Surface Pro 3 (5/20/14)

The Anand review is somewhat like what I'd expect: like most other write-ups, it acknowledges that the Surface Pro 3 is good, but a definite compromise. It's great if you really want both a laptop and a tablet in one device, but you will be better off with a laptop if that's your primary intent, or a pure tablet if that's your thing.

The surprise to me is the performance. It's not shocking that the MacBook Air is far superior to the Pro 3 in battery life, but I was expecting the clock speed of the Pro 3's Core i5 to give it an overall edge, sometimes significantly so. Looks like the Air's faster GPU (and possibly other factors, like the PCIe drive) makes a big difference.
 
MacBook Air has an inferior display that's driving 2.4X less pixels, it lacks touch and precision pen and takes twice as long to charge so it' still inferior with the slight battery life gain.
 
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Yeah, the mediocre performance is surprising, especially considering how MS is selling this as an ultrabook replacement. It's not really an ultrabook replacement if it doesn't trade blows with the original ultrabook in performance/battery life.

Mostly though this just makes me more pissed off about the Broadwell/Cherry Trail delays. The killer x86 tablet is still at least another hardware generation away.
 
mi7chy said:
What benchmark are you looking at? Anandtech is showing the SP3 is up to about 4X faster.
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I don't see where the SP3 is 4x faster than the MacBook in any of the tests Anand performed. I do, however, see the MBA outperforming the SP3 in eight of the eleven benchmarks, though the margins are never particularly great.

Can you point out in exactly which test the Surface Pro 3 was four times faster?

CEpeep said:
Mostly though this just makes me more pissed off about the Broadwell/Cherry Trail delays. The killer x86 tablet is still at least another hardware generation away.
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Microsoft still has a ways to go on battery life, but I think there's nothing really underwhelming about its performance given its form factor.
 
Looks like the performance is about what I would expect. The MBA 13 overall is a bit faster and much better battery life but it's also almost 50% heavier than the SP3 WITH the Type Cover.
 
wonderfield said:
Microsoft still has a ways to go on battery life, but I think there's nothing really underwhelming about its performance given its form factor.
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I want better GPUs. If Apple can get the HD5000 in all SKUs of the Air, MS could have done it here. They could have trumped it and really rubbed Apple's nose in it by securing chips with Iris/Pro GPUs especially in the higher spec versions, but instead they wussed out and we got this. If nothing else, the i3 version could have been made thinner/lighter to compensate since it has a ULV part.

Intel needs to step up their game so the OEMs don't have to compromise like this. They need to go all-in on the ULV and sub-12W parts and stick to the rigid tick-tock schedule they've lined out.
 
mi7chy said:
MacBook Air has an inferior display that's driving 2.4X less pixels, it lacks touch and precision pen and takes twice as long to charge so it' still inferior with the slight battery life gain.
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It's pretty sad that I knew you'd start cherry-picking and lying when confronted with facts that painted the Surface Pro 3 as anything less than perfection.

Anand used similar resolutions across the bulk of tests and still saw the Air come out ahead. Also, how does an slightly shorter recharge time (a 13-inch MacBook Air recharges in roughly two hours, sorry to burst your bubble) make up for losing two-plus hours of active use? A fast recharge is cold comfort if you're nowhere near a wall outlet.

I think the Surface Pro 3 is a very nice machine, and I'd love to have one. But as Anand says, you are not getting the best of all worlds. You don't have to bend over backwards pretending otherwise in order to appreciate what you bought.
 
Anandtech flip flops between Macbook Air and iPad Air but it still applies that each is inferior and even combined they're inferior to a single SP3. Macbook Air has crappy pixelated resolution that you don't want to stare at all day, lacks touch and pen and weighs about half a pound or more. iPad Air is a midget in performance, lacks pen and is useless for running professional software. SP3 isn't perfect but it's a better integrated solution than trying to glue together a Macbook Pro, iPad Air, Adonit stylus and Intuos pad. Regardless of what Anandtech thinks the corporate world is over 90% Windows so they'll buy up the SP3, iPad toy will wither away like all the hospitals dumping them after realizing they're inadequate and Macs will still be relegated to a small niche group within the company.
 
CEpeep said:
I want better GPUs. If Apple can get the HD5000 in all SKUs of the Air, MS could have done it here. They could have trumped it and really rubbed Apple's nose in it by securing chips with Iris/Pro GPUs especially in the higher spec versions, but instead they wussed out and we got this. If nothing else, the i3 version could have been made thinner/lighter to compensate since it has a ULV part.

