wonderfield
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The other reviews are neither particularly positive nor particularly negative.
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Surface Pro Anticipation
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Agreed. Varied reviews from different view points. Anand gets more in depth; the others bring the value of a more casual view point. Only the fool reads a single outlet or view point type.
Most reviewers don't know a thing about computers, and that particularly includes the geezers at WSJ and other newspapers. The kids at Verge know a bit more (they gave it a good score, btw) but they're also stupidly subjective (like Topolsky grading down the Nexus 4 because he knocked it off his table and it broke - the same way an iPhone does except he's never knocked his iPhone off a table therefore it doesn't get scored down) and run completely uneven tests between devices. Engadget doesn't even use the same battery test settings in all of their reviews.
Anand and Mobiletechreview are by far the most competent technology reviewers out there.
If a person is just going to watch video all day and night, they're probably not going to find the Surface Pro appealing due to price. They'll just buy an Ipad or Android tablet.
Yeah but the idea is that you'd replace your iPad and Air (or TP and Zen) with this single device. Most of the time I care about its laptop performance more than its tablet performance, but occasionally I'll be on a plane or in a lounge without an outlet nearby and that's when I'd really like the 6 hour movie watching tablet, without having to bring another tablet with me.
rudy
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Well the bigger question is does this method of testing rank devices accordingly. Any test is obviously designed to push it and cannot perfectly recreate real world usage. This just lets you know that surface pro ranks on the low end for portable device battery time.
I'd also like one device to replace them all..hopefully with Haswell.
Tests should reflect the usage of a device. I don't have issues with a video looping test, but I do have issues when that is the only test used to evaluate the battery life. Engadget and Ars Technica only used the video looping test.
Ars Technica is supposed to be a very technical site. They have a ton on information on scaling because of the 1080p screen, but apparently could only test the battery with a video loop.
At least Anandtech performed other battery tests. A lot of users will want to know about battery life when used as a business/office device.
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I don't agree at all, no 10" device is going to replace my 7" tablet. The two sizes are just too different and serve two different purposes. 10" isn't portable enough to take everywhere without a second thought, and 10" is a minimum required for actual productivity.
heatlesssun
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I agree, but if you are going to use the 10" tablet you may not need the 7" device as well so it could be one less thing to carry.
rudy
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Well this is pretty ridiculous if you think about it. So basically you are saying everyone has to own like 10 devices because no devices that is 3 inches different is going to fill a niche right. But most people aren't like that, they are willing to make some sacrifices to simplify their life and save money.
7 inches is hardly worth hundred of dollars over just using bigger phone is the way I see it. But then again I am of the thought that a tablet in general is useless if you cant replace a laptop with it.
I guess it is sufficient to say that something like surface is not for someone like you.
heatlesssun
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Ars is generally not very positive about much Microsoft. I'd say the reviews overall are positive with the major exception of battery life.
Anand's biggest complaints were about the OS and battery life. The device itself and the underlying hardware is quite nice (minus the battery life), but he mentioned that Win8 itself is still buggy and needs work. He previously attributed that quirkiness and buggy nature to the Surface RT's poor performing Tegra 3 + eMMC NAND, but some problems still show themselves with the Surface Pro.
Ars isn't anti-MS or pro-Apple, either. The problem is that you're the one that's a fanboy and you're painting everyone else with the "anti-MS" brush.
The purpose of a looping video is that it is the one test that is a constant across all devices. The same MP4 video will play on everything and this way you can generate consistent results.
wonderfield
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Well not entirely consistent. For instance they all set 50% or w/e brightness, but they're not measuring nits, just potential operating system brightness. 50% on a Transformer Prime is noticeably brighter than 50% on a Surface RT or other any tablet, so to have an accurate measure of viewability/performance, you'd have to use like 35% TP vs. 50% RT or whatever the equivalent brightness is.
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A lot of this is fluff or stuff we already know, but some interesting points:
I believe normal capacitive tablet latency is 50ms+ and often closer to 100. Have to go try it out to see if it feels as fast as he says, though.
On scaling:
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heatlesssun
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I really hope this solution isn't too far away, this has been needed for a long time now and as dense displays become more common in Windows tablets it is imperative to fix this problem.
The scaling issue isn't going to get fixed with any software update. It's not an MS issue per se, but rather an issue with third-party software and how that software interacts with the MS-provided scaling options. For example, MS offers 125%, 150%, and so on, scaling. Whatever scaling is done at the OS level is limited to the OS itself and not the applications running unless those applications have compatibility for MS's fractional scaling. A lot of programs don't and as a result won't behave well with DPI scaling. Some programs will become unusable as soon as you apply any sort of scaling and that's a big problem for the Windows legacy landscape. That's why when I went out looking for a laptop I made sure that my software could run on it without any DPI issues. I had to settle for 1366x768 native resolution on a ThinkPad X220.
