Sub upgrade advice...

R

Rockferd

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Joined
Jun 25, 2010
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427
Hey all,

Recently I've had the urge to upgrade my sub somehow. I currently have a Dayton Sub 80. I recently have noticed just how muddy it sounds. I did some looking and noticed quite a few people have upgraded the woofer to a Tang Band W8-740P (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-854). Would I be better served by doing that, or buying a new, bigger sub? I'm only trying to fill at 13x16 room.

Thanks,
~Rock
 
You may want to ask that question on the Parts Express Tech Talk forum rather than this one as you probably get more DIY speaker builders on that forum. I would link but I was not sure if linking to another forum was allowed. Just google it.
 
What current sub do you have. Do you love your neighbours? twin 18" Elemental Designs A7-900 and its all over unless you are a svr fan.

Anyways subs can devided in two categorys. Mass controlled drivers and compliance controlled drivers.Mass controlled drivers tend to have low xmax and high sensitivity. These tend to be punchy and very loud and mostly used in live concerts for sound reinforcement or even car SPL competitions. Compliance controlled subwoofers which tend to be the majority of car audio subwoofers have high xmax, more weight, lower sensitivity, but more SPL in the lower frequency spectrum. Then there are of course hybrid drivers which are basically mixes of the two. Any driver in these categories can sound good or bad, but more important is being able to use the woofer where it performs the best. Using a low xmax woofer for subsonic content is probably not wise, likewise usinga high xmax low sensitivity driver for soundreinforcement is not going to be very effective. In truth, there is no best driver and most drivers can overlap these zones with good results.

Often times when people want more SPL, they really need higher sensitivity in the form of higher BL product or less moving mass, rather than more xmax because 50-60Hz is really what they are after. This is a very sensual frequency range for humans and much of the bass in music content exists in that frequency domain.

Subsonic would be those that dip below 20hz. You'll bottom out any sub that dips below 20hz without high pass filter protection.
 
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Spooony said:
What current sub do you have. Do you love your neighbours? twin 18" Elemental Designs A7-900 and its all over unless you are a svr fan.
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Lol, I'm in a small room. I currently have a Dayton Sub80, so looking to be <$300
 
Rockferd said:
Lol, I'm in a small room. I currently have a Dayton Sub80, so looking to be <$300
Click to expand...

was just kidding about the 2 300lbs monsters. They are neighbour killers.

Have you tried testing the sub in a different room? Have you calibrated it?

A nice upgrade would be the Dayton 120. Bang for buck
 
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Spooony said:
was just kidding about the 2 300lbs monsters. They are neighbour killers.

Have you tried testing the sub in a different room? Have you calibrated it?

A nice upgrade would be the Dayton 120. Bang for buck
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I figured/hoped ;p I'm in a dorm setting, so this about the only room I can use it. I think I should better describe what I want: A friend of mine bought an Onkyo HTIB for his similarly sized/shaped living room, only difference would be he has carpet. But his sub produces a lower, deeper "punchier" sound, which is what I'm looking for. I'm sorry if this isn't at all clearer.
 
Rockferd said:
I figured/hoped ;p I'm in a dorm setting, so this about the only room I can use it. I think I should better describe what I want: A friend of mine bought an Onkyo HTIB for his similarly sized/shaped living room, only difference would be he has carpet. But his sub produces a lower, deeper "punchier" sound, which is what I'm looking for. I'm sorry if this isn't at all clearer.
Click to expand...

this where people make a mistake in comparing subs. The best way to compare two drivers is to make two different systems based on the driver itself and ensure that the frequency responses are linear to the range you desire, and then compare those two systems in terms of dynamic headroom, SPL and distortion. Simply saying one system is louder or deeper in the same box is inappropriate. In one case it could be a something as simple as an under dampened driver ringing a lot more than an over dampened one at resonance causing a larger peak in low frequencies through out. It does not mean it¡¯s louder or deeper or better outright, it is simply non-linear, and all bets are off.

It may have just a better enclosure design and better factory IQ settings that sounds better out the box.

Do you have the specs of that sub cause Htib is a full setup and there are different models out there so I can't really compare it to tell why it sound deeper. Or just give me the model number of it.
 
Rockferd said:
I figured/hoped ;p I'm in a dorm setting, so this about the only room I can use it. I think I should better describe what I want: A friend of mine bought an Onkyo HTIB for his similarly sized/shaped living room, only difference would be he has carpet. But his sub produces a lower, deeper "punchier" sound, which is what I'm looking for. I'm sorry if this isn't at all clearer.
Click to expand...