Intel needs to step up their game so the OEMs don't have to compromise like this. They need to go all-in on the ULV and sub-12W parts and stick to the rigid tick-tock schedule they've lined out.
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You aren't getting Iris/Pro in these form factors, that's just silly. Also the Pro 3 with the i7 has the HD5000.
 
Aurelius said:
The Anand review is somewhat like what I'd expect: like most other write-ups, it acknowledges that the Surface Pro 3 is good, but a definite compromise. It's great if you really want both a laptop and a tablet in one device, but you will be better off with a laptop if that's your primary intent, or a pure tablet if that's your thing.

The surprise to me is the performance. It's not shocking that the MacBook Air is far superior to the Pro 3 in battery life, but I was expecting the clock speed of the Pro 3's Core i5 to give it an overall edge, sometimes significantly so. Looks like the Air's faster GPU (and possibly other factors, like the PCIe drive) makes a big difference.
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Its mostly GPU related, seeing as the 4400 is half of a 5000.

Plus software thermal limitations. I'm pretty sure that MS limited the turbo on these in order to keep power usage and TDP down.
 
mi7chy said:
Anandtech flip flops between Macbook Air and iPad Air
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With clearly-labeled graphs, no less.

mi7chy said:
SP3 isn't perfect but it's a better integrated solution than trying to glue together a Macbook Pro, iPad Air, Adonit stylus and Intuos pad.
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Not exactly the most compelling of endorsements.

In my opinion, the Surface Pro really stands on its own without it needing to be incessantly praised. The first-generation model was good. I know — I bought, and still own, and still use one. The second-generation was better. The third, I think really upsets a lot of things we know about what products like this can be, in a lot of good ways. It's a really well-executed product, as well-executed if not more so than the original iPad.

Suffice it to say it doesn't need the hamfisted defense you offer for it whenever someone makes legitimate criticisms of it. You admit that it's imperfect device yet still fly off the pan any time anyone dares compare it to competing products, of which the MacBook Air is a member.

In Anand's benchmarks, the MacBook was predominantly faster. Deal with it.
 
He's an admitted Apple-only shill. It's silly comparing an ultrabook to a brick with lower resolution that requires additional companion devices. Anandtech shows the performance is comparable so deal with it.
 
Just got mine yesterday, and I like it - maybe not the fastest on the planet, but runs and does what I am wanting to do.
 
Been using it unplugged since about 4am this morning and it's at 10% warning at 12 noon. Not bad for how thin and light it is.
 
mi7chy said:
Not bad for how thin and light it is.
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Just got our first SP3 in at work for testing before we start deploying them and it's a bigger difference over the SP2 than I expected. The screen size and aspect ratio is perfect, IMO. They've pretty much reached the point where they couldn't make it any thinner and still put miniDP and full size USB ports on it. Way lighter than the SP2 and still feels solid.

With the new screen size, it also has the great side effect of the scaling working much better on a second monitor (23"-24" 1080p). With the SP2, either everything is too big on the second monitor with the scaling "right" on the tablet display or the scaling is "right" on the external display with everything too small on the tablet. With the SP3, everything is just "right" on both.
 
Parja said:
Just got our first SP3 in at work for testing before we start deploying them and it's a bigger difference over the SP2 than I expected. The screen size and aspect ratio is perfect, IMO. They've pretty much reached the point where they couldn't make it any thinner and still put miniDP and full size USB ports on it. Way lighter than the SP2 and still feels solid.

With the new screen size, it also has the great side effect of the scaling working much better on a second monitor (23"-24" 1080p). With the SP2, either everything is too big on the second monitor with the scaling "right" on the tablet display or the scaling is "right" on the external display with everything too small on the tablet. With the SP3, everything is just "right" on both.
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How many SP3 units is your company looking to deploy? What config did you go with? What type of user rates a Surface Pro? Do they like using one? I bought the i5/8GB/256GB model for personal use. MS is supposed to be providing my company with an official demo in July. I'm working on trying to build a business case to use the docking station/type cover combo with the SP3 as an alternative to a Lenovo T440 which is our standard issue laptop at work.
 
bpmurrGT said:
How many SP3 units is your company looking to deploy? What config did you go with? What type of user rates a Surface Pro? Do they like using one? I bought the i5/8GB/256GB model for personal use. MS is supposed to be providing my company with an official demo in July. I'm working on trying to build a business case to use the docking station/type cover combo with the SP3 as an alternative to a Lenovo T440 which is our standard issue laptop at work.
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We're not a huge company...about 500 employees nationwide. We've deployed about 30 SP2s so far and will probably be adding about that many more SP3s now. Pretty much all of our sales and upper management users will be getting them as a replacement for the Windows laptops and iPad combinations many of them use now as well as a few other users who have justified the need.

