Switching to mac

[pumpkin_carver]

Whatsup everyone? So I was thinking about getting a mac with some student loan refund money but am torn because I thought I was going to get back more than I expected but as is the case I am not. I initially wanted a imac and macbook pro so I could work at home and have something to be mobile with. I need to find one under a $1000 and preferably newer. What do you guys/girls think would be the best, either get the laptop or the desktop? If I can't get anything I am just going to upgrade my PC or buy a new one. I haven't gotten the refund check yet so I just wanted some opinions from mac users before I make a decision.

Thanks

 

[ekuest]

i dont own or use a mac, but i would recommend against a mac desktop unless MAYBE if you need the big display and dont already have one. otherwise, it will be WAY easier, cheaper, and more useful to just upgrade 1 or 2 components of your PC. as much as i hate them and think theyre overpriced and overhyped, the mac laptops are quite nice. dont get a retina mbp because theyre too expensive and the screen does not justify the premium for 99% of users. i would try to find a year or 2 old mbp or mba. im not sure on pricing, but i dont think either of them would be under $1000 new unless it was base base model. unfortunately they hold their value very well so even a year or 2 old will still be pretty pricey but you should be able to get a decently specced model for your budget.

 

[toast0]

What hardware do you have now? A mac mini can be a not so expensive way to dip your feet in the OS X pond (which I personally find to be a terrible place*). I wouldn't buy a mac laptop unless you're already committed to the OS; you can run other OSes on it, but it's not straightforward and if you're going to end up running Windows, I don't think it's worth it to spend more on hardware to have a less good windows experience.

* I've been using a MBP at work since October; previously work was a windows desktop + freebsd and rhel linux via ssh.

 

[pumpkin_carver]

I have an XP machine with 4 gbs of ram, amd processor and 160gb hard drive. I do web design and development work and for some reason I just want to switch over to mac. I was thinking getting a mac mini too since they are pretty cheap and just run one of my monitors off of that.

 

[ekuest]

oh yeah mac minis are nice. i thought you were talking about the imacs. pretty expensive for the hardware, but they are the smallest and sleekest you can get and are decent performers.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

I think the best deal you can get is for an 11" MBA from 2011, with an i5 and 4GB of RAM. Generally, those can be had for around $600-$700. If it was my money, that is what I'd get.

 

[Terpfen]

I think the best deal you can get is for an 11" MBA from 2011, with an i5 and 4GB of RAM. Generally, those can be had for around $600-$700. If it was my money, that is what I'd get.

The 11'' is actually not that great a deal simply because the smaller size means a smaller battery. The 13'' model is superior on that front.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

The 11'' is actually not that great a deal simply because the smaller size means a smaller battery. The 13'' model is superior on that front.

Well it's give a take. 2 hours of battery life for 2" of size off, smaller size/weight. I personally opt for the size/weight trade, the 11" already has plenty of battery life for me. I can see why people would pick it the other way around. I don't think you can lose either way.

 

[_brew]

the 11" is really a pain to use unless you're really small, like a girl, or something and even then it doesn't show enough on the screen to be completely useful. the 13" is small enough. I had my gf go in to an apple store to do her Facebook and try to write some papers on there and check her emails and do regular browsing through Macy's and Target and Victoria Secret and a whole bunch of differently laid out sites so she could see for herself what it was like to have significant portions of the page off screen (so you have to constantly scroll all over the place).

 

[slh28]

I really wouldn't pick the 11in MBA, the screen resolution is low and it just won't be comfortable to work with or to look at. The 13in MBA has a 1440x900 screen, better battery life and isn't much bulkier or harder to carry around.

 

[J W]

Mac Mini + cheap monitor is the way to go on the cheap. You might also be able to find a deal for a 13" -- maybe $999. You're a student? Don't forget to check your tech/bookstore for deals.

