Suggestions needed! Long..

[Ride2kmax]

I have 2 old systems one for my son and one for me.
Mine I build like five years ago...
MB Asus P4P800 Deluxe socket 478
CPU P4 3.4 Fsb800 HT Extreme edition
RAM 2gb DDR400
160g hdd
VC Nvidia FX5200
WinXP

My son
Emachine with a celeron 2.2 also socket 478 with an 80gb hdd and 512mb of Ram.
WinXp

The 2 system are only used for internet documents pictures and some movies not much.

Now the emachine motherboard i think its not working anymore it beebs seven times when post and no bios no video nothing.
I checked vc hdd ram and they are ok.
So I'm thinking on swapping my P4P800 with the Ram to the Emachine and putting it on the 20 dollars Dynex case from BB.

Here is where i need opinions.
I dont know if it would be a good idea or not
Option 1
To replace my P4P800 that i'll would be putting on my sons computer and i'm thinking of buying this
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138079
and some ddr2 and a decent pci-e vc. But i dont now if my P4 benefit from this.

OR
Option 2
Just buy cheap 478 mb to replace the broken one.

I am thinking of building a budget quad system and problably wait for Nehalem technology to build a nice system.

What do you guys think.

Thanks everyone for their time and opinions.

 

[tiraides]

What's your budget? If you do a bit of searching here, you could find yourself a nice $600-$800 build that could last you several years. Nehalem isn't going to be the be-all/end-all of modern computing... at least, not right away.

Considering the age of both computers, you may want to just replace them both outright. If you don't want to build both computers, check out some bargain sites (listed in the FAQ) and find a deal on a cheap Dell (or equivalent) that would suit your son's (and/or your) needs.

 

[Ride2kmax]

Buget around 200-300 only if is not a bad idea about option 1.

I'll definitive build a new system with a quad but i still need an additional 2 computers and to replace 2 computer for 500 each is something i cant afford, plus a new build.

 

[tiraides]

Your P4 won't see a benefit (compared to, say, a Pentium Dual Core) with DDR2 RAM. But your options in terms of replacing parts are pretty limited.

If you want to keep your upgrades under $200, in addition to the board you referenced in your OP, go with a 2GB kit of DDR2 533 RAM ($40) and an 8600GT ($80). Keep in mind that the P4 will become the bottleneck with those upgrades in place, but you could transfer the RAM and video card over to another build, if necessary.

Then again, you may be able to find someone with a used Socket 478 motherboard available in the [H] For Sale/For Trade forum.

 

[Youri Carma]

Funny, I just refurbished a P4P800 what did I do?

First of all a new HD realy helps to make the rig faster and much less noisier.

I would advice the very afordable and best tested (CHIP=German computer magazine) HD Seagate 250 GB ST3250410AS 80MB/s one of the fastest and quietest HD out there.
CHIP: http://www.chip.de/artikel/SATA-Festplatten-3-5-Zoll-im-Test_31472444.html

I replaced the noisy old Videocard for a better but still cheap passive cooled one that makes your rig realy quiet.

I replaced the CPU cooler with a Zalman with fan regulator speed which works much smoother.

Put windows XP on that rig (preferable some light version) not Vista which will slow it down.

This P4P800 rig realy runs smooth and can give pleasure for at least a couple of comming years.

(Didn't do anything with the RAM)

 

[Ride2kmax]

Your P4 won't see a benefit (compared to, say, a Pentium Dual Core) with DDR2 RAM. But your options in terms of replacing parts are pretty limited.

If you want to keep your upgrades under $200, in addition to the board you referenced in your OP, go with a 2GB kit of DDR2 533 RAM ($40) and an 8600GT ($80). Keep in mind that the P4 will become the bottleneck with those upgrades in place, but you could transfer the RAM and video card over to another build, if necessary.

Then again, you may be able to find someone with a used Socket 478 motherboard available in the [H] For Sale/For Trade forum.

