Supporting gaming under Linux actually results in Microsoft improving their API.

[BulletDust]

I can't count the number of times I've seen a Windows gamer claim Linux isn't there yet because it doesn't support the games they want, and time and time again I try to emphasize the point that supporting Linux by dual booting or running Linux on a spare machine just to play even one game you enjoy under Linux encourages developer's to support an alternative that benefits everyone - By supporting the growth of Linux no one is loosing, you can still run Windows, but at least support a change for the better, especially when it's costing you nothing to do so.

So I'm surfing the web, looking at the usual crap when I come across this article, and it really makes sense.

By supporting Linux you create competition, creating competition pushes Microsoft to develop their operating system, specifically their API and make it better in a faster timeframe. You create a situation where Microsoft goes from just doing enough to thinking 'shit, we've gotta make improvements'.

Have a read, I think it makes perfect sense. Try to reply in a mature, unbiased and open fashion.

https://richg42.blogspot.com.au/2017/01/the-faster-zombies-blog-post.html

 

[heatlesssun]

Competition is a great thing. And certainly Microsoft's command, monopoly, market share, whatever you want to call it in the PC market isn't an ideal situation, competition goes both ways. If Linux can't compete on the basis of the things one care's about then the Linux community has some responsibility to listen and make that situation better to earn people's support. And I know that much if not most of that has a lot to do with developer support. But still it's up to community to listen and not discount why folks don't see Linux the way it's proponent do.

 

[modi123]

What does "supporting linux" mean?

 

[heatlesssun]

What does "supporting linux" mean?

This something I do find interesting about a lot of desktop Linux proponents. On one had, they seem to like being "above the fray, out of the mainstream" and "totally in control of their computers". "Windows is for the masses." Then there's reality when you need those masses to interest developers.

 

[modi123]

Huh?

 

[heatlesssun]

Just saying that I've seen plenty of comments over the years from desktop Linux folks that like desktop Linux out the of mainstream because being in the mainstream would bring with it many of the things they don't like about Windows.

 

[modi123]

Ah.. so the generally amusing hate shift on Ubuntu because it was too mainstream. Yup.. seen that by many penguin shirted neck beards.

 

[BulletDust]

Ah.. so the generally amusing hate shift on Ubuntu because it was too mainstream. Yup.. seen that by many penguin shirted neck beards.

I see most Linux users using Ubuntu, I don't like the Unity interface as it's too touch oriented, but there's more than one flavour of Ubuntu - Hence the reason I run Ubuntu Mate.

We've got a whole effects industry using Linux as their OS of choice, very talented people that are far from neckbeards - You can give the neckbeard crap a rest.

What does "supporting linux" mean?

To quote myself in the first post:

I can't count the number of times I've seen a Windows gamer claim Linux isn't there yet because it doesn't support the games they want, and time and time again I try to emphasise the point that supporting Linux by dual booting or running Linux on a spare machine just to play even one game you enjoy under Linux encourages developer's to support an alternative that benefits everyone - By supporting the growth of Linux no one is loosing, you can still run Windows, but at least support a change for the better, especially when it's costing you nothing to do so.

Not too sure how you missed that...?

This something I do find interesting about a lot of desktop Linux proponents. On one had, they seem to like being "above the fray, out of the mainstream" and "totally in control of their computers". "Windows is for the masses." Then there's reality when you need those masses to interest developers.

Linux users are out of the mainstream, they are totally in control of their PC, Windows is for the masses as it's on literally every brand name PC sold. Linux users don't need the masses, the masses need to wake up and realise competition is a good thing - This is a point that like all of your other baseless assumptions cannot be argued.

I find you amusing Heatlesssun, you just refuse to acknowledge this point. I can do a Google search on your username and I turn up a literal plethora of Windows biased posts going back years in a number of online forums. Your claim that you don't care about the OS, you only care about what you can achieve on your PC is obviously not the case - You are completely besotted with Windows and you outright refuse to accept that supporting Linux benefits everyone.

It gets to the point where I really just skim over your posts, as I can predict what you're going to say before I even read it. As I stated in another thread, you're welcome to participate in Linux threads, provided you stop being stupidly critical.