I think the biggest allure of getting a mac right now is the touchpad. You can get that obviously with the mac mini, too.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

the 11" is really a pain to use unless you're really small, like a girl, or something and even then it doesn't show enough on the screen to be completely useful. the 13" is small enough. I had my gf go in to an apple store to do her Facebook and try to write some papers on there and check her emails and do regular browsing through Macy's and Target and Victoria Secret and a whole bunch of differently laid out sites so she could see for herself what it was like to have significant portions of the page off screen (so you have to constantly scroll all over the place).

The thing is, this is all based upon opinion. "Small enough" is an opinion. I don't think the 13" is "small enough." Additionally, I don't appreciate the insinuation, nor do I think that women would appreciate that only small things are for them, or that they couldn't appreciate larger machines.

I really wouldn't pick the 11in MBA, the screen resolution is low and it just won't be comfortable to work with or to look at. The 13in MBA has a 1440x900 screen, better battery life and isn't much bulkier or harder to carry around.

The 11" MBA has a 1366 x 768 resolution screen. This is a higher resolution than the 13" MBP at 1280 x 800. This resolution then is hard to argue that it isn't efficient or big enough, or easy enough to use. There are tons of people whos ONLY machine is a 13" MBP. I was in that situation for well over a year, and the resolution is fine.

If it's not fine for you and your purposes, I can see that. But that is an opinion, not an objective fact, as like I say, the resolution on the 11" is greater than a machine that many people use as their daily/only computer. Additionally, not being that "much bulkier or harder to carry around" is also an opinion. My goals with a laptop is all about size, weight, and portability. With those requirements it's hard to recommend something larger.

Clearly a lot of people feel the same way, as the 11" is quite popular... popular enough to go for three generations and not have Apple cancel it due to lack of sales.

I gave my suggestion based upon (of course) my opinion. Is the 13" better for the OP vs the 11"? Perhaps, but that isn't something either you or I can comment on, only the OP knows his requirements. At this point so far, he's basically only stated that he has $1k, and wants to buy 2 Macs, but is currently only really capable at purchasing one.

 

[Terpfen]

Well it's give a take. 2 hours of battery life for 2" of size off, smaller size/weight. I personally opt for the size/weight trade, the 11" already has plenty of battery life for me. I can see why people would pick it the other way around. I don't think you can lose either way.

If you're going for an 11'' Air, you might as well just get the 9.7'' iPad, IMO.

 

[_brew]

I don't appreciate the insinuation, nor do I think that women would appreciate that only small things are for them, or that they couldn't appreciate larger machines.

The 11" wrist area and trackpad is smaller than the 13" so someone with average sized male hands or larger might find the layout cramped.
I never said that only females appreciate small things so if you find yourself offended perhaps you should stop inferring something that I never wrote.

Higher resolution can be detrimental in this form factor for someone with less than perfect eyesight. The fact that it's wider and narrow from top to bottom makes it more difficult to get the vertically aligned experience that humans are accustomed to and websites are primarily designed to deliver. Given that the OP wants to do school work, and papers are typically written on 8.5x11 pages, it will truncate most of the work that he or she wants to use it for.

Your response to slh28 regading the 13" MBP is a non-sequitor.

The 11" loses a *lot* for a minimal size difference to the 13" air. Stack them on top of each other. When my girlfriend did it in the store I think the difference was about an inch from left to righ and 2.5 inches from back to front so it takes almost the same amount of space in a backback or bag but the working area for one's hands and wrists along with the viewing area that matters most for anything other than media consumption is drastically reduced.

 

[Snowdog]

Get a Refurb Mini straight from Apple, like new, for about $500.
You just need to keep an eye on this until there are some Minis (it changes almost daily).
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/specialdeals/mac

That is how I would get my intro into Macs.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

If you're going for an 11'' Air, you might as well just get the 9.7'' iPad, IMO.

The 11" MBA and the iPad are entirely different products. The MBA runs OSX and desktop apps, the iPad does not. Powerwise, that is to say GPU, CPU, and RAM, the 11" MBA is nearly the same as the 13" MBA. There is no comparison power wise between the two. The 11" MBA smokes the iPad then in any form of desktop usage, and one CANNOT replace the other.