This exactly what i was thinking if i get ddr2, pcie card i could use them later but i wasnt sure if it would make a difference with my p4 at least enough to notice.
I been reading all about how you guys here are into pc games and i would like to try to play them on this computer until i get quad.

 

[Ride2kmax]

Funny, I just refurbished a P4P800 what did I do?

First of all a new HD realy helps to make the rig faster and much less noisier.

I would advice the very afordable and best tested (CHIP=German computer magazine) HD Seagate 250 GB ST3250410AS 80MB/s one of the fastest and quietest HD out there.
CHIP: http://www.chip.de/artikel/SATA-Festplatten-3-5-Zoll-im-Test_31472444.html

I replaced the noisy old Videocard for a better but still cheap passive cooled one that makes your rig realy quiet.

I replaced the CPU cooler with a Zalman with fan regulator speed which works much smoother.

Put windows XP on that rig (preferable some light version) not Vista which will slow it down.

This P4P800 rig realy runs smooth and can give pleasure for at least a couple of comming years.

(Didn't do anything with the RAM)

Yeah you are right the P4p800 is smooth. I also have winxp i did replace the hhd a few weeks ago too.
I have a rosewill cpu cooler since that ee cpu runs really hot.

 

[engiNURD]

$68 - Intel Pentium Dual Core E2160
$67 - Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L
$38 - 2GB DDR2-800 T800UX2GC5
=======
$173 + tax and shipping

Whether this goes to you or your son is irrelevant. Its within budget and outperforms both of your systems (only slightly outperforms the P4EE).

If you want a budget quad system, just change the CPU to the Q6600 for $200. If you want a better board, get the MSI, Gigabyte, or Asus G33 or G35 chipset instead (with onboard graphics to prevent the need for a discrete video card).

 

[Ride2kmax]

$68 - Intel Pentium Dual Core E2160
$67 - Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L
$38 - 2GB DDR2-800 T800UX2GC5
=======
$173 + tax and shipping

Whether this goes to you or your son is irrelevant. Its within budget and outperforms both of your systems (only slightly outperforms the P4EE).

If you want a budget quad system, just change the CPU to the Q6600 for $200. If you want a better board, get the MSI, Gigabyte, or Asus G33 or G35 chipset instead (with onboard graphics to prevent the need for a discrete video card).

Good sugestion! I didnt think about this one.

 

[Ride2kmax]

anybody else?

 

[tiraides]

enginurd's suggestion is the best approach.

 

[Youri Carma]

I think I would go for a high single core instead of a slower duocore.
Most proggiez won't utilise it anywayz and the rig will feel much slower that way.

CPU P4 3.4 Fsb800 HT Extreme edition is a very good starting point.
Get a good aftermarket aircooler on it which will cool better and make less noise.

Maybe with the right Ram even some more OC overhead?
Maybe invest some time to find out about the fastest Ram for this rig.

If you realy want to upgrade to duocore you want to start with a CPU which can run 3,0 GHz or more not like the Dual Core E2160 1.8 GHz(With OC for the Ducore very advisable to take advantage of it's massive overhead ) not with a CPU which cannot perform the brute CPU power you used to like the P4 3.4.

So better keep it while saving for a real upgrade in feeling CPU power the same or more in duocore (But certainly not less).

That's what I did going from a P4 2,4 (OC 3,0) too E6600 2,4 (OC 3,5).

Bottemline: The best investment are two fast very cheap Seagate's ST3250410AS and put them in RAID 0 on your P4P800 (With two SATA ports on the mobo) and you will butterfly (Around 160 MB/s) away

But the second rig

$90,- Intel Pentium E2220 Allendale 2.4GHz (OC it too 3,0 at least)
$70,- ASUS P5KPL-CM LGA 775 Intel G31 Micro ATX Intel Memory FSB 1600/1333MHz
Standard DDR2 1066 RAM
$36,- Mushkin or Crucial Ballistix 1GB DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) 5-5-5-15
_________________________________________________________________________
$ 196,-

 

[tiraides]

But the second rig

$90,- Intel Pentium E2220 Allendale 2.4GHz (OC it too 3,0 at least)
$70,- ASUS P5KPL-CM LGA 775 Intel G31 Micro ATX Intel Memory FSB 1600/1333MHz
Standard DDR2 1066 RAM
$36,- Mushkin or Crucial Ballistix 1GB DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) 5-5-5-15
_________________________________________________________________________
$ 196,-

I understand your point, but I see a few problems with it.