 

[BulletDust]

Competition is a great thing. And certainly Microsoft's command, monopoly, market share, whatever you want to call it in the PC market isn't an ideal situation, competition goes both ways. If Linux can't compete on the basis of the things one care's about then the Linux community has some responsibility to listen and make that situation better to earn people's support. And I know that much if not most of that has a lot to do with developer support. But still it's up to community to listen and not discount why folks don't see Linux the way it's proponent do.

This is a great example of your outright laughable posts! You claim that competition is a great thing, however then you claim that the Linux community needs to take responsibility and create a situation whereby Linux can compete on the basis of the things users care about (whatever that is!) and then you claim developer support isn't important!

WTF?!

Do you understand that in supporting Linux using the method I described above developers will be forced to take notice and start developing for Linux, it's got literally nothing to do with the community unless they want to start paying for advertising! You constantly keep deliberately missing the point and I'm not the only person to comment on this.

 

[Gman1979]

Ah.. so the generally amusing hate shift on Ubuntu because it was too mainstream. Yup.. seen that by many penguin shirted neck beards.

Yeah about that, Most (not all ) of that hate is directed at Ubuntu because Mark Shuttleworth has been trying to create his own cult of personality and wasting resources on things such as Ubuntu for phones, when there are still more pressing issues to take care of.

 

[heatlesssun]

Bottom line, if desktop Linux were as good as it's many of its proponents say, a lot more people would be using it. And that's something you fail to realize.

 

[BulletDust]

Bottom line, if desktop Linux were as good as it's many of its proponents say, a lot more people would be using it. And that's something you fail to realize.

And I've told you time and time again that's a load of crap!

Linux does not advertise, many people don't even know it exists - Although that is changing. Further more, when it comes to Windows, users don't even get the privilege of choice as it comes preinstalled on literally every machine sold.

We've been over this Heatlesssun, this goes back to my comment about you constantly, most likely deliberately, missing the point.

 

[heatlesssun]

This is a great example of your outright laughable posts! You claim that competition is a great thing, however then you claim that the Linux community needs to take responsibility and create a situation whereby Linux can compete on the basis of the things users care about (whatever that is!) and then you claim developer support isn't important!

WTF?!

Not what I said. For instance, people claim how wonderful Linux is, people mention why it doesn't work for them and then answers like "I never heard of OneNote and don't know anyone that does." Ok, that's fine. And I get the lack of a native OneNote app isn't a fault of Linux, that's on Microsoft. But you can't talk about all the wonderful choices that Linux affords while discounting the choices of others.

Do you understand that in supporting Linux using the method I described above developers will be forced to take notice and start developing for Linux, it's got literally nothing to do with the community unless they want to start paying for advertising! You constantly keep deliberately missing the point and I'm not the only person to comment on this.

I've been hearing this argument for 20 years and I don't discount it. But likewise competition should be natural. Telling people that they should use Linux to simply replicate what they already have? If Linux suits one then use it. If it doesn't then there's no obligation or reason to use something that doesn't work for that person.

 

[modi123]

No, I got that you think everyone in the world should dual boot but that's it? Meh.

 

[heatlesssun]

And I've told you time and time again that's a load of crap!

Plenty of people here know about and know it well enough to know its strengths and weaknesses, like they do Windows.

We've been over this Heatlesssun, this goes back to my comment about you constantly, most likely deliberately, missing the point.

The point is that if Linux provided more users with what they wanted, more people would use it. That's the case with anything.

 

[heatlesssun]

No, I got that you think everyone in the world should dual boot but that's it? Meh.

I use Linux personally in a VM when I need too. It serves its purpose fine like that. Linux doesn't really support the kind of hardware and software I use natively. There's no point in doing something I KNOW would problematic.

 

[BulletDust]

Plenty of people here know about and know it well enough to know its strengths and weaknesses, like they do Windows.

There's a great many users out there that aren't confined to these forums Heatlesssun. Furthermore, based on some of the generalised remarks I read on these forums, like this one:

The point is that if Linux provided more users with what they wanted, more people would use it. That's the case with anything.

I highly doubt a great many gamers know what they can achieve under Linux at all.

Look, if you're just going to keep peddling the same Heatlesssun biased comments, than you may as well not participate in this thread, as we've all read them a million times before.

