Still confused about possibility of reinstalling Vista Ultimate

[tdx]

Hi everyone,

I'm just about ready to buy Vista Ultimate, but, even though I've searched these forums extensively, I still have two questions:

1. I own a genuine XP Pro disc that came with my laptop. I have successfully installed it many times over on various machines throughout the years. Can I buy the Vista Ultimate upgrade and upgrade from that XP disc? Or does the fact that it's OEM prevent me from upgrading?

2. More importantly, once i buy Vista Ultimate, how many times can i reinstall it if I change my hardware? Zero? Only once? More? Also, is it only the full version of Ultimate that allows me to reinstall, or is it the same with both the upgrade and the full version?

Thanks, TDX

 

[Archer75]

You can use the upgrade.

You can reinstall as much as you want.

 

[msny]

Hi everyone,

I'm just about ready to buy Vista Ultimate, but, even though I've searched these forums extensively, I still have two questions:

1. I own a genuine XP Pro disc that came with my laptop