Street Lights with Electric Car Charging Sockets Prototyped

[Terry Olaes]

BMW has prototyped some street lights that contain charging sockets for electric cars. Munich will be the pilot location for the "charging lights." That's a pretty cool idea.

"Seamless charging infrastructure is essential if we want to see more electric vehicles on the road in our cities in the future," Peter Schwarzenbauer, Member of the Board of Management of BMW AG, said. The Munich pilot will install the first charging lights, which can be grafted straight onto the existing local authority street lighting infrastructure, BMW said.

 

[Trimlock]

"Is this 220 or 110?"

 

[Dekoth-E-]

Someone doesn't understand that electricity isn't free..

 

[Ducman69]

In socialist Germany, gas stations are also now free? Soon their tax rate will be 75%.

 

[dragonstongue]

taxes, delivery etc massively pay for that electricity, they really should be focusing on making vehicles less reliant on things that are not able to be regenerated easy such as solar, wind, water so forth and electric vehicles especially the older shall we say trains that rely on wires to provide the juice are more economically friendly overall.

Leave the petrol for stuff that there is simply no viable alternative at this point. Hell just where I live they charge a flat $140/mth even if power is off at breaker, and whatever is a little over double that final cost for delivery and so forth, old lines are not the consumers problem but hydro companies are making a fortune on "making sure we keep up to date, reliable infrastructure" oh so paying out pennies on the dollar, but making dollars on the pennies overcharging

Hey the light poles are already there, why not use them for extra things, heck even just phantom power alone if "saved" adds up huge, why make extra stations in specific places taking up more land, use the poles already there ^.^

 

[Advil]

You don't understand. Nobody understands. They listen but choose not to hear.

The electric grid capacity of any area will collapse long before any meaningful number of electric cars can be put on the road.

Any industrialized nation would have to rebuild its entire electricity infrastructure to support a large number of cars going electric. I believe the collapse would happen long before 50%. Probably 10-30% will do it.

We can not do what would be necessary to support it. We can't rewire the cities for it and we can't being the needed power generation online.

And by can not, I mean not in our lifetimes. This would be a 100 year change. On the scale of everything we've done from the invention of the electric light until now. This can't be done on a 10 or 20 or even 30 year timetable. The investment we have in our current infrastructure is too high. We have to wear out what's there, then change. But it's worse than that because no one ever imagined power delivery on this scale.

Fuel is still the only real option. Fuel you can put in and consume. We are a full lifetime away from technologies that will make electric any kind of viable on a mass scale.

 

[dragonstongue]

It is all on how it is done, always has been.

The whole system petrol as well is not sustainable, is has been proven more and more so over the last decades.

They can do as an example specific areas meant for this, exactly like in certain business you have color coded wire boxes to ensure a specific power is used that could be best used for the above idea.

To rule it out just because it is not feasible on a whole does not mean it is not in part. The government at least here does a gas guzzlers tax and so forth, why in the hell is that not used for further investment and refinement to get the power grids up to snuff in North America at least? or at least to modernize it by doing shorter runs more localized generation to keep it much more efficient for a longer period of time.

Light poles already have what amount of power pushing through them?, if the power is already being pushed into them then they can deliver this power, that seems a simple math to me, and I am quite terrible at it.

if pole has X power going up it, then it must be able to supply Y, if vehicle being plugged into it needs Z then your good to go. The structures, and overall generation is already there OR we would not have these light poles in the first place LOL.

I do get what you are saying, but as with anything, they usually refine it before it gets put out there. Current energy use and production is not sustainable, once they get into more solid state type of storage then solar, wind and such generation and a per location generation method will make a hell of a lot of sense, as will factories and shops that chew up mega watt of power, they should be helping to produce as much as they can, cause they use a lot of it which hurts the overall grid and makes it more $ for everyone in the long run.

anyways.

 

[Advil]

A typical city street lamp might use a 100 watt high pressure sodium lamp.

A car charging on a plug at the base of that lap will be consuming THOUSANDS of watts.

A car or two charging at each lamp down a major city street? Times dozens or hundreds of streets?

The numbers are astronomical.

It is the same thing if everyone starts charging at home. Thousands of extra watts at every home during peak usage hours in the evening...

Holy hell we have brownouts every summer NOW due to overtaxing the system.

city "Please reduce your power using in the evening..."
citizen "But if I don't charge my car I can't go to work in the morning..."

Or rolling blackouts... imagine the extra load hammering the system as people try to get a little charge on their cars every time the power comes back on in an area.

It's mind boggling.

 

[Gorankar]

Someone doesn't understand that electricity isn't free..

They are pay to charge stations. Think of them like parking meters.

 

[sfsuphysics]

It is the same thing if everyone starts charging at home. Thousands of extra watts at every home during peak usage hours in the evening...