 

[heatlesssun]

I highly doubt a great many gamers know what they can achieve under Linux at all.

But for gaming purposes what does one achieve with Linux that Windows doesn't do? Besides run into tons of games that aren't supported by natively by Linux? There are basic things that I think you're being just as obstinate about as you think I'm being. "Linux is great for gaming!" And then you find out that 75% of games on Steam DON'T EVER RUN ON IT.

 

[modi123]

In the end - sure.. it's nice that gaming happens on linux. Is that a reason to change? No.
Is that a reason for me to dual boot? No.
Is that going to help catapult linux into some competitive third of the desktop market share in competition to Windows or iOS? No.

I also have a few linux VMs floating around, but nothing ever serious used or would consider telling any non-techies in my circle of life to change to.

Linux for ever will be the niche world OS. If, for anything, 'linux' lack a cohesive voice and advertising. Those at raving and frothing tech meet ups about linux are indeed the neck bearded, faded black penguin shirt wearing kind. Those are the ones I most see doing the "grass roots" advertising, and are certainly doing a poor job at it. Maybe write letters to the linux council to crank out some advertising. "Hey - linux, it ain't so bad". There was a glimmer of hope when there was a push for an Ubuntu phone.. you know.. something to get the OS out in folks' hands to use. That withered away under the mass churn of sub tribes and flavors of the OS.

 

[Frobozz]

Hey guys. I'm going to stop using my computer how I want because it's wrong. I'm going to start working on the Windows Master Race backlog of 30,000 games. Where should I start?

 

[modi123]

Commander Keen.

 

[Gman1979]

In the end - sure.. it's nice that gaming happens on linux. Is that a reason to change? No.
Is that a reason for me to dual boot? No.
Is that going to help catapult linux into some competitive third of the desktop market share in competition to Windows or iOS? No.

I also have a few linux VMs floating around, but nothing ever serious used or would consider telling any non-techies in my circle of life to change to.

Linux for ever will be the niche world OS. If, for anything, 'linux' lack a cohesive voice and advertising. Those at raving and frothing tech meet ups about linux are indeed the neck bearded, faded black penguin shirt wearing kind. Those are the ones I most see doing the "grass roots" advertising, and are certainly doing a poor job at it. Maybe write letters to the linux council to crank out some advertising. "Hey - linux, it ain't so bad". There was a glimmer of hope when there was a push for an Ubuntu phone.. you know.. something to get the OS out in folks' hands to use. That withered away under the mass churn of sub tribes and flavors of the OS.

I'm going to be a semantic asshole and point out the fact you didn't qualify your statement as referring to the desktop. In light of that, you seem to miss the point that Linux underpins a solid majority of the internet's infrastructure, servers, and cloud offerings. Linux cares not if you don't need it nor does it need to advertise. It is already firmly entrenched. If you don't personally use or need it then that's fine. But most of what you do on the net each day is running on top of it anyway because it does what some of us need it to pretty well. I use whatever fits my purpose for each project, but you come across as someone living under a rock and trying to put down people instead of trying to learn anything.

 

[BulletDust]

But for gaming purposes what does one achieve with Linux that Windows doesn't do? Besides run into tons of games that aren't supported by natively by Linux? There are basic things that I think you're being just as obstinate about as you think I'm being. "Linux is great for gaming!" And then you find out that 75% of games on Steam DON'T EVER RUN ON IT.

My Gawd, you're still missing the point. Perhaps what you're doing isn't deliberate.

 

[BulletDust]

In the end - sure.. it's nice that gaming happens on linux. Is that a reason to change? No.
Is that a reason for me to dual boot? No.
Is that going to help catapult linux into some competitive third of the desktop market share in competition to Windows or iOS? No.

I also have a few linux VMs floating around, but nothing ever serious used or would consider telling any non-techies in my circle of life to change to.

Linux for ever will be the niche world OS. If, for anything, 'linux' lack a cohesive voice and advertising. Those at raving and frothing tech meet ups about linux are indeed the neck bearded, faded black penguin shirt wearing kind. Those are the ones I most see doing the "grass roots" advertising, and are certainly doing a poor job at it. Maybe write letters to the linux council to crank out some advertising. "Hey - linux, it ain't so bad". There was a glimmer of hope when there was a push for an Ubuntu phone.. you know.. something to get the OS out in folks' hands to use. That withered away under the mass churn of sub tribes and flavors of the OS.