If I list ANY desktop app, then the iPad immediately becomes deficient.

Higher resolution can be detrimental in this form factor for someone with less than perfect eyesight. The fact that it's wider and narrow from top to bottom makes it more difficult to get the vertically aligned experience that humans are accustomed to and websites are primarily designed to deliver. Given that the OP wants to do school work, and papers are typically written on 8.5x11 pages, it will truncate most of the work that he or she wants to use it for.

The viewing angle relative to the self, as well as the tilting of the monitor would be the same. The only difference would be how high the top of the monitor goes. If using a 13" or an 11" the bottom of the MBA is still the bottom of the MBA. At some point you're gonna look down at the dock, and at some point you're gonna look to the top of the screen. Therefore the difference is the height.

Additionally, ergonomically speaking, it is better to look down at your monitors. In an ideal situation, the when keeping your head level your eyes should be at the top of the screen. That means, you should either be looking straight ahead, or looking down to view all content on a monitor (in other words, you should NEVER have to look up. If you have to look up for any reason, you haven't setup your monitor ergonomically.) There is no laptop in which you can do this natively. That's why laptop stands exist to raise the height of laptops up. This isn't fixed either with a 13" or 11" MBA. A 17" MBP might get close, if and only if you have a good book to put it on top of, and you're sitting at a desk. Most people's usage scenarios are nothing like this. So if you're discussing compromise, no matter what, ergonomically any laptop will have that issue. I've been hanging out in school libraries a lot recently, and although it's qualitative, I would say no one using any machine (PC/MAC, MBA, MBP, whatever) gets even close to an ergonomic setup on the go. It's even worse in a coffee shop where the (coffee) tables are low, sometimes lower than knee height with people using computers on them. On some of the tables it's better, but still far from ideal.

Finally, resolution. It's 16:9, 1366x768. I mentioned this in my last post. It's a higher resolution, and higher DPI then a 13" MBP. It loses all of 32 pixels vertically in comparison with the 13" MBP, which is far from significant. It is FINE for doing any type of desktop work. It is not deficient at all for writing. Anand from Anandtech.com commented on specifically how the 11" was great at churning out papers on the go, and it suffers from no deficiency in power (it's only one or two hundered MHz slower CPU wise, and has the same GPU, and the same RAM options, as well as the same SSD options.)

Your response to slh28 regading the 13" MBP is a non-sequitor.

The 11" loses a *lot* for a minimal size difference to the 13" air. Stack them on top of each other. When my girlfriend did it in the store I think the difference was about an inch from left to righ and 2.5 inches from back to front so it takes almost the same amount of space in a backback or bag but the working area for one's hands and wrists along with the viewing area that matters most for anything other than media consumption is drastically reduced.

I think what you're saying here would be the non sequitur. Either the loss of size is significant or it's not. Either the size loss vs the 13" is significant and therefore gains a benefit in the backpack or it doesn't, and either the size is significant and it loses ergonomics or it doesn't. You would have sounded more balanced if you would have given me at least the size/weight argument.

Usage, usage models and usage scenarios for everyone is going to be different. I've conceded that. Every post I've made, I have stated: THAT THIS IS OPINION. The OP should test both machines and test what is right for him. I've also said every one of these posts, THAT BOTH THE 11" AND 13" ARE CAPABLE MACHINES, AND THAT EITHER WOULD BE EXCELLENT. Does that help make my position more clear, or are you going to continue having a debate with me? I've stated that the 13" is fine, BUT I PREFER THE TRADEOFF OF A SMALLER MACHINE.

Here are direct quotes of me stating that in both of my previous posts!:

Well it's give a take. 2 hours of battery life for 2" of size off, smaller size/weight. I personally opt for the size/weight trade, the 11" already has plenty of battery life for me. I can see why people would pick it the other way around. I don't think you can lose either way.

If it's not fine for you and your purposes, I can see that. But that is an opinion, not an objective fact, as like I say, the resolution on the 11" is greater than a machine that many people use as their daily/only computer. Additionally, not being that "much bulkier or harder to carry around" is also an opinion. My goals with a laptop is all about size, weight, and portability. With those requirements it's hard to recommend something larger.