Holy hell we have brownouts every summer NOW due to overtaxing the system.

city "Please reduce your power using in the evening..."
citizen "But if I don't charge my car I can't go to work in the morning..."

Meanwhile you have people using thousands of extra watts, cooling because "dur I deserve to live in a desert and be comfortable" or heating "because its easier to build electric heaters into homes rather than hook them up with gas" or cooking (same as heating). This is just another drain on the grid.

 

[dragonstongue]

lets see, a light takes 100w which is 100w per hour correct. what is that based on 110v 220v?
either way it sucks back 100w, a vehicle plugged into it does not necessarily need to pull 10kw to charge itself, they have cars designed to pull household power from a standard 110v 15a plug, am sure they might even have them that pull 12v but higher amperage or whatever.

Anyways point is, am quite certain they will weigh out the various factors and not cause a melt-down.
Full electric vehicle is not going to happen very well for now, to costly in every way, however, hybrids that only need a small amount of juice to "top up" if you factor in numerous things makes it much more reasonable.

I get what you are getting at, but honestly, many power companies simply are charging god awful prices for something that have had a LONG time to keep up to par, they don't care much or it would have been done by now. Who is to say they cannot put solar panels on every damn light post to help, bury piezo electric in the road ways to reduce burden etc etc etc.

Think big, not on the small possible step

 

[dr/owned]

I'm guessing Germans pay insanely high taxes. It's not a trivial task to just drop a high current outlet on a street corner and expect everything to be hunky dory. You have to probably install a new transformer nearby, rerun all your wiring, maybe dig a bigger trench because the old one can't hold the fatter cabling, etc etc. Not cheap. Especially in established areas. The east coast has a shitty power grid compared to the west coast because it was mostly laid down 100 years ago.

 

[Advil]

You have to push at least 2000w (a large home circuit) to get anywhere at all charging a car. I don't think hardly anyone has a good grasp of how much ENERGY it takes to move a car. These batteries hold a LOT. I mean, a LOT.

For example, a current Tesla battery pack holds 85 KWh. That's kilowatt hours!

It takes 10 hours at 2000w to fill it roughly 25%.

Think on that and you'll get the scope of my argument. 10k of those charging in one small town? I think not.

And they may have new packs soon that hold 160KWh.

A decent size solar panel you can put on a lamp post might generate 50w at peak on a super bright day for a couple of hours. Less the rest of the time. Won't amount to squat.

I'm not saying electric cars can't work... I'm saying they can't work with the technology we have. Not even close.

 

[nutzo]

They are pay to charge stations. Think of them like parking meters.

And when you ad the profit, overhead and taxes, the cost to charge your car will be almost as expensive as filling the tank with gas on a Hybrid or small car.

 

[SnowBeast]

Not in Detroit. They will have gutted the damn pole light and charge box. And the wiring.....

 

[nutzo]

You have to push at least 2000w (a large home circuit) to get anywhere at all charging a car. I don't think hardly anyone has a good grasp of how much ENERGY it takes to move a car. These batteries hold a LOT. I mean, a LOT.

For example, a current Tesla battery pack holds 85 KWh. That's kilowatt hours!

It takes 10 hours at 2000w to fill it roughly 25%.

This also doesn't include that the electrical panel/wiring coming into most home would never be able to handle the load of a car charging, along with the air conditioner and a couple kitchen appliances all at the same time.

Another way of looking at it, is that a typical central air conditioner draw around 3,000-5,000 KWh
A 240 volt, 40 amp circuit, will charge a Tesla at 9KWh in 9.5 hours, This is like 2-3 Air conditioners running all night.

Just imaging the meltdown on a hot day, with people plugging in their cars and running their air at the same time.

 

[Grahamkracka]

This also doesn't include that the electrical panel/wiring coming into most home would never be able to handle the load of a car charging, along with the air conditioner and a couple kitchen appliances all at the same time.

Another way of looking at it, is that a typical central air conditioner draw around 3,000-5,000 KWh
A 240 volt, 40 amp circuit, will charge a Tesla at 9KWh in 9.5 hours, This is like 2-3 Air conditioners running all night.

Just imaging the meltdown on a hot day, with people plugging in their cars and running their air at the same time.

The wiring in peoples homes isn't a problem. The grid capacity in the heat of the summer may be, but most houses would have no problem with that load running through it. My neighbors have a Model S in their house that was built in 1970. Having their car plugged in during a summer day in the desert hasn't burned their house down yet.

 

[Gorankar]

And when you ad the profit, overhead and taxes, the cost to charge your car will be almost as expensive as filling the tank with gas on a Hybrid or small car.

I don't deny that. Just responding to a post regarding electricity not being free.