If we stick to the linked article, the whole point to this thread, we can see plain as day that what Gabe is doing at Valve has already forced Microsoft to take notice thereby forcing change. As much as you want to argue your point, the article factually states otherwise and like Heatlesssun you're completely missing the point.

 

[modi123]

Gman1979 - sure, but in the thread started as promoting linux gaming with dual booting to help drive Microsoft into the stratosphere of awesome windows updates for competition reasons. The op sounded concerned that not enough lay folk are using linux and that was the avenue to promote it - dual booting and linux gaming. A far cry from networking backbones.

 

[BulletDust]

No, I got that you think everyone in the world should dual boot but that's it? Meh.

Dear Gawd, another one. Just cannot grasp the point eh?

 

[modi123]

*shrug* It seems so.

 

[BulletDust]

Right.

Well the discussion is based around the facts as presented in the linked article, if you want to participate and discuss those facts in a friendly open manner without being biased and regurgitating the same comments, fine.

Otherwise I'm not too sure what you're doing here?

 

[heatlesssun]

My Gawd, you're still missing the point. Perhaps what you're doing isn't deliberate.

Your point is people should buy and play more games under Linux via dual booting, using another machine or ditching Windows and just gaming on Linux full time. You didn't mention that one but that would probably be the preference of Linux fans I guess.

 

[modi123]

I was discussing your assertion that everyone should promote dual booting linux for gaming and the likely hood of that making a significant factor to make linux a viable third piece of the desktop pie.

 

[heatlesssun]

If we stick to the linked article, the whole point to this thread, we can see plain as day that what Gabe is doing at Valve has already forced Microsoft to take notice thereby forcing change. As much as you want to argue your point, the article factually states otherwise and like Heatlesssun you're completely missing the point.

You're conflating points. No one ever said competition isn't good. But look at it know. Linux market share in Gabe's survey collapsed in 2016. From 0.97% to 0.80%. And now Gabe is all into VR and none of that's out for Linux right now.

 

[BulletDust]

You're conflating points. No one ever said competition isn't good. But look at it know. Linux market share in Gabe's survey collapsed in 2016. From 0.97% to 0.80%. And now Gabe is all into VR and none of that's out for Linux right now.

Right, so there's been a dip and it's all over. For all we know there was a migration to GOG.

We all know that's not how things work Heatlesssun, what you're proposing is pure speculation and is in no way what the article is about, I'm not conflicting anything.

Discuss the article and the fact that the potential exists for OpenGL to perform better under Linux than DX under Windows and that caused Microsoft to stand up and take notice, or leave this thread.

 

[heatlesssun]

Hey guys. I'm going to stop using my computer how I want because it's wrong. I'm going to start working on the Windows Master Race backlog of 30,000 games. Where should I start?

The OP is telling people to dual boot or use a spare machine for sake of running games on Linux that already run fine under Windows. As for what games to play, isn't that the beauty of choice? Pick what you want. Linux folks are all about choice as long as it's a choice they think is correct. The idea that someone would choose to use Windows because it works for them, no Windows users are "the masses", "stupid", etc. It's the same old condescending attitude that's long been an issue with the Linux community and I'm FAR from the only person that's mentioned that in this forum.

If you like Linux, if it works for you, then use it by all means and I've never said otherwise. But for gaming, nope, Linux isn't going to work for me and from my perspective it just got a hell of lot worse now that I started into VR.

 

[Frobozz]

Monopolistic Microsoft is a lazy shit Microsoft. I think it would have been great if antitrust had decided to bust them up back when it was overwhelmingly the case.

The main disappointing thing from that article/blog post is that it paints a picture of Valve letting up off the gas. They created SteamOS as a hedge against the Windows store, and then Microsoft paid them a visit, and then some layoffs (I didn't know about those). I guess who knows what was said in the meeting, but I'm sure it's the usual promises and sweet nothings.

I'm just glad it's still moving forward. SteamVR has been demonstrated on Linux, performance is continuously improving, etc...