..........

I gave my suggestion based upon (of course) my opinion. Is the 13" better for the OP vs the 11"? Perhaps, but that isn't something either you or I can comment on, only the OP knows his requirements. At this point so far, he's basically only stated that he has $1k, and wants to buy 2 Macs, but is currently only really capable at purchasing one.

I placed things into all caps, so perhaps things that I thought were obvious earlier, will be more obvious this time. Are we done here? Can the OP buy his machine based upon how he feels about our recommendations now?

 

[_brew]

you keep comparing a MacBook Pro to the 11" Air whereas slh28 and myself are recommending a 13" MacBook Air. That's why your comments about the MacBookPro are a non-sequitor.

The size difference between the 11" Air compared to the 13" Air is negligible.
The size difference between the 13" Air compared to the 13" Pro is considerable and that's why neither slh28 nor myself have recommended it.

I don't care about your ergonomics rant because it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about when I'm discussing the limitations of the 11" screen. The size of the MacBook Air 13" screen is the same size as the MacBook Pro 13" screen, but it has a higher resolution. The screen size of the 11" air is 16:9 and about the size of a sheet of paper folded in half. It's a horrible recommendation for school work and extremely difficult to browse the web without having to scroll both vertically and horizontally. The only reason to recommend the 11" is price and if you have some extreme limitations on where you can carry it.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

you keep comparing a MacBook Pro to the 11" Air whereas slh28 and myself are recommending a 13" MacBook Air. That's why your comments about the MacBookPro are a non-sequitor.

The size difference between the 11" Air compared to the 13" Air is negligible.
The size difference between the 13" Air compared to the 13" Pro is considerable and that's why neither slh28 nor myself have recommended it.

This is not a non sequitor. This is a relevant comparison. Why is comparing the monitor of two laptop machines not comparable? It is directly comparable. We could easily be recommending a 13" MBP, and many people do, AND many people use it as their ONLY machine. That is not up for debate, I did it for a year, tons of college students are using 13" MBP's at 1280x800 resolution (this includes Macbooks made for the past 6 years, that I still see TONS of people using.) It follows completely. If the resolution on a 13" MBP which is LOWER than that of an 11" MBA is sufficient, how can you say the 11" MBA is deficient? That is the point I was making... twice.

Let's rephrase it again. IS or IS NOT the 13" MBP good enough for writing documents on? It either is or it isn't. I would say it is, I used one as my only machine for a year, and wrote monthly newsletters and did heavy editing in Photoshop. The resolution was fine. Now lets move to the 11" MBA, it has a HIGHER resolution, it therefore by deductive logic is ALSO sufficient.

I don't care about your ergonomics rant because it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about when I'm discussing the limitations of the 11" screen. The size of the MacBook Air 13" screen is the same size as the MacBook Pro 13" screen, but it has a higher resolution. The screen size of the 11" air is 16:9 and about the size of a sheet of paper folded in half. It's a horrible recommendation for school work and extremely difficult to browse the web without having to scroll both vertically and horizontally. The only reason to recommend the 11" is price and if you have some extreme limitations on where you can carry it.

You see, comparison to the 13" MBP is relevant, now you're doing it....

Scrolling vertically and horizontally in a webpage means you're doing it wrong. The 11" MBA, once again has a 1366 resolution sideways. Most websites are only 1024 pixels wide or are percentage based (variable.) The only way you would scroll sideways is if you increased the size of everything on the screen. That isn't the fault of the device, that has to do with the way you choose to use it. It wasn't designed that way.

Again, comparing it to the 13" MBP is relevant here, webpage viewing and typing on a 13" MBP is FINE for both webpage viewing AND typing. The 11" MBA has A HIGHER RESOLUTION. It is also through deductive logical reasoning FINE for those tasks. If you have to scroll sideways, you're doing it wrong. Office has a zoom tool, use it! You can make a document fit perfectly in the screen. Just click View => Zoom => Page Width... done! Perfectly uses the horizontal space, as the system was intended.


