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Structured Wiring Closet Server Cooling

D

dirtrider

Limp Gawd
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
135
I'm doing some remodeling and have a closet I'm planning to build that is pretty much in the center of my house and will be used as a structured wiring closet and will also house a hp 24u server rack. In the future this will serve as central media store and perhaps even hold amps. It is in the lower level on the slab and is not on an exterior wall of the house. The closet will be a little shy of 4' deep and 3' wide. PVC pipes come in at the top through a wall from the floor upstairs which continues to the attic. All the wires from all rooms drop through these pipes to this closet. Wiring panels will be put on the wall and obviously the server rack is on the bottom. At first I was just planning to use a vented closet door. Since everything is down now and about to be built I figured I should rethink whether it is worth putting in some cooling now. I am not spending a fortune on this and will be heat conscious when purchasing equipment. Wondering what my options for cooling are though.

The rack has a built in slider type thing on the top made for taking exhaust ducting. I'm thinking maybe I just hook up a duct to it perhaps with some kind of inline fan or something maybe triggered by a thermostat in the closet and that would suck up hot air and vent it out of the closet. Then the air would be sucked into the cabinet in the front through the vented closet door. At least that provides some circulation and exhausts hot air (into the rest of the house). Anyone know of something made for this purpose? Any other ideas?
 
unless you are planning on installing a secondary filtering system on the duct work just before the equipment and unless you are going to run the AC year round, im thinking tying in the duct work to it is a bad idea
 
nobody_here said:
unless you are planning on installing a secondary filtering system on the duct work just before the equipment and unless you are going to run the AC year round, im thinking tying in the duct work to it is a bad idea
Click to expand...

Read closer. Not going to tie into house ducting. This would just be independent ducting to facilitate circulation in and out of the closet. It is just an idea though I have never seen it done and was looking for comments or other ideas.
 
Strangely enough I am about to do the same thing. I have a closet that currently has my server in it but I want to integrate a 24u rack and want way better cooling solution. I was going to do the same as you with a ventilated closet door but decided I want to find a way to exhaust the hot air into a different part of my home (attic, crawlspace, something). So far I haven't come up with any really fantastic ideas. Having a permanent low maintenance cooling solution isn't easy. As I am not on a slab I am thinking about using the cooler air from under my home to cool the closet. In your case being on a slab it is way more difficult. I guess it depends what costs you want to pay for cooling (ex small BTU AC unit) how much noise you want (water pumped somewhere else) and what your other structural concerns are. If you want to whip up a small drawing with some measurements I'd be happy to help brainstorm ideas as I want to accomplish the same thing. Cheers and good luck.
 
A HP four post rack will take up quite a lot of space, in fact, you won't even be able to get in behind that cabinet. You should look at a two post solution IMO or something that can slide and pull out easily.

You will also have heat issues unless if you have really great ventilation and/or very low powered gear.
 
You are going to get really hot in that closet.

I am doing something similar. I plan to buy a second air conditioning unit to cool my room when I may want to run heat in the rest of the house.

Where do you live? Hot or cold climate? I plan to run outside air into my computer room during the cold months to save on electricity.
 
work wouldn't spring for the AC here so i have a high powered fan blowing the heat up the back of the server rack and out the ceiling tiles and a huge grate on the door lol

but an exhaust fan on a thermostat or just always on like a bathroom fan type thing exhausting outside with a grate on the door might be all you need, im running an NF500 NAS, 4x2850 2u and a pair of 1u servers, 4u nortel phone system and 4u gateway server with 4 gb 24 port switches and this works fine for me, its a little warmer than id like but not to bad.
 
Pocatello said:
You are going to get really hot in that closet.

I am doing something similar. I plan to buy a second air conditioning unit to cool my room when I may want to run heat in the rest of the house.

Where do you live? Hot or cold climate? I plan to run outside air into my computer room during the cold months to save on electricity.
Click to expand...

I would not recommend using outside cold air to cool your systems down. It's not recommended due to the humidity control or the lack thereof.
 
Ockie said:
I would not recommend using outside cold air to cool your systems down. It's not recommended due to the humidity control or the lack thereof.
Click to expand...

Really?

Like not recommended at all? a really bad stupid "No don't do it" kind of thing? I can save lots of money on electricity if I use the cold outside air.

I agree... I would have no control over humidity.
 
Pocatello said:
Really?

Like not recommended at all? a really bad stupid "No don't do it" kind of thing? I can save lots of money on electricity if I use the cold outside air.

I agree... I would have no control over humidity.
Click to expand...

Well you end up spending more money humidifying the air than actually using the existing inside air. Your air conditioner should be able to do a much better job (more efficient) at colder temperature environment so it should not be that much more to cool during the cooler months... plus, you might be able to use that added heat. There are some heat pumps out there that would help you with your situation and economizing your cooling needs using the outside air.

You also risk of having too cold air and who knows what else may contaminate with the air. A basement would be ideal because you can still maintain your humidity and control the air while having it in a very cool environment.... but I assume you don't have one of those :(
 
Is humidity that important?