The other problem people were having, and this is mentioned in the AMAA, is that the Surface products can't yet scale resolutions independently of each other. When you plug in a monitor that you want to run at native resolution (duh), you will have to set the scaling to 100% thus rendering your Surface display utterly useless for anything but video.
I'm not sure how much this has to do with AMD and nVidia's reluctance to release working multi-monitor driver updates for Win8, but it could certainly be something that's holding it back. Win8's multi-monitor support has been lacking since the beta stages and it's taken far too long for Microsoft to improve it. So it really wouldn't surprise me if AMD and nVidia are just waiting for MS rather than MS is waiting for AMD and nVidia.
The DPI scaling issue won't be fixed unless the entirety of Windows software is rewritten to take advantage of MS's scaling. That's just not going to happen, though. The more sensible approach here is the one Apple took with doubling up the pixel count. In devices that don't offer double pixels the display size matches the resolution so it can avoid the issue of scaling - 1280 on the 11" MacBook Air, for example. Either MS demands that developers who make Metro apps allow for fractional DPI scaling and cover all of the settings or MS just ends up doubling up the pixel count. I think the latter is a far more sensible approach, frankly. With that you need significantly more powerful GPUs, so the cheapo Tegra 3 and even Intel Ivy wouldn't do it. Take a look at the performance issues the MacBook Pro 13" has been having with respect to flickering and utterly abysmal gaming performance and that's with a 35W CPU.
The other problem people were having, and this is mentioned in the AMAA, is that the Surface products can't yet scale resolutions independently of each other. When you plug in a monitor that you want to run at native resolution (duh), you will have to set the scaling to 100% thus rendering your Surface display utterly useless for anything but video.
I'm not sure how much this has to do with AMD and nVidia's reluctance to release working multi-monitor driver updates for Win8, but it could certainly be something that's holding it back. Win8's multi-monitor support has been lacking since the beta stages and it's taken far too long for Microsoft to improve it. So it really wouldn't surprise me if AMD and nVidia are just waiting for MS rather than MS is waiting for AMD and nVidia.
The DPI scaling issue won't be fixed unless the entirety of Windows software is rewritten to take advantage of MS's scaling. That's just not going to happen, though. The more sensible approach here is the one Apple took with doubling up the pixel count. In devices that don't offer double pixels the display size matches the resolution so it can avoid the issue of scaling - 1280 on the 11" MacBook Air, for example. Either MS demands that developers who make Metro apps allow for fractional DPI scaling and cover all of the settings or MS just ends up doubling up the pixel count. I think the latter is a far more sensible approach, frankly. With that you need significantly more powerful GPUs, so the cheapo Tegra 3 and even Intel Ivy wouldn't do it. Take a look at the performance issues the MacBook Pro 13" has been having with respect to flickering and utterly abysmal gaming performance and that's with a 35W CPU.
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heatlesssun
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I don't disagree with that you're saying but Microsoft is claiming to be doing something about the scaling issue.
Whatever it is, it's not going to fix the DPI problems that users face with web browsing and 3rd party applications.
I imagine that they're fixing the independent DPI scaling issue with a soon-to-be-released software update. The problem of sharing the DPI scaling between the Surface and an external monitor. That can totally be fixed. The bigger issue that is DPI scaling as a whole unfortunately can not.
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Just to clarify, this isn't a new issue at all. It's been around for as long as we've had monitors at equal diagonal screen sizes but varying pixel density and resolutions. The degree that they varied was minimal so the fractional bumps were justifiable as you really weren't going to run into any problems (for the most part). But with the huge variety of resolutions and display sizes in mobile devices that we have today, a fractional approach is an absolute nightmare for a developer and Microsoft both. They really need to update this and just double a perceived standard every X amount of years, but that also requires getting rid of the legacy baggage.
more tidbits!
For the web developers, they're well aware of the problems of finding the perfect layout for their site that can fit all form factors, resolutions and screen sizes. Opting to go with your main bar on the left might sound like a neat idea, but then for vertical viewing it's just wasted space taking away from the body. If you center it at the top then you'll inevitable get blank space on the left and right (see Tomshardware). Positioning elements via CSS by X amount of pixels off the origin doesn't work for all devices, but neither does doing it by %'s. It's a freakin' nightmare. The solution to all of these problems is more work and more coding, using javascript to detect if it's a mobile browser and trying to wing it from there
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Actually I'm exactly the target market for one and I'd buy one if I hadn't seen the Lenovo Helix specs. The thing is that there is no such thing as a no compromise device. There are two different targets now with Windows 8 "hybrid" devices:
*Those that want a tablet first and ultrabook second.
*Those that want an ultrabook first and tablet second.