If you want to talk about how the DPI is too dense for you to see webpages or type when viewed the way the 11" MBA was designed to be viewed, that's an entirely different discussion. But as I've now said for (I think) the third time, the resolution is MORE THAN SUFFICIENT for writing, as it exceeds other products that are used FOR THE EXACT SAME THING.

 

[_brew]

The reason why the 11" screen is deficient for doing extended writing projects is because it's roughly the size of a piece of paper folded in half. The fact that is has a higher resolution than a 13" macbook pro screen makes the problem even worse for those with poorer than excellent eyesight because the font is smaller than either of the 13" MacBooks so those users have to enlarge the font thereby undermining the fact that the 11" has a higher resolution than the 13" macbook pro.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

The reason why the 11" screen is deficient for doing extended writing projects is because it's roughly the size of a piece of paper folded in half. The fact that is has a higher resolution than a 13" macbook pro screen makes the problem even worse for those with poorer than excellent eyesight because the font is smaller than either of the 13" MacBooks so those users have to enlarge the font thereby undermining the fact that the 11" has a higher resolution than the 13" macbook pro.

Ah, look at that, I directly refuted your argument, and the last sentence in my previous post just covered what you are now putting out as your main argument (you mentioned it before, but it wasn't your main point.)

If the DPI is an issue for the user, hey, I can't do anything about that. But to say it's necessary for all people all the time isn't true. This goes back to what I said earlier. This is an opinion, this has to do with the needs of the buyer, and has nothing to do with the capabilities of the MBA. I mentioned this in my earlier arguments that this is all usage based, and is at the opinion and digression of the buyer.

The DPI for the 11" MBA is fine for me, as well as others whom have purchased it and are happy with it. It isn't for you. Both of these conclusions are fine. Now, are we done here?

 

[_brew]

Anand from Anandtech.com commented on specifically how the 11" was great at churning out papers on the go, and it suffers from no deficiency in power

Here's what Anand actually said about the topic:

I've traditionally always bought the 11-inch MacBook Air with the thought that I'd carry it when I didn't need to lug around my MacBook Pro. I seemed to be fooling myself however as over 90% of the time I'd end up with the MacBook Pro. The 11-inch Air was relegated to typewriter duty when I needed a change of scenery while writing at home. It's a great writer's companion, but if I couldn't have more than one system I'd have to opt for its bigger brother.

When I first reviewed the redesigned 13-inch MacBook Air I wrote that it felt more like a normal notebook, while the 11 was something a bit more unique. Perhaps I was more infatuated with the new 11 at the time, because these days I'm more drawn to the 13-inch MacBook Air as the notebook to have if you can only have one.

You get a 23.5% increase in screen resolution on a display that's just easier to look at. While 1440 x 900 is a bit much on a 15-inch MacBook Pro, I'd say it's near perfect on the 13-inch Air.

-- http://www.anandtech.com/show/6063/macbook-air-13inch-mid-2012-review

 

[UnknownSouljer]

Here's what Anand actually said about the topic:

-- http://www.anandtech.com/show/6063/macbook-air-13inch-mid-2012-review

I've read that entire review as well as his 2011 review. Recently even. Two things.

1st: Anand is a person, the things you're quoting are based upon his usage and how they fit into his life. In other words, they are his opinions.

2nd: You're only quoting things that benefit your argument. On balance, here are some quotes from the exact same article that support what I'm saying.

The 11-inch MacBook Air is a great option for those who want the portability of a tablet but find themselves wanting to attach a keyboard to it most of the time. The 11.6-inch display boasts the highest pixel density of all of Apple's non-retina displays at 1366 x 768, but it's still quite usable. You don't make any sacrifices on keyboard size or key spacing (it's identical to the 13-inch model for the majority of the keys), nor do you have to give up any performance either. Apple offers all of the same CPU, memory and storage upgrades across both MacBook Airs. And with no discrete GPU, thermal throttling isn't really a problem either in the 11-inch chassis. With Thunderbolt, the 11-inch MacBook Air can actually give you the best of both worlds: an incredibly portable computer when you're on the go, and enough to act as your desktop when docked to a Thunderbolt Display.