For my home use? I realize that in a data center temperature and humidity are everything. But in a home I was hoping to get by without worrying about such things. Of course, this is all new to me.
 
You could always just have an exhaust fan in the closet controlled by a thermostat that dumps the hot air into the attic.
 
Ockie said:
This is a good idea/advice.
Click to expand...

Actually, it's a bad idea if the house is air conditioned. That results in heat dumping in the wrong place. The duct work needs to get to the outside through a one-way. (Meaning outside air doesn't get back in. I forget the technical term.)

Using outside air to cool is possible. If you're willing to also install a great deal of migraine inducing humidifying and dehumidifying equipment, then connect it up to black boxes and GPIO pins. So yeah, no, you don't wanna.

But the most important part is making sure outside air doesn't get back in. That's got your major particulates and fun stuff, plus your humidity and so on. And no, just putting a "dryer flap" isn't sufficient. Even without directly venting outside the house, you'll get crap right back in it. You'll need a filter in the path, regardless, but putting it on one end or the other is fine. (Put it somewhere easy for you to work on. Seriously.)
An HVAC specialist will be better able to tell you the box I'm talking about - it's a positive/negative air pressure controlled door, basically. When outside air pressure exceeds the fan generated air pressure, it shuts to keep outside environment from blowing in. You want to have a very high power fan here; not just CFM, looking at static air pressure (in. H2O) ratings closely as well.

As for the arguments that you should get a 2 post rack versus a cabinet? NO. You get a cabinet because a cabinet IS ON WHEELS. A 2 post rack must be bolted to the floor. A cabinet can be rolled out. The cabinet is unquestionably easier to work on. Just get PDUs, run a pair of 20A-30A circuits, and leave enough slack in the rest of the cabling that you can move the cabinet to work on it.

Edit: Oh yeah. And don't carpet it either. In case you didn't know that part. (I'm guessing you did though.) ;)
 
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AreEss said:
Actually, it's a bad idea if the house is air conditioned. That results in heat dumping in the wrong place. The duct work needs to get to the outside through a one-way. (Meaning outside air doesn't get back in. I forget the technical term.)
Click to expand...

HVAC systems does not use Attic air. Unless if he's referring to a finished or usable attic. So it would actually be quite feasible, the added heat in the attic would not do much harm and will help in the winters.

AreEss said:
An HVAC specialist will be better able to tell you the box I'm talking about - it's a positive/negative air pressure controlled door, basically. When outside air pressure exceeds the fan generated air pressure, it shuts to keep outside environment from blowing in. You want to have a very high power fan here; not just CFM, looking at static air pressure (in. H2O) ratings closely as well.
Click to expand...

Yeah that is called a electronic dampener with a fan. It's probably a little overkill, but why else are we mounting rack cabinets in closets ;)

AreEss said:
As for the arguments that you should get a 2 post rack versus a cabinet? NO. You get a cabinet because a cabinet IS ON WHEELS. A 2 post rack must be bolted to the floor. A cabinet can be rolled out. The cabinet is unquestionably easier to work on. Just get PDUs, run a pair of 20A-30A circuits, and leave enough slack in the rest of the cabling that you can move the cabinet to work on it.
Click to expand...

You do get two posts with wheel kits and you do also get two posts with slide floor rails. Check AVS Forum for some ideas. Worst case with a two post you have to reach around, at least you are able to.
 
Worst case scenario just put a ducted fan in (also known as a ducted extractor) and then a dryer vent outside and leave the thing on. You should be ok. Just make sure that there is enough space with the doors for air to flow in.
 
 
Another approach would be to use a panasonic bathroom exhaust fan. They are pretty quiet, compact, and move a lot of air, and are pretty durable. I have seen a few people use them to ventilate large closets that have computer racks in them. I think they push a lot more air than the ducted fan, and power consumption isn't too bad.
 
Make sure you separate the hot and cold sides of the rack as well as is practical as well.
 
mikesm said:
Another approach would be to use a panasonic bathroom exhaust fan. They are pretty quiet, compact, and move a lot of air, and are pretty durable. I have seen a few people use them to ventilate large closets that have computer racks in them. I think they push a lot more air than the ducted fan, and power consumption isn't too bad.
Click to expand...



if you use a bathroom fan that is on 24/7 it will remove all your cooled A/Ced air from your entire house in about 3 hrs... depending on size.

the lost efficiency of running a closed HVAC system with a fan pushing air into the attic or out the roof is enough to care about....

there are a lot of people over at AVSforum that recommend not dumping hot air into the attic but rather dump it into the AC return, an adjacent room or something like that to keep the system "closed"


just FYI.

I live in Fresno,CA and my A/Ced air is expensive and necessary.

I am using a duct fan and a themostat to dump air from my closet into the laundry room and then using a thermostat to turn on the bathroom fan in the laundry room if that room gets too hot.

Hot air dumping, thus making an open system, is my last resort and shoud only occur when the AC in not turned on anyways.
 