The Surface is the first, it's for those that want to do tablet things mostly BUT have the option to go full on ultrabook mode if necessary with a few compromises still (ports/keyboard). It's ONLY for that market, a market which previously never really existed. That's why it's such a big deal, a tablet that has full x86 capability but now in a smaller form factor. However if you really want an ultrabook that will sometimes become an unwieldy tablet then there are other devices that go the opposite direction (lenovo yoga 13). They don't break away from their keyboard but can be flipped into a large tablet.
None of those fit the already existing consumption market where the ipad and nexus 7 for example reign supreme. Neither is a good replacement for either due to battery life, weight, etc. They are only for those that need that extra bit for productivity.
So if you think you might want a Surface Pro you need to ask yourself, will you be spending more time as a tablet or an ultrabook, and will you just be consuming content mostly or trying to get real work done efficiently? Then buy accordingly. That's where the Lenovo Helix comes in, it's the first device that looks to be perfect at both. It's a great tablet AND a great ultrabook.
All I want is something with the same screen, weight and form factor as the iPad 3/4 but running on x86. Why is it that we have tiny x86 phones already but still no thin 4:3 tablet? I don't even care about OS, I just want the hardware. (It's getting Linux regardless of what it ships with.) I don't care about keyboard cases, docks or "convertible ultrabooks" I just want a damn tablet that I can run VMs on. Where should I be looking if not the Surface Pro?
heatlesssun
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Right now there just aren't any x86 4:3 tablets and I'm sure if there will ever be any any time soon. As for weight and size of the iPad in x86 form, that's the purpose of Clover Trail devices. Of course they are no where near the level of performance of Core devices but they also have much better battery life and allow for fanless designs.
With x86 tablets there's always going to be a tradeoff among weight, performance and battery life. Until Bay Trail Atoms come out at the end of the year the performance tradeoff for iPad like weight and battery life is too much for many.
Honestly man, tech just isn't there yet. It's closer than ever with haswell, but that isn't out yet. I mean think of what you're asking, a full PC WITH high performance in iPad size. That's not quite reasonable yet. A full PC with okay performance? Well the Acer W510 is amazing for its size. It's thinner AND lighter than the iPad 4, with full x86 ability AND long battery life. So as I said, we're close. Just not there yet.
http://www.phonearena.com/phones/compare/Acer-Iconia-W510,Apple-iPad-4/phones/7530,7547
As for 4:3, blame it all on the race to HD and 16:9 winning.
Surface Pro may get battery extending cover.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2027486/microsoft-surface-pro-may-get-battery-extending-cover.html
I wonder how much is that going to be. The current state of tablet keyboards is the same as when HDMI cables were $50 just 4-5 years ago. They want over a $100 for keyboard, Lenovo wants about the same for theirs and there is no rhyme or reason to why. I have a cherry blue switched, macro keyed, USB hubbed LED back lit mechanical keyboard and it cost me less than those cheap ass plastic tablet covers that second as a mobile keyboard.... Anyway, with a battery in there, I guess the Surface pro cover is going to be in the $200-$250 range, what a cheap android tablet would cost you basically. Ridiculous.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2027486/microsoft-surface-pro-may-get-battery-extending-cover.html
I wonder how much is that going to be. The current state of tablet keyboards is the same as when HDMI cables were $50 just 4-5 years ago. They want over a $100 for keyboard, Lenovo wants about the same for theirs and there is no rhyme or reason to why. I have a cherry blue switched, macro keyed, USB hubbed LED back lit mechanical keyboard and it cost me less than those cheap ass plastic tablet covers that second as a mobile keyboard.... Anyway, with a battery in there, I guess the Surface pro cover is going to be in the $200-$250 range, what a cheap android tablet would cost you basically. Ridiculous.
This is a pretty cool accessory if you need more ports on an ultrabook or win8 tablet. A bit pricey but it makes the Surface Pro less of a compromise for the times you might need more ports. One of the things I wish the Pro had was one more USB port at least. Credit to Paul Thurrot for mentioning it.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B008N06I2I
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B008N06I2I
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rudy
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The reason is because once they hook you on the device, if you need the keyboard you will pay, and most people are going to be comparing a keyboard to buying a whole laptop. And BTW in Brick and Mortar stores HDMI cables are still 50$
The cover is actually pretty awesome, think about it you are getting a cover AND a full keyboard in one instead of packing a separate bag for the keyboard and having to use bluetooth. Who do you know with an iPad or similar android tablet that carts around a keyboard the same size as the screen? It's typically smaller and more cramped, you have to keep it charged or plug it in via a cable, it's just unwieldy. That's the extra benefit of the Surface keyboards, it's essentially integrated and full size('ish).
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The Logitech Ultrathin is the same size as the iPad...very easy to type on...has it's own battery and charges via a USB cable. Its battery lasts quite a while, too.
