole in your pocket, I suggest you put it in an envelope and send it to me. I'll tell you how fast the Athlon64 that I buy with your money is.
 
CMAN said:
If you knew what you were doing you go into the hidden bios menu................
Reviewers know what they are doing,thats why they get products to work as advertised.
Click to expand...

Wow, thanks for confirming my suspicions of your intellectual capacity. :rolleyes:

Good news, there is an unofficial 1.10 bios that should enable those features. The diamond card in the kit does *not* allow you to create a diamond account on the website yet (I suspect it will, but they haven't updated the database to allow for the P4N Diamond cards to activate accounts).

I'll give you guys some results when I get the new bios loaded tonight. I'm hoping for 4.2ghz on air and 6300 memory marks (DDR2-710mhz or better).
 
Buckus said:
If money is burning a hole in your pocket, I suggest you put it in an envelope and send it to me. I'll tell you how fast the Athlon64 that I buy with your money is.
Click to expand...

You're using a ti4200 and you're even concerned about how fast your processor is? That's pretty funny.
 
As for the topic of the OP:

Your rig:
P4 2.8ghz (northwood) socket 478 (stock heatsink/fan)
Gigabyte GA-8iPE1000 (Intel 865PE chipset)
1GB (2x 512) Corsair Value select ram ( 2.5 - 3 - 3 - 8 )
MSI GeForce 5700
Click to expand...

There is nothing out there that really justifies the cost of upgrading your motherboard, cpu, and memory at this point. The only motivation for doing so is to get your video to PCI-e rather than buying a new AGP video card. It's hard to guess what is going to happen to the value's of AGP cards over the next 8-10 months as PCI-e reaches critical mass. Either the price will go up because fewer and fewer are available new (AGP cards are already fetching a premium for the same technology by comparison to PCI-e). Or they may bottom out because everyone dumps their gaming cards when they go to PCI-e.

Your only weak component is your video card, and it's only weak if you're trying to play a game right now that doesn't pull enough frames at a quality level that satisfies you.

DDR2 is not significantly better than DDR. If you overclock, it does offer more memory bandwidth for most people at the very highest speeds.

AMD64 is faster for games than stock Intel lga775 P4 rigs (although the P4N Diamond you're mentioning may change that). 955 and Nforce4 Intel Edition boards will support dual core. The 630 (and ilk) cpus offer 64-bit extensions (useless) and better thermal management with the enhanced stop. The biggest advantage is that they are the newest production and therefore tend to run cooler and are more overclockable.

Video cards are in transition as we speak. The best bang for the buck is PCI-e X800Xl, no doubt. It'll run everything out there and do it well, plus the reviews all say ATI is doing a better quality render in most popular games (over Nvidia).

However, if you're into the overclocking market, and you're not too worried about the issue of suddenly losing value in your components as socket-478, DDR1, and AGP go the way of the dinosaur.. perhaps your best solution would be to pick up an AGP 6200 card. Those can basically all be unlocked to 6600 specs (pipelines) and can be overclocked to better than 6600 stock speeds (about halfway to 6600GT speeds, give or take). That's enough for respectable game performance with anything out today (and probably this year) for ~$100.

If you absolutely must buy new equipment and you want to put $500 into your new system. You can reasonably expect to get $300-350 out of your current listed equipment on the used market here in the forums. If you want to turn it over quickly, it might drop to $250. That gives you $750-850 to work with to buy memory/mobo/video/cpu. This is what *I* would buy:


$224.20 X800XL (oem refurb)
$228.99 Retail Boxed Intel 630
$238.50 P4N Diamond (Nforce4ie)*this recommendation depends on the results I get from the bios upgrade I'm doing tonight*
$199.93 Patriot PDC21G5600+XBLK

$891.62 (the motherboard comes with Soundblaster 24-bit HD-EAX Sound, very good)


In fact, by tomorrow that is what my rig will be, except I'm running a 530J.. which for all practical purposes is the same as a 630. My 530 will run 3.9ghz under my Zalman CNPS-7700Cu and stay in the low 50C under full load (superpi+prime95).

But unless you're crazy for new hardware, that really doesn't make financial sense (unless you're convinced your hardware is going to lose it's value unreasonably fast over the next few months). I went PCI-e, DDR2, LGA775 in November last year from a Shuttle setup (because shuttle's were all the craze and I fetched a very good price from my rig.. and buying new, it was a no-brainer to pick up the new technology).

If you want to go halfway, there are lots of people dumping i915p motherboards that will run DDR1 but allow for lga775 and PCI-e. That will keep you from having to trade memory and save you as much as $250 - $150 on the motherboard and $100 on the RAM upgrade to DDR2. In fact, I have a shiny new from RMA Asus P5GDC Deluxe that I'm trying to sell as I type this:
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=45&threadid=1592741

I got it to run 250bus with some good DDR1, which ran my 530J at 3.75ghz and the memory at DDR500. With DDR2, I got it stable at 260fsb, which is 3.9ghz and DDR2-693.
 
I think the reason 6800 PCI-e boards are hot right now is the marketting hype about SLI. If you happen to play primarily the games that have SLI support, you will see some improvement. People think they can buy a 6800 now and then pick up a second one later for SLI on the cheap as the games improve.

The bottom line: SLI is only an option if you're building a new rig right now. It has good results when the games support it. There is no guarantee that future games will support it. The additional costs of preparing for SLI and only buying one 6800 at the moment are offset by the fact that a single card solution later this year will most likely outperform 2x6800 in SLI. If you compare a single 6800GT to an X800XL, the difference in price is not justified by the difference in performance. The only justification for the price difference is the hype about SLI, the increased demand for cards because of the people doing SLI now to win benchmark wars, and the increased demand from people who hope to pick up a second card later when they can afford it to avoid buying a new video card.

My gamble is that X800XL will be fine for the rest of the year. I'll buy a new card next year when the next big revision hits (when ATI and NVidia start to port their technology from the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3).

I bought a P4N Diamond because of it's ability to overclock (reported from reviews), it's superior memory bandwidth to even i954, and the soundblaster sound built onboard. I may eat my words and go SLI if the 6800's bottom out when the next gen cards come out, but in the meantime, I'll be running a single X800XL.

There is absolutely *NO REASON* to purchase new 6600GT cards for SLI right now. None.
 
Anyone following this:

I got Bios 1.10 from an MSI contact today.. and now I can adjust voltages, but still no independent adjustment of memory clock speeds.

I'm getting really tired of false advertising. :(

It seems stable at 3.9ghz and memory at 693mhz, just like the Asus P5GDC Deluxe. No improvement.. I doubt the SLI even works. :(
 
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