By the time elecric cars become the majority, the government will have alll the necessary taxes and fees in place to insure revenues remain the same or increase. I have no doubt.

 

[InvisiBill]

Keep in mind that you only have to recharge the capacity you've used. Unless you drive 265 miles a day, you don't need to recharge the full 85KWh of a Tesla's battery every night. If you only drive 100 miles daily, it's only about 3.5 hours (or 5 hours @ 6.6KW 28A) to recharge it. Chevy chose ~40 miles of battery capacity on the Volt as the sweet spot of where it should cover most people's daily driving, so if you're average and only drive 50 miles, you can cut those times (or power draws) in half too. If everyone can top-up everywhere, you don't need 85KWh for each parking spot all the time, just a shot here and there as people come and go. The total power usage from the grid is the same whether you draw half the current for twice as long or twice the current for half as long, so the trick for EV usefulness is getting the charging station's capacity high enough to recharge the EV in the average amount of time spent parked there (without costing a fortune or causing huge spikes to the grid).

I agree that we don't currently have the infrastructure to support every gas vehicle becoming electric instantly, but a lot of people seem to be assuming that every EV will need a full, huge charge every time it stops moving. You don't buy a tankful of gas every time you pass a gas station, do you?

This also doesn't include that the electrical panel/wiring coming into most home would never be able to handle the load of a car charging, along with the air conditioner and a couple kitchen appliances all at the same time.

My 100 year old house (which still has cloth-insulated wiring in places) with 100A service recharges my Volt every night. I have central air and kitchen appliances too. As Grahamkracka said, the wiring in individual homes most likely isn't a problem, though the combined increase in load on the grid could be.

Another way of looking at it, is that a typical central air conditioner draw around 3,000-5,000 KWh

I think you mean 3,000-5,000W (or 3-5KW). KWh is a measurement of capacity, not draw. And 5,000KWh would fill up my Volt's battery 480 times and give me 18,000 miles of gas-free driving.

 

[Uvaman]

This also doesn't include that the electrical panel/wiring coming into most home would never be able to handle the load of a car charging, along with the air conditioner and a couple kitchen appliances all at the same time.

Another way of looking at it, is that a typical central air conditioner draw around 3,000-5,000 KWh
A 240 volt, 40 amp circuit, will charge a Tesla at 9KWh in 9.5 hours, This is like 2-3 Air conditioners running all night.

Just imaging the meltdown on a hot day, with people plugging in their cars and running their air at the same time.

You do realize that ICE engines waste most energy in heat losses right?
Is not like you need to produce & transfer electric energy equivalent to all the gas we use.

 

[nutzo]

lets see, a light takes 100w which is 100w per hour correct. what is that based on 110v 220v? either way it sucks back 100w, a vehicle plugged into it does not necessarily need to pull 10kw to charge itself, they have cars designed to pull household power from a standard 110v 15a plug, am sure they might even have them that pull 12v but higher amperage or whatever.

100 watts is .83 amps at 120 volts, and about .4 amp at 240.

10kw, is 100 times the current, so it would be 83 amps at 120 volts - not going to happen as you would need a huge cable to handle that amount of current. That's why the typical 120v plug is limited to charging at around 12 amps, or 1.4kw. That's over 7 hours to add a 10kw charge, or 60 hours (2.5 days) to fully charge a Tesla 85kw battery. Charging a Tesla on a 120v plug adds about 4 miles of range per hours, so assuming a 12 hour over night charge, you would add around 50 miles.

As for 12v, no street legal electric car is ever going to use 12v for charging. Even at 50 amps (which would require a very thick cable), you would only get 600 watts.

however, hybrids that only need a small amount of juice to "top up" if you factor in numerous things makes it much more reasonable.

If you are referring to plug-in Hybrids, then I'd agree. They generally have a small all-electric range of 15-20 miles, so it's possible to fully charge them overnight off a standard 120v plug. If you have a short commute you can stay in all electric. If you have to take a longer trip, then it runs like a regular hybrid, and it's an easy/quick full up at the gas station.

 

[Ocean]

Would be an awesome idea to take advantage of (store) peak solar.

 

[nutzo]

The wiring in peoples homes isn't a problem. The grid capacity in the heat of the summer may be, but most houses would have no problem with that load running through it. My neighbors have a Model S in their house that was built in 1970. Having their car plugged in during a summer day in the desert hasn't burned their house down yet.

It won't burn down their house, (although there have already been a few cases of electric car fires), it would blow the main breaker. Being built in the 70's, unless they have a large home, or upgraded the electrical system, they likely have a 100 amp panel. This is currently the minimum on new homes, and most builders now install 150 or 200 amp panels.


Problem is that most people have more than one car.
Try charging 2 cars at the same time as the air conditioner is running.
With most older homes having a 100 amp panel, each car requires 40 amps (this is all at 240), and central air usually draws around 20-30 amps. Do the math.