For our users, the "middle of the road" i5/4GB/128GB config works fine. None of these guys are doing anything all that resource intensive.

We started demoing them to some of our people early this year and interest in them took off like wildfire. Everyone wants one now.

The combination of full Windows capability, portability, and ability to dock them for office use (well, soon at least for the SP3), all in one device made it a no-brainer for us. ~$1500 for the tablet/keyboard/dock combination to fully replace the functionality of a ~$1000 Windows laptop and ~$600 iPad in one device that they can easily take everywhere with them was an easy sell.
 
SP3 charges pretty quick. 2 hour 40 minute plugged in and it's at 98% while being used. With it turned off I'm guessing probably closer to 2 hours.

Parja, do your folks use phone hotspot or MIFI for connectivity on the road?
 
If the dock proves to be very capable this thing could technically replace your Desktop, Laptop and Tablet (if required). Plus you don't need to worry about remote data access if your important files are always stored locally essentially removing quite a bit of security holes.
 
mi7chy said:
Parja, do your folks use phone hotspot or MIFI for connectivity on the road?
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Yup, phone hotspot. Everybody's got it enabled on their work phones, so they just fire that up and they're ready to rock.
 
On my sp3 I find that I have to turn the brightness almost all the way up to match my iPad Air, and at max brightness the air is definitely brighter. And with brightness up on the sp3, the battery drains at a noticeable pace. But overall, I like the sp3 a lot. Still debating whether it will replace my air.
 
I'm not sure you're in the right forum if you have to debate between a full Windows pc and an ipad air because the Windows pc doesn't get quite as bright...
 
Kueller said:
I'm not sure you're in the right forum if you have to debate between a full Windows pc and an ipad air because the Windows pc doesn't get quite as bright...
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What? Using the device outside in sunlight is a legitimate use case. I haven't used a SP3 outside yet, but our Surface Pro 2s are mediocre at best in direct sunlight, and unusable if you're not at the right angle or you have glare. None of our recent iPads have any issue performing in the same circumstances. Do you mean to imply you are in the wrong forum if you leave your office and need to be productive out in the field? Sitting in an office all day under fluorescent lights isn't even the intended use case for the SP3, and it's certainly not [H]ard.
 
CEpeep said:
What? Using the device outside in sunlight is a legitimate use case. I haven't used a SP3 outside yet, but our Surface Pro 2s are mediocre at best in direct sunlight, and unusable if you're not at the right angle or you have glare. None of our recent iPads have any issue performing in the same circumstances. Do you mean to imply you are in the wrong forum if you leave your office and need to be productive out in the field? Sitting in an office all day under fluorescent lights isn't even the intended use case for the SP3, and it's certainly not [H]ard.
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Certainly outdoor use is a valid consideration and brightness does help but there are other issues. One thing I did notice in playing with the SP3 at Best Buy the other day is that the screen seemed to reflect little light, and that's huge factor in outdoor and even indoor usability.
 
My iPad is pretty much unreadable in direct sunlight, even at full backlight. You pretty much need e-ink for that use case.
 
Bobalias_LeShay said:
My iPad is pretty much unreadable in direct sunlight, even at full backlight. You pretty much need e-ink for that use case.
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Which model? We have removed our iPad 2s and 3s from field kits for the poor outdoor performance and replaced them with Airs. The display is usable even in direct sunlight when surrounded by glare/reflections from water. The only Windows tablets we've evaluated that are comparable are "ruggedized" computers designed for outdoor use which are too heavy and expensive for our use cases. We just want commodity hardware that works outside. I'm looking forward to giving a SP3 some serious outdoor evaluation time, it sounds like they've stepped up the display in multiple factors.
 