In its role as a proponent of simplicity, Apple has reduced the decision between what Air to get down to screen size, resolution and battery life (the 13-inch chassis houses a much larger battery). If you like having more of all of those things, the 13-inch Air is for you. If carrying anything larger than a tablet upsets you, buy the 11.

My bolding, note how he states the only differences between the two is: "screen size, resolution and battery life." These three things are mentioned earlier in this thread, and I said much earlier that what works better for you, and what tradeoffs are acceptable to you are a matter of opinion.


And on the Final remarks page:

Even without a new display however, the MacBook Air continues to be one of the best executed ultraportables on the market today. If you're after absolute portability, the 11-inch model is great. If you want a Pro replacement and can get away without four cores and a discrete GPU, the 13 gets the job done. I have no issues recommending either system.

OPINIONS. Look Anand has them too! Surprise!

All of his statements are PROS AND CONS. Which is what I've been saying from the beginning. If the 13" better supports your usage requirements, great!!!! If the 11" is better for you like it is for me, FINE! I have NO IDEA why you keep trying to argue opinions.

------------------------

Additionally re-read what Anand is saying in each of the quotes you brought up.

The 11-inch Air was relegated to typewriter duty when I needed a change of scenery while writing at home. It's a great writer's companion, but if I couldn't have more than one system I'd have to opt for its bigger brother.

Here he is stating that if you only have ONE system that the 13" would be a better choice. The OP clearly has more than one system, he has a PC. Anand isn't saying "more than one laptop" he's saying "more than one system". Therefore any of us whom have a second system would more than likely benefit from the 11". Read the context, Anand is talking about replacing all of your systems with a single computer. If that's your usage case, then his suggestion is that the 13" is better suited for the case of having only 1 system. In that usage case I would agree, but that isn't the case with the OP.
However like I quoted earlier, Anand himself also said that the 11" is the best of both worlds if you also have a Thunderbolt display. Maximum portability married with power that can be attached to a full size display when you're at home. Here again is the direct quote, if you don't want to scroll up...

With Thunderbolt, the 11-inch MacBook Air can actually give you the best of both worlds: an incredibly portable computer when you're on the go, and enough to act as your desktop when docked to a Thunderbolt Display.

If you can afford an 11" and a Thunderbolt display, I would personally recommend that setup over a 13" even if you have no other systems.

Secondly, in that quote that you quoted yourself, is the exact statement I was talking about. He says that the 11" is more than good enough for what? Document writing, one of the things you were spending so much time arguing with me about. He states clearly that it works well in that task.

The 11-inch Air was relegated to typewriter duty when I needed a change of scenery while writing at home. It's a great writer's companion...

 

[slh28]

FFS guys, the best thing for the OP would be to walk into an Apple store and play around with both the 11in and 13in MBA. That's what I did, and my conclusion was that the 13in still felt light, thin and portable enough, and that I preferred the larger screen, more pixels and just felt better ergonomically than the 11in. But that's only my preference, if portability is at the top of your list and you're willing to sacrifice screen real estate and some pixels then that's ok too.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

FFS guys, the best thing for the OP would be to walk into an Apple store and play around with both the 11in and 13in MBA. That's what I did, and my conclusion was that the 13in still felt light, thin and portable enough, and that I preferred the larger screen, more pixels and just felt better ergonomically than the 11in. But that's only my preference, if portability is at the top of your list and you're willing to sacrifice screen real estate and some pixels then that's ok too.

Yes, finally someone that gets it. I've said the same thing since Terfpen asked me about it at the beginning of this thread. I 100% agree with you.

 

[pumpkin_carver]

Well, apparently my financial aid refund is going to be a lot shorter than what I thought it was going to be so I will not be getting a mac at all. I have to upgrade my windows machine as best as I can for the time being. Maybe next quarter I will have enough money to get one.