Before I moved out of the home I grew up in, we had 5 cars (parents & kids). Would have been impossible to charge them all.

 

[sfsuphysics]

Another way of looking at it, is that a typical central air conditioner draw around 3,000-5,000 KWh
A 240 volt, 40 amp circuit, will charge a Tesla at 9KWh in 9.5 hours, This is like 2-3 Air conditioners running all night.

Ok this hurts my brain.
KWh is a total energy usage. KW is a power draw. Saying central ac will draw 3k-5k KWh is saying how much energy they'll use in a given time, I don't have AC so I'm not sure if you mean over a month, or they use 3000 KW which is the same as saying it uses 3 megawatts, so I'm guessing you mean an AC actually draw 3000-5000 watts of power.

To charge 9KWh of Tesla over 9.5 hours would mean you are only using about 1kW of power per hour, which is tiny. So going by what was said I'm guessing you're taking the 85KWh battery and charging it full in 9 hours... which sure fine is a lot of power to draw.

But peoples poor choices aside, how much of that Tesla battery do you think you'll use in a day? The range on the 85kWh Tesla is officially 265 miles, lets just modify that to realistic of 175 miles and assume lead foot driving. Most peoples daily commute is going to be on the order of 20-40 miles per day, so they're only going to use 10-20% of the total battery, which means in any given night they only need to charge for 10-20% of that 85kWh, or 8.5kWh worth of juice (which given electric rates could cost you less than a dollar depending upon where you live). And all of a sudden that 2-3 AC units number doesn't make much sense, and it's more along the lines of the same power draw as someone running the AC for a few hours a day, which people tend to run a lot longer.

Just imaging the meltdown on a hot day, with people plugging in their cars and running their air at the same time.

So who do we blame? People who want to go to work the next day, be productive members of society, actually doing something? or people who want to feel comfortable at home while watching TV?

Any way you slice it, we're all selfish on some level, the brownouts that occur because of people using AC really shows it. The argument that "oh if I'm the only one who uses it..." really doesn't work when everyone else says that same thing.

But anyone who's ever seen the LA area on a hot day, knows that gas cars need to go, or someone needs to make a catalytic converter that completely scrubs the output.

 

[nutzo]

so I'm guessing you mean an AC actually draw 3000-5000 watts of power. .

Yes that's what I meant, my fault for not double checking before I posted.

But peoples poor choices aside, how much of that Tesla battery do you think you'll use in a day? The range on the 85kWh Tesla is officially 265 miles, lets just modify that to realistic of 175 miles and assume lead foot driving. Most peoples daily commute is going to be on the order of 20-40 miles per day, so they're only going to use 10-20% of the total battery, which means in any given night they only need to charge for 10-20% of that 85kWh, or 8.5kWh worth of juice (which given electric rates could cost you less than a dollar depending upon where you live).

Which gets to the real issue. Electric cars are fine for most people most of the time. It's that other 10%, where you need to take a long trip, you have an emergency and need to go somewhere after work (before you have time to charge the car) or someone simply forgets to plug it in to charge it that's the problem.

If your kid leaves your gas tank on empty, you just need to make it to the nearest gas station and in a few minute you are on your way. With an electric car, you will be calling in late while you wait a few hours for it to charge.

Also, Tesla is the exception when it comes to range (and of course it's expensive because of the large battery). Other, more affordable electric cars on the market are only in the 80-100 mile range.






And all of a sudden that 2-3 AC units number doesn't make much sense, and it's more along the lines of the same power draw as someone running the AC for a few hours a day, which people tend to run a lot longer.



So who do we blame? People who want to go to work the next day, be productive members of society, actually doing something? or people who want to feel comfortable at home while watching TV?

Any way you slice it, we're all selfish on some level, the brownouts that occur because of people using AC really shows it. The argument that "oh if I'm the only one who uses it..." really doesn't work when everyone else says that same thing.

But anyone who's ever seen the LA area on a hot day, knows that gas cars need to go, or someone needs to make a catalytic converter that completely scrubs the output.[/QUOTE]

 

[nutzo]

Sorry, hit enter too soon.

As for LA, I've lived in Southern California all my life, and I can tell you the air quality is much better than it was in the 60's and 70's. It's amazing how much the it has improved especially considering how many more cars are on the road.

 

[zkostik]

Not sure about power capacity this will require but I doubt these will be free. Many garages in Wash DC area here have chargers and these things are like gas pump, you stick your CC in it and it will bill you as it charges the car. I don't have a plug in car but just because these chargers become available, it doesn't necessarily mean they will be free for all. If they do make them free, it will just give people incentives to pork on the street and occupy spots next to the charging outlet. They would have to seriously bump taxes to pay for this as well.