CEpeep said:
Which model? We have removed our iPad 2s and 3s from field kits for the poor outdoor performance and replaced them with Airs. The display is usable even in direct sunlight when surrounded by glare/reflections from water. The only Windows tablets we've evaluated that are comparable are "ruggedized" computers designed for outdoor use which are too heavy and expensive for our use cases. We just want commodity hardware that works outside. I'm looking forward to giving a SP3 some serious outdoor evaluation time, it sounds like they've stepped up the display in multiple factors.
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To be fair I've never used an air. Although no cellphone or laptop I've ever used has been particularly readable in sunlight either. If the air screen is really that bright it's impressive.
 
CEpeep said:
The display is usable even in direct sunlight when surrounded by glare/reflections from water.
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LOL How exactly are these Ipad's used in the field? To get water reflections you need to be laying on the ground with your ipad in the air and pointing at the water behind you...
Seems like there is a lot of working "in the field".
Even after having tried ipad's for multiple applications, it has never even come close to being usable. I have followed seminars where Ipad's were used, done presentations with them and owned them for several years. I will never use one again... Everything you can do on an Ipad can be done much faster on a laptop or a Surface-like device. Typing is a mess, very low real-estate compared to screen size, bad for productivity,...
The only things an Ipad should be considered for is IOS games and facebook.
I own 2 Ipad's: a 1 and a 3 and have used the Air. So I have enough experience with them to form an honest opinion.

Also, if you want to compare readability, you need to put variable brightness off on your SP3.

BTW: I don't even know why anyone would compare a SP to an Ipad...:rolleyes:
Compare a normal Surface to an Ipad, that would be almost fair.
 
Henri108 said:
LOL How exactly are these Ipad's used in the field? To get water reflections you need to be laying on the ground with your ipad in the air and pointing at the water behind you...
Seems like there is a lot of working "in the field".
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Pardon? When was the last time you were on a boat? Light reflecting off the water around you creates glare that can wash out your entire visual field. You might also notice this happens with polished glass, white building surfaces and all sorts of other things people commonly encounter when they go outside. The device has to have the right balance of brightness, anti-glare coating and wide viewing angles to compensate for this. In our environmental use testing, the iPad Air has come out ahead for being an excellent outdoor performer at a commodity pricepoint. As I said earlier, I'm looking forward to testing the SP3 outside because it looks to be a better performer than its predecessors.

Henri108 said:
Even after having tried ipad's for multiple applications, it has never even come close to being usable. I have followed seminars where Ipad's were used, done presentations with them and owned them for several years. I will never use one again... Everything you can do on an Ipad can be done much faster on a laptop or a Surface-like device. Typing is a mess, very low real-estate compared to screen size, bad for productivity,...
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That's nice. Our clients use custom-developed apps (by us) for most of their work. We analyze their needs and create what works for them. The concerns of non-custom apps or extensive typing use cases aren't even really relevant. If your productivity app for a tablet or phone requires a lot of typing to begin with, you have already failed. Minimize text input and use the features of the device to collect the data you need. If our client groups were primarily authoring text in the field they'd just use a pencil and paper, or in the future a custom app made possible by the robust handwriting recognition on devices like the SP3.

Henri108 said:
The only things an Ipad should be considered for is IOS games and facebook.
I own 2 Ipad's: a 1 and a 3 and have used the Air. So I have enough experience with them to form an honest opinion.
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Yes, we see extensive evidence of your tenure in mobile device usability. The fact that these devices are used (along with custom apps) in every industry from sports training to astronomy to marine archaeology only underscores how out of touch you are.
 
All devices are painful to use in direct sunlight. Although equivalent I wouldn't want to use my iPad or SP3 out in direct sunlight. iPad Air also has the trade off of worse black level which to me has more of an impact on daily use.

63813.png
 
If the 2013 15-inch rMBP's black levels are anything like my 2012's, this is truly pathetic.
 
CEpeep said:
Yes, we see extensive evidence of your tenure in mobile device usability. The fact that these devices are used (along with custom apps) in every industry from sports training to astronomy to marine archaeology only underscores how out of touch you are.
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I am not saying it doesn't work, but that it will be MUCH better with devices with dedicated inputs (keyboard) and more coöperating applications. It's much faster and you have much more possibilities to work with the data you put in.
This was the only thing I wanted to make clear. Sorry if the rest was a bit over the top.

The most frequent industry wherin ipad's are used is Education as far as I know.
Teachers can send their students exercises, texts to read,... Easy and works.
The students have to make the exercises and have 3 options: Making them in the app and take 2-6 times longer to type them, or write them by hand and scan them or make them on their keyboard device and send them. None of these are ideal and all are time wasting that makes that kids have less time for real learning and for being a kid (playing outside, watching discovery and more). Not one of my cousins like the use of Ipad's in their school for the actual lessons.

Wouldn't it be a lot better if these kids had devices with a keyboard, multitasking possibilities (so they can write their research down whilst having their input texts next to it) and have more possibilities to share their researches. And thus have more time for being a kid.

Even without any apps this works perfectly.
 
The SP3 pen and cloud collaboration features are going to be huge for education especially for remote students. Teacher can see a student solve an equation live, essay, etc. and collaborate. iPad's capability is just a tiny subset of SP3 and the $100 difference in price for the 64GB model is a no brainer so schools will be switching over with the added benefit of preparing students for the real Windows dominated corporate world. You'd get laughed at if you list iPad on your resume.
 
mi7chy said:
The SP3 pen and cloud collaboration features are going to be huge for education especially for remote students. Teacher can see a student solve an equation live, essay, etc. and collaborate. iPad's capability is just a tiny subset of SP3 and the $100 difference in price for the 64GB model is a no brainer so schools will be switching over with the added benefit of preparing students for the real Windows dominated corporate world. You'd get laughed at if you list iPad on your resume.
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If Microsoft can leverage this to get back into education in a big way, more power to them. Personally I don't think that MS can gain any more traction into K-12 education than they already have as long as they are tied to the desktop interface, but I guess we'll see over the next few months as they roll out a Modern UI version of Office and really make a break from it. They already do fine in higher ed. The classrooms are full of Macbooks, but the students are all logging into a Windows domain and typing their papers in Word.

The iPads normally used in K-12 are the lowest spec'd iPad 2/4 depending on when they were purchased. They're $400/ea at most with a discount for large quantities so MS has some serious cost-cutting to do if they want to position any model of the SP3 as a replacement for classroom iPads. The Surface RT has been MS's go-to for educational marketing and I suspect it will continue to be until it is phased out or replaced.
 
CEpeep said:
The iPads normally used in K-12 are the lowest spec'd iPad 2/4 depending on when they were purchased. They're $400/ea at most with a discount for large quantities so MS has some serious cost-cutting to do if they want to position any model of the SP3 as a replacement for classroom iPads. The Surface RT has been MS's go-to for educational marketing and I suspect it will continue to be until it is phased out or replaced.
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There are a lot more Windows 8 x86 besides the SPs. There are a number of Windows 8 x86 devices that are priced below the iPad now and you can even get an 8" Wacom capable Windows 8 tablet for around $300 which has all of the OneNote capabilities of the SP3, except the pen to launch OneNote feature which is pretty cool.
 
heatlesssun said:
There are a lot more Windows 8 x86 besides the SPs. There are a number of Windows 8 x86 devices that are priced below the iPad now and you can even get an 8" Wacom capable Windows 8 tablet for around $300 which has all of the OneNote capabilities of the SP3, except the pen to launch OneNote feature which is pretty cool.
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Yeah! So why aren't classrooms full of them?
 
CEpeep said:
Yeah! So why aren't classrooms full of them?
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Maybe because consumers are always like 5 years behind. After all they are buying ipad 1and 2s.

To be fair classrooms have always been a mixed bag. I remember highschool using mostly macs but having a windows machine at home. I hardly even found a mac outside of the schools. Seems apple is just good at targeting administrators or they have some bias. Lets flip the argument around why would they pay so much for an iPad when android alternatives have been available? I recently visited a campus where they are so swiftly moved everything to macs it was ridiculous. Took that same campus forever to make a lot of progress with windows and through the whole time they constantly resisted and kept pushing a 50/50 mac, PC ratio when the real world was like 98% PC. As soon as macs started getting popular they flipped like 90% macs. Some people just have a hard on for apple that's all and for whatever reason apple has a lot of those people on their side in academics at the decision making level and advertising which gives them a huge advantage as those places are so exposed.
 
CEpeep said:
Yeah! So why aren't classrooms full of them?
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Well for one, the cheaper Windows 8 tablets have just started to come out and they are going to be going even cheaper in the months ahead. And of course iOS has MANY more apps but I think that when we start to see $100 Windows 8 tablets, Windows 8 tablets will start to be harder and harder to ignore for developers. Let alone school districts that might start to see the value of Windows 8 hybrid devices, and those are getting cheaper as well, what can serve more than being a mostly consumptive device.
 
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