First, neither the Gigabyte GA-P31-S3G nor the ASUS P5KPL-CM has onboard RAID. While having even one 250GB SATA HDD would offer some improvement with the OP's current system(s), he would still have to deal with the issue of the outdated S478 processors sooner or later. Getting a new CPU/mobo/RAM combination for under $200 will enable him to get a video card and a new SATA drive (either an optical drive/burner or a hard drive) with the other $100 in his budget. Plus, a new motherboard gives him further upgrade options down the road. (The Core 2 series will continue to be sold, even while the upcoming Nehalem series becomes more prevalent next year.)

The E2xx0 processors all have the same approximate OC threshold (IIRC, it's around 3.2GHz-3.4GHz), but it's best to use an aftermarket CPU cooler in order to obtain those speeds. If the OP is willing to do it, he could easily push the E2160/E2180 to 3.0GHz (but the stock HSFs are not designed to handle the heat output of an overclocked processor). And though the P4 has a faster clock speed, the dual-core E2xx0 would be better for multi-tasking, allowing the OP to run a separate program on each core with less slowdown to the overall system, as compared to running two programs at the same time with the P4.

Additionally, the RAM you chose is overkill (speed-wise) for overclocking...

Stated FSB/4 = Actual FSB
Multiplier x Actual FSB = CPU Speed
2 x Actual FSB = RAM Speed

E2160:
Multi x Actual FSB, RAM Speed = Clock Speed
9 × 200Mhz = 1.8Ghz, DDR2-400 <<== Stock speeds
9 × 266Mhz = 2.4Ghz, DDR2-533 <<== Easy OC
9 × 333Mhz = 3.0Ghz, DDR2-667 <<== Good OC
9 × 400Mhz = 3.6Ghz, DDR2-800 <<== Excellent OC

E2180:
Multi x Actual FSB, RAM Speed = Clock Speed
10 × 200Mhz = 2.0Ghz, DDR2-400 <<== Stock speeds
10 × 266Mhz = 2.6Ghz, DDR2-533 <<== Easy OC
10 × 333Mhz = 3.3Ghz, DDR2-667 <<== Good OC

E2200:
Multi x Actual FSB, RAM Speed = Clock Speed
11 × 200Mhz = 2.2Ghz, DDR2-400 <<== Stock speeds
11 × 266Mhz = 2.9Ghz, DDR2-533 <<== Easy OC
11 × 333Mhz = 3.6Ghz, DDR2-667 <<== Good OC

... But that's assuming that the OP is even going to overclock -- something that I'm not even sure of. And you don't need any special "high performance" RAM -- with today's Intel processors, nearly any brand of memory would do fine. For productivity's sake, the OP could do more with 2GB of of DDR2 800 RAM rather than 1GB of DDR2 1066 RAM -- especially since you could buy the 2GB kit (or even a single 2GB module) for the same price.

 

[Ride2kmax]

I think I would go for a high single core instead of a slower duocore.
Most proggiez won't utilise it anywayz and the rig will feel much slower that way.

CPU P4 3.4 Fsb800 HT Extreme edition is a very good starting point.
Get a good aftermarket aircooler on it which will cool better and make less noise.

Maybe with the right Ram even some more OC overhead?
Maybe invest some time to find out about the fastest Ram for this rig.

If you realy want to upgrade to duocore you want to start with a CPU which can run 3,0 GHz or more not like the Dual Core E2160 1.8 GHz(With OC for the Ducore very advisable to take advantage of it's massive overhead ) not with a CPU which cannot perform the brute CPU power you used to like the P4 3.4.

So better keep it while saving for a real upgrade in feeling CPU power the same or more in duocore (But certainly not less).

That's what I did going from a P4 2,4 (OC 3,0) too E6600 2,4 (OC 3,5).

Bottemline: The best investment are two fast very cheap Seagate's ST3250410AS and put them in RAID 0 on your P4P800 (With two SATA ports on the mobo) and you will butterfly (Around 160 MB/s) away

But the second rig

$90,- Intel Pentium E2220 Allendale 2.4GHz (OC it too 3,0 at least)
$70,- ASUS P5KPL-CM LGA 775 Intel G31 Micro ATX Intel Memory FSB 1600/1333MHz
Standard DDR2 1066 RAM
$36,- Mushkin or Crucial Ballistix 1GB DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) 5-5-5-15
_________________________________________________________________________
$ 196,-

But i only plan on spending 200 to get the two systems runing.
You got 196 plus 2 seagate's and better ram.
But i do like the comment about having a high single core instead of a slower duocore.
Thats why i got the thought about upgrading the motherboard with a pci-e slot and able to use DDR2. My question is how good could the system be.
As to my son's computer i'm really considering the option of a slow duocore.

Well if you can guys please keep it coming....
Thanks

 

[Ride2kmax]

I understand your point, but I see a few problems with it.

First, neither the Gigabyte GA-P31-S3G nor the ASUS P5KPL-CM has onboard RAID. While having even one 250GB SATA HDD would offer some improvement with the OP's current system(s), he would still have to deal with the issue of the outdated S478 processors sooner or later. Getting a new CPU/mobo/RAM combination for under $200 will enable him to get a video card and a new SATA drive (either an optical drive/burner or a hard drive) with the other $100 in his budget. Plus, a new motherboard gives him further upgrade options down the road. (The Core 2 series will continue to be sold, even while the upcoming Nehalem series becomes more prevalent next year.)

The E2xx0 processors all have the same approximate OC threshold (IIRC, it's around 3.2GHz-3.4GHz), but it's best to use an aftermarket CPU cooler in order to obtain those speeds. If the OP is willing to do it, he could easily push the E2160/E2180 to 3.0GHz (but the stock HSFs are not designed to handle the heat output of an overclocked processor). And though the P4 has a faster clock speed, the dual-core E2xx0 would be better for multi-tasking, allowing the OP to run a separate program on each core with less slowdown to the overall system, as compared to running two programs at the same time with the P4.

Additionally, the RAM you chose is overkill (speed-wise) for overclocking...



... But that's assuming that the OP is even going to overclock -- something that I'm not even sure of. And you don't need any special "high performance" RAM -- with today's Intel processors, nearly any brand of memory would do fine. For productivity's sake, the OP could do more with 2GB of of DDR2 800 RAM rather than 1GB of DDR2 1066 RAM -- especially since you could buy the 2GB kit (or even a single 2GB module) for the same price.

So you recommned getting a E2160/E2180/E2200 with what MotherBoard and For Video Card what would you use?
Also i do plan to overclock but lightly, not a big overclocker.

 

[Youri Carma]

The mobo's are with onboard Video and Audio.

Maybe a good idea indeed to go for 2 GB instaed of 1GB like in my idea.

Maybe forget about the RAID and utilise two new HD in both systems cause every old system benefits from faster and quieter HD's and often is a bottleneck for speed.

 

[Ride2kmax]

The mobo's are with onboard Video and Audio.

Maybe a good idea indeed to go for 2 GB instaed of 1GB like in my idea.

Maybe forget about the RAID and utilise two new HD in both systems cause every old system benefits from faster and quieter HD's and often is a bottleneck for speed.

OK.............

 

[Youri Carma]

Well it is a hard descion when you see the E2xx0 series OC so well.
But with a complete new sytem you need allotof new stuff too besides the basic rig stuff like CP - Mobo - Ram but must admit:

Originally Posted by enginurd
$68 - Intel Pentium Dual Core E2160
$67 - Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L
$38 - 2GB DDR2-800 T800UX2GC5
=======
$173 + tax and shipping

= a good deal.

But I would spend the extra $22,- to get the Intel Pentium E2220 Allendale 2.4GHz to get an easy stable OC 3,0 + GHz.

But a best upgrade and spend less than $200,- is impossible cause with the new rig you need also PSU, HD, DvD, Floppydrive,Mouse Keyboard,soundboxes,microphone,Headset.

Bottemline: Leave the old Rig (Always can upgrade some later) and try to go for a new one.

Good Luck!

 

[Ride2kmax]

Well it is a hard descion when you see the E2xx0 series OC so well.
But with a complete new sytem you need allotof new stuff too besides the basic rig stuff like CP - Mobo - Ram but must admit:

= a good deal.

But I would spend the extra $22,- to get the Intel Pentium E2220 Allendale 2.4GHz to get an easy stable OC 3,0 + GHz.

But a best upgrade and spend less than $200,- is impossible cause with the new rig you need also PSU, HD, DvD, Floppydrive,Mouse Keyboard,soundboxes,microphone,Headset.

Bottemline: Leave the old Rig (Always can upgrade some later) and try to go for a new one.

Good Luck!

Well i have 2 new Cases with the 500w psu from the BB deal that was going on like a month ago a few IDE hhds a DVDr and FD I would only need MB,RAM,CPU and VC.

 

[Abu Som3a]

Pentium dual core is leaps and bounds ahead of P4. To put them in comparison, you will need to overclock your P4 EE to 5GHz to match the stock speed of one of the two cores of an E2180, which can be overclocked by a 10 year old from 2GHz to 3GHz minimum...

 

[colinstu]

Don't forget to look at AMD, they have some nice stuff out now too.

For the motherboard, either the Gigabyte 780G or ECS 780G.

CPU: Something here

Memory: 2x512, or 2x1 after rebate

 

[Youri Carma]

Don't exactly understand cause you can use nice Benchies but a day to day proggies won't utilise the two cores that's what I am saying.
So frankly you put an OL P4 3,4 GHz against an OC't Exx0 at 3,4 and than look at some real life prog experience (not using the second core).

 

[silent-circuit]

Don't exactly understand cause you can use nice Benchies but a day to day proggies won't utilise the two cores that's what I am saying.
So frankly you put an OL P4 3,4 GHz against an OC't Exx0 at 3,4 and than look at some real life prog experience (not using the second core).

Not true at all. As several others have said, /one/ of the two cores in an E2xxx at 3Ghz will be equivalent to the P4EE at ~5Ghz, so even if one of the cores is idle most of the time (not true due to OS overhead and background processes at very least) it will be faster. Always. Every time. No matter what. Period. Your information is outdated.

Also, did I see you recommend RAID on a $200 budget on the previous page? What was the thought process there? That should be the /last/ thing /anyone/ considers, not the first, and not on a limited budget.

 

[Youri Carma]

Still it would be nice to see some evidence.
I don't dispute that those E2xx0 are hot but how do they compare to the E6600?
I still think faster and less noiser HD's can make an OL P4 feel younger and that's from my own experience. W're talking almost 160 MB/s which will make your os quiker.
(2x 65 = 130 for 2x 250 GB fast Seagates)

 

[silent-circuit]

Still it would be nice to see some evidence.
I don't dispute that those E2xx0 are hot but how do they compare to the E6600?
I still think faster and less noiser HD's can make an OL P4 feel younger and that's from my own experience. W're talking almost 160 MB/s which will make your os quiker.
(2x 65 = 130 for 2x 250 GB fast Seagates)

No it won't. Aside from startup/loading time, there's pretty much zero difference between a modern 7200RPM drive and a pair of Raptors in RAID 0. Once everything's in place it will "feel" exactly the same. To most, several hundred dollars more and a greater chance of catastrophic data loss due to drive failure isn't even close to worthwhile.

As for the C2D vs. P4 performance differential, the proof is already there -- you just don't want to see it. Many of the benches that've been linked aren't multithreaded. Yes -- the C2Ds beat out P4s /that/ bad clock for clock.

E2xxx to E6xxx / E7xxx there's a 1-15% performance difference at the same clock speeds depending on the application. They take the biggest hit doing things like encoding video. Other than that they are very comparable, and even in 'worst case' scenarios, we're talking about a few seconds difference here. The only difference between the E2xxx, E6xxx, and E7xxx chips is onboard cache size.

 

[tiraides]

Here's a review that compares the E2160 to the E6600 with benchmarks. (If you really want to compare, find an old review of the P4 Prescotts and view the P4E/E2xxx reviews side by side.) I've found several E2xxx/E6xxx comparisons, but that's irrelevant. You're ignoring the problem.

The problem the OP is having with his son's computer was with the motherboard, not the hard drive. He wants to essentially perform a motherboard swap, but given the age of his main components (CPU, RAM, mobo), we (including the OP himself) are trying to find an effective solution with an eye towards the future (in terms of upgrades).

RAID is impractical for the OP's needs. First off, it will cost more money: If you don't add the cost of a standalone RAID controller card (a decent one is at least $50), a modern motherboard (released within the past couple of years) with onboard SATA RAID costs at least $100. (Now add in the costs of those hard drives...) Second, once you set up the RAID configuration (assuming, for a moment, that it's affordable), you then hit a new bottleneck: the P4 processor.

 

[Ride2kmax]

The problem the OP is having with his son's computer was with the motherboard, not the hard drive. He wants to essentially perform a motherboard swap, but given the age of his main components (CPU, RAM, mobo), we (including the OP himself) are trying to find an effective solution with an eye towards the future (in terms of upgrades).

Exactly......

Thanks everyone for your time and sugestions.

 

[Youri Carma]

No it won't. Aside from startup/loading time, there's pretty much zero difference between a modern 7200RPM drive and a pair of Raptors in RAID 0. Once everything's in place it will "feel" exactly the same. To most, several hundred dollars more and a greater chance of catastrophic data loss due to drive failure isn't even close to worthwhile.

As for the C2D vs. P4 performance differential, the proof is already there -- you just don't want to see it. Many of the benches that've been linked aren't multithreaded. Yes -- the C2Ds beat out P4s /that/ bad clock for clock.

E2xxx to E6xxx / E7xxx there's a 1-15% performance difference at the same clock speeds depending on the application. They take the biggest hit doing things like encoding video. Other than that they are very comparable, and even in 'worst case' scenarios, we're talking about a few seconds difference here. The only difference between the E2xxx, E6xxx, and E7xxx chips is onboard cache size.

The P4P800 has a Raidcontroller and two sata connectors (at least mine has) otherwise I wouldn't mention it. And there is much diffirence between some old noisy HD'ds and the new slightly faster but less noiser ones. It realy makes a diffirence if youve got more HD speed realy makes the rig feel allot faster.
I agree with the part that it cost money but than again what doesn't. Soon Big Bush Brother will tax your breathing so don't worry.

But nough said.

 

[Ride2kmax]

The P4P800 has a Raidcontroller and two sata connectors (at least mine has) otherwise I wouldn't mention it. And there is much diffirence between some old noisy HD'ds and the new slightly faster but less noiser ones. It realy makes a diffirence if youve got more HD speed realy makes the rig feel allot faster.
I agree with the part that it cost money but than again what doesn't. Soon Big Bush Brother will tax your breathing so don't worry.

But nough said.

Yuri,

Yes my P4p800 does have the sata connectors and never said anything about being agaisnt a raid setup,but right now i wont buy hhd's for raid first i want both systems up and running then maybe i'll do raid.

All this upgrades will be cover by the stimulus check ,I was planing ahead. 5/09.