Everyone I work with also carries the Apple BT keyboard around with their iPad. I think most people who use their tablet for productivity purposes carry or have easy access to a hardware keyboard most of the time. I like that a hardware keyboard was a consideration right from the start with the Surface, rather than an afterthought.
The iPad was designed from the ground up for touch screen use, so it makes perfect sense that a keyboard would be an add-on for people that want them.
The surface was not designed from the ground up for touch screen...in fact, you can't do much productive work on it without a keyboard. Yet, this is $130 add-on for the keyboard that most will want to use. Seems dumb to me.
rudy
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The hardware keyboard for apple is not an after thought, its actually purposely dismissed it is anti to apples business model, think about it, apple products have a lack of software support for OSX, but they are doing good for software support in iOS, if apple shipped iPads with keyboard or made them anything like convertibles it would essentailly mean the iPad replaces their laptops a cheaper device with more software support. So apple purposely makes the ipad lack these simple features to force people in their ecosystem to keep buying laptops. And the same can be said for their top down strategy, if they made a convertible tablet it would eat into iPad sales. Right now do to their unique customer base the customers dont ask questions they just buy all the devices. Then after market companies come up with clumsy keyboard solutions.
Apple doesn't have an OS right now that would be particularly effective on a convertible tablet. The hardware keyboard is great when you need it, but never necessary for anything. The same can't be said for the Surface Pro at this point in time.
I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make though. iOS on a Macbook would be stupid, and OS X on the iPad would be unusable. There's enough differentiation between them that it makes sense for a lot of users to have both a Mac and an iOS device, since they do different things. Apple doesn't have to worry that much about the iPad cannibalizing sales of their Mac line, except for users at the very bottom end of the spectrum who are actually better served by the iPad anyway.
How much are people paying for a good full size portable keyboard add-on AND a cover? That Logitech one comes close and is pretty impressive, and is almost as expensive as the touch cover but has it's own baggage (needs to be charged, heavier, no trackpad, etc).
These things are apples and oranges, the surface is perfectly fine without a keyboard unless you actually want to be productive in the desktop, which is completely optional. It's just choice.
wonderfield
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The Type Cover and Touch Covers aren't cases. They're covers. Why is what people pay for iPad cases relevant?
rudy
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Of course they never updated their OS to do such because they want to sell you more devices. Yes an iOS device + a mac makes sense but 2 iOS devices and a mac does not, except now because apple has no convergent device on purpose which forces people to buy multiple devices.
heatlesssun
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There's a lot of productive activities that one can do with a Windows 8 tablet without a keyboard than I think many realize, especially one with a pen digitizer like the Surface Pro. Here's an example of something very productive in the educational area that can't be achieved easily even with a keyboard and mouse and not nearly as easily done with iOS or the vast bulk of Android devices. If there is something like this possible on those platforms I'd love to see how it works. On the left is a Windows Store scientific calculator app, on the right the desktop version of OneNote 2013. The algebra problems can be worked using the digital pen in OneNote and then verified using the calculator.
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Yes, why not just use a pen and paper but for a student working remotely or trying to sift through notes or simply trying to share information there's a great deal of power in something like this. And just think how much the trees might appreciate this. I think part of the problem with Windows 8 especially on tablets is that they allow people to do things and in ways they've never thought of before because the technology isn't well understood.
But beyond this example working in Word and Excel does work reasonably well with touch, certainly small edits, capturing information on the spot so as not to forget, annotating and markup, all of these activities are easily done without a keyboard and mouse.
I really think that Windows tablets could have a big impact in the business and educational worlds but the devices do need to get better and cheaper. Hopefully that's the track things are on as it is shame I think that useful and power technology isn't more widely deployed.
No, they just don't currently have the need to converge the two operating systems. The desire to have a single OS on all platforms seems to be a Microsoft thing at this moment. Even Google is still selling Android on phones and tablets and ChromeOS on its ultrabooks. I'm not sure there's as much market for a converged OS at this point in time as you seem to be implying. If it were that obvious, someone either would have done it already or Microsoft would be wiping the floor with their competitors. The market for a converged touch/physical input OS is still evolving and it remains to be seen if it's going to be the most effective way to unify devices.
Also, I think you are heavily underestimating the amount of work required to make a converged user experience. MS is the first to really try it (well, maybe KDE Plasma) and it's resulting in some growing pains. OS X and iOS are dissimilar enough that I'd appreciate it if the UIs stay different for the time being. As I said before, no one really wants a Macbook running iOS or an iPad (let alone an iPhone) running OS X.
I do exactly this on my iPad using a capacitive pen for input and Quasar to have multiple apps running in windows at the same time. I use it to build design mockups/sketches at the same time as I'm looking at a website or a PDF. Android can do this too, but you usually need a custom ROM in order to bake in a window manager. Windows 8 gets points for being the only mobile OS to support this out of the box though.