 

[BulletDust]

Your point is people should buy and play more games under Linux via dual booting, using another machine or ditching Windows and just gaming on Linux full time. You didn't mention that one but that would probably be the preference of Linux fans I guess.

Not really, I did state that it benifits all for people to dual boot Linux and at least download one game and play it, or better still create another machine that runs Linux full time - But you still seem to be missing the point of why I stated that. And that point has to do with everyone, not just Linux users.

 

[BulletDust]

Monopolistic Microsoft is a lazy shit Microsoft. I think it would have been great if antitrust had decided to bust them up back when it was overwhelmingly the case.

The main disappointing thing from that article/blog post is that it paints a picture of Valve letting up off the gas. They created SteamOS as a hedge against the Windows store, and then Microsoft paid them a visit, and then some layoffs (I didn't know about those). I guess who knows what was said in the meeting, but I'm sure it's the usual promises and sweet nothings.

I'm just glad it's still moving forward. SteamVR has been demonstrated on Linux, performance is continuously improving, etc...

To be fair, when has Valve really committed to anything? Look at the Half Life franchise. Valve got the ball rolling and I don't see it slowing anytime soon, titles are still growing under Linux and that's a good thing.

 

[Frobozz]

The OP is telling people to dual boot or use a spare machine for sake of running games on Linux that already run fine under Windows. As for what games to play, isn't that the beauty of choice? Pick what you want. Linux folks are all about choice as long as it's a choice they think is correct. The idea that someone would choose to use Windows because it works for them, no Windows users are "the masses", "stupid", etc. It's the same old condescending attitude that's long been an issue with the Linux community and I'm FAR from the only person that's mentioned that in this forum.

If you like Linux, if it works for you, then use it by all means and I've never said otherwise. But for gaming, nope, Linux isn't going to work for me and from my perspective it just got a hell of lot worse now that I started into VR.

I don't see any of that elitism in the OP. Yet again, it's the Linux subforum, so people are going to want to support the platform they're excited about. Would a parallel to "buying local" work? - You can get whatever you want at Wal-mart, why would you want to give money to Bob's general store when you can just go to War-mart? Bob's doesn't even have toilet paper for crying out loud!

 

[heatlesssun]

Monopolistic Microsoft is a lazy shit Microsoft. I think it would have been great if antitrust had decided to bust them up back when it was overwhelmingly the case.

The main disappointing thing from that article/blog post is that it paints a picture of Valve letting up off the gas. They created SteamOS as a hedge against the Windows store, and then Microsoft paid them a visit, and then some layoffs (I didn't know about those). I guess who knows what was said in the meeting, but I'm sure it's the usual promises and sweet nothings.

I'm just glad it's still moving forward. SteamVR has been demonstrated on Linux, performance is continuously improving, etc...

I agree with most of this. Of course lack of competition can make one lazy. But telling Windows users to dual boot or run a spare machine just to play games on Linux that already run fine on Windows? Whatever that is, it's not competition. And yes, I know about SteamVR on Linux. And right now there are 400 plus titles on Steam for VR, and two for Linux?

So whenever Linux starts supporting VR, just dual boot over to Linux. And then when I want to play something else, boot back over to Windows. Or unplug the VR hardware from my Windows device and into a Linux box? Really, I get the point the OP is trying to make. He's not fully considered just how much a pain in that ass what he's talking about it could be.

 

[BulletDust]

I agree with most of this. Of course lack of competition can make one lazy. But telling Windows users to dual boot or run a spare machine just to play games on Linux that already run fine on Windows? Whatever that is, it's not competition. And yes, I know about SteamVR on Linux. And right now there are 400 plus titles on Steam for VR, and two for Linux?

How the hell can you not understand why I said that!!

Hint: I'm not trying to forcibly switch anyone to Linux...

Dear gawd.

 

[heatlesssun]

I don't see any of that elitism in the OP. Yet again, it's the Linux subforum, so people are going to want to support the platform they're excited about. Would a parallel to "buying local" work? - You can get whatever you want at Wal-mart, why would you want to give money to Bob's general store when you can just go to War-mart? Bob's doesn't even have toilet paper for crying out loud!

Telling Windows users to dual boot or use another machine to play games because it good for everyone? Even if few of a persons games is supported, a person going out of their way to do something that works fine with what they have? There's a certain elitism to the notion.