Ockie said:
Looks like you did your work. That should be great.
Click to expand...

THAT'S the duct I was trying to remember! Barometric pressure vent.

And the reason you don't dump to the attic is because of heat bleed and no return. It screws up A/C systems because you're now bleeding heat from the ceiling and into the ductwork in the attic, but the A/C system has no return up there to recapture or exhaust the heat.
 
Adidas4275 said:
if you use a bathroom fan that is on 24/7 it will remove all your cooled A/Ced air from your entire house in about 3 hrs... depending on size.

the lost efficiency of running a closed HVAC system with a fan pushing air into the attic or out the roof is enough to care about....

there are a lot of people over at AVSforum that recommend not dumping hot air into the attic but rather dump it into the AC return, an adjacent room or something like that to keep the system "closed"


just FYI.

I live in Fresno,CA and my A/Ced air is expensive and necessary.

I am using a duct fan and a themostat to dump air from my closet into the laundry room and then using a thermostat to turn on the bathroom fan in the laundry room if that room gets too hot.

Hot air dumping, thus making an open system, is my last resort and shoud only occur when the AC in not turned on anyways.
Click to expand...

Actually, the folks I know who used it had the cloest fed from the subfloor or crawlspace, and then through rack, and then exhausted into the attic. This basically keeps the HVAC for the closet isolated from the house. You don't want yo have to spend $$$ cooling down the air heated up by the computers.

But if you are on slab or otherwise have no intake other than house air, then I agree with you, esp. in climates where there is a big delta from outside to inside temps.
 
Adidas4275 said:
I am going to use one of these
http://www.techmall.com/Suncourt-6-Inch-Diameter-Normally-Closed-Electroni-p/47745.htm
in my AV closet... with

http://www.techmall.com/Suncourt-6-Inch-110vac-250cfm-In-Line-Duct-Fan-p/28174.htm

and

http://www.techmall.com/Suncourt-Duct-Stat-Duct-Fan-Thermostat-DS100-p/28501.htm


or here is a pressure sensitive duct, so less wiring..
http://www.techmall.com/10-Inch-Diameter-Barometric-Pressure-Relief-Bypass-p/28290.htm
Click to expand...

I'm liking these. Thanks for the links. I am no hvac expert and no computer rack/server/structured wiring expert either (though I am a developer). I still think my original idea is best though. Let the house a/c handle the cooling. Just make sure there is good circulation in the closet from the bottom up. The house is a closed system already (mostly) so no need to take in or exhaust other air that can mess things up and probably raise heating/cooling costs. It is on a slab on the lower level (basically like a basement) so it stays pretty cool year round. I should be able to make sure the front of the rack is closed up except where the devices are. Then I just use the back duct opening to basically run some ducting up and out of the closet to dump out the side into the hall. Inline fans in the ducting along with the fans in the server cases help push the air out and negative pressure sucks it in from the front. I will have a mass of hard drives. Already have 16TB between two separate boxes right now. But I think if I run pretty low power stuff it should work out.

Also, AreEss, my idea exactly with using the full hp rack and having the wheels leaving enough slack to pull it out. Rack already has 2 pdus in it for 240 volt so I'll run a 30 amp 240v and 20 amp 120v circuit to the closet. I just need to come up with a creative ducting solution that allows me to perhaps lift the duct to slide it out of the rack so that I can pull the rack out. Perhaps airseal fabric...used on aircraft along engine baffles to fill the void between them and the cowling which creates another ~.5atm pressure to force air down through the cooling fins of the engine and out the bottom of the cowling...I knew building experimental aircraft during my teenage years would pay off someday... :)
 
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AreEss said:
THAT'S the duct I was trying to remember! Barometric pressure vent.

And the reason you don't dump to the attic is because of heat bleed and no return. It screws up A/C systems because you're now bleeding heat from the ceiling and into the ductwork in the attic, but the A/C system has no return up there to recapture or exhaust the heat.
Click to expand...

Actually there is no risk dumping into the attic, especially in colder weather environments when this heat can actually be more beneficial than dumping the heat outside.

I've seen some energy efficient configurations where the heat output is placed into the attic during winter months, this creates another form of insulation and makes better use of the disposed energy. In the summer you don't want to dump too much heat in there because it's the reverse, but this system should not provide that much heat to have a negative effect on the hot days.
 
Suppose I am using an inline fan to take air out the top of the cabinet to exhaust in the hall or a return air duct. It would be nice to have that inline fan triggered by a thermostat. Any bright ideas on how to make this happen? Just use a regular house thermostat and I guess a relay?
 
Pocatello said:
Really?

Like not recommended at all? a really bad stupid "No don't do it" kind of thing? I can save lots of money on electricity if I use the cold outside air.

I agree... I would have no control over humidity.
Click to expand...

A couple of companies are currently thinking about using outside air to reduce DC cooling costs, however, they still filtrate the air... more to read:
http://searchdatacenter.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid80_gci1246084,00.html
or a google search on "airside economizer"
 
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