In a dorm setting keep what you have.

If you insist on an upgrade...
For about $300 you can get the eD A2-300.
 
450 said:
In a dorm setting keep what you have.

If you insist on an upgrade...
For about $300 you can get the eD A2-300.
Click to expand...

I'm not looking to go louder, but richer, and deeper.

Spooony said:
this where people make a mistake in comparing subs. The best way to compare two drivers is to make two different systems based on the driver itself and ensure that the frequency responses are linear to the range you desire, and then compare those two systems in terms of dynamic headroom, SPL and distortion. Simply saying one system is louder or deeper in the same box is inappropriate. In one case it could be a something as simple as an under dampened driver ringing a lot more than an over dampened one at resonance causing a larger peak in low frequencies through out. It does not mean it¡¯s louder or deeper or better outright, it is simply non-linear, and all bets are off.

It may have just a better enclosure design and better factory IQ settings that sounds better out the box.

Do you have the specs of that sub cause Htib is a full setup and there are different models out there so I can't really compare it to tell why it sound deeper. Or just give me the model number of it.
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Sorry, I should have been more specific. It's not even Onkyo, it's this http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-YSTSW012-Front-Firing-Active-Subwoofer/dp/B000TQ4D8K
 
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HSU rules for good sounding bass. Get the smallest one and be amazed. You want it good, they got it.

No way that Onkyo HT sub is actually better though. Probably more the room and the setup w/ the receiver than anything. You will want to learn about that before you make an investment.
 
spaceman said:
HSU rules for good sounding bass. Get the smallest one and be amazed. You want it good, they got it.

No way that Onkyo HT sub is actually better though. Probably more the room and the setup w/ the receiver than anything. You will want to learn about that before you make an investment.
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It doesn't make much sense to me either. In that setup, it's beside the tv, not really expertly placed. He put it there cause it fit ;p. I'll admit, mine is in the center of my room, cause that's where the wire let's it be. I've had it under my desk, but then i still get that overly boomy/bottoming out, without the punch I'm looking for. I certainly could still be doing something wrong.
 
Many receivers have software that auto calibrates their speakers to the room. This makes a big difference in the sound.
 
spaceman said:
Many receivers have software that auto calibrates their speakers to the room. This makes a big difference in the sound.
Click to expand...

That receiver doesn't, I set it up for him manually, with a measuring tape and everything. All it does to the sub is xover
 
Rockferd said:
It doesn't make much sense to me either. In that setup, it's beside the tv, not really expertly placed. He put it there cause it fit ;p. I'll admit, mine is in the center of my room, cause that's where the wire let's it be. I've had it under my desk, but then i still get that overly boomy/bottoming out, without the punch I'm looking for. I certainly could still be doing something wrong.
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Try a corner nearest where you're sitting.

Otherwise, that HSU STF-1 I linked will completely smoke your Dayton.
 
I can say that the Hsu STF-1 is a very nice sub for an 8" driver. Its quite tall but it really does give rich sound. It mates very nicely with the Dayton DIY RS621 bookshelf speakers. Also Pete at Hsu Research is very friendly.

However, I cannot give you a comparison of how it does against the Dayton Sub80 since I never listened to the Sub 80 nor the TangBand upgrade you suggested.
 
Just going by the reviews on Parts Express, at least some people have actually tried swapping in the Tang Band. Other than that, I don't know.

What are you using this sub for? The percentage of movies vs. games vs. music. What kind of music do you listen to?

I picked up this from Parts Express a few weeks ago: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=309-175 It's supposed to be a copy of their old Dayton HSU10, designed by Dr. Hsu, renamed the Dayton ES10 Elite Series: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-392

I'm fairly happy with it so far. Maybe not quite as tight as I too like (perhaps even approaching an un-natural level plus it's still breaking in), but rather musical.

For example, the standing bass in the Avett Brother's "Paranoia in B Major" sounds excellent and rather defined (could be slightly better, but I'm not sure of the recording quality). The bass guitar in the Jesus Lizard "Skull of a German" drones like the song should. It can also play the warbling, really low (for pop music) bass line in the Flaming Lips' "Felt Good to Burn" well. mc chris sounds quite good, too, in general. It seems to get flabby with a a lot of Kayne West as the volume goes up, but I think he mixes that stuff to get at least a little boomy and loose (gotta make those cars rattle).

The other sub I considered was considering was the Emotiva Ultra 10, which is $30 cheaper now and comes in right at your $300: http://emotiva.com/ultra_sub10.shtm Even with a good Hsu sub, if tightness is above volume and impact, you may need so go with something sealed like that.
 
Not in the question, but what is the rest of your setup?
 
450 said:
Not in the question, but what is the rest of your setup?
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I might get flak for trying to upgrade the sub while still having the following:

Dayton T-amp
B652 speakers.

Mid-range/highs sound fine to me, so I haven't had the urge to touch them.
 
Rockferd said:
I might get flak for trying to upgrade the sub while still having the following:

Dayton T-amp
B652 speakers.

Mid-range/highs sound fine to me, so I haven't had the urge to touch them.
Click to expand...

thats a nice setup i dont think anyone will give you any crap.
 
Rockferd said:
I might get flak for trying to upgrade the sub while still having the following:

Dayton T-amp
B652 speakers.

Mid-range/highs sound fine to me, so I haven't had the urge to touch them.
Click to expand...

Have you thought about going straight to big floorstanding speakers?
 
Rockferd said:
I have, but I don't have the space, nor the ability to transport them easily.
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Also I think part of the reason your sub might not be doing so well is due to the t-amp.

Receiver's will have better bass management. Borrow a receiver and try it out with your speakers and sub.
 
450 said:
Also I think part of the reason your sub might not be doing so well is due to the t-amp.

Receiver's will have better bass management. Borrow a receiver and try it out with your speakers and sub.
Click to expand...

I'm not using the high level out from the t-amp to the sub. The sub is connected through RCA from my x-fi, and the t-amp is connected to the sub's RCA out. I've tried having the x-fi xover, but that didn't sound as good to me, don't know why.
 
Hmmm. Sounds like you won't get as much benefit from a new sub as you would a receiver with room correction.

Denon AVR 591 would make a big impact on your sound. Audessey room calibration does a neat job of calibrating the speakers response to your sitting position. Honestly, I would spend the $$ on a good source and build out from that. It has worked for me so far.
 
Hsu STF-1: known to be a very musical subwoofer and the best warranty on parts.
 
In addition to havermeyer's suggestions, I'll also add the Allison AL10 - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=309-177&FTR=al10 -which appears to also be another HSU STF2-derived clone.

It's a bit cheaper than the 10" buyout, and also has a 25W advantage (assuming both drivers are identical, in terms of sensitivity, etc.).

I've had it for awhile and couldn't be any happier. Definitely does the job, especially for near-field listening. Cleanliness rivals my DIY Dayton Quatro 15", 17hz-tuned ported sub, although I haven't auditioned both at the same spot in the house, in all fairness.

Not boomy whatsoever, after AVIA calibration.
 
spaceman said:
Hmmm. Sounds like you won't get as much benefit from a new sub as you would a receiver with room correction.

Denon AVR 591 would make a big impact on your sound. Audessey room calibration does a neat job of calibrating the speakers response to your sitting position. Honestly, I would spend the $$ on a good source and build out from that. It has worked for me so far.
Click to expand...

So I messed around with my room today, and while position closer to a wall gave me a louder sound, it didn't produce a richer one. I think I'm going to seriously consider the STF-1
 
Even if you bought the STF-1 it might not sound great.

Borrow a receiver and try it out.
 
450 said:
Even if you bought the STF-1 it might not sound great.

Borrow a receiver and try it out.
Click to expand...

I'll try that when I can. In the meantime, I used a mic and created a freq response graph from my seating position for the entire system.



It's a crappy mic, so I'm not putting much faith into this, but as you can see, there's a pretty steep drop past 45hz or so. This is with the sub on the side of the room. I do realize it thinks the <100hz range is louder, but audibly it isn't, so i'm chalking that up to the mic.
 
If you bookshelf speakers are the B652, then aside from the TangBand upgrade for the Sub80, you can consider the Silverflute upgrade for the B652s. There is a poster in the reviewers for that speaker on the Parts Express website (I think the person's signon name was joeljoel or something like that), who discusses how he upgraded the B652s using some Silverflute drivers and a better capacitor for the crossover.

You can contact Pete at Hsuresearch and see when the next sale for the STF-1 is going to come around. He is very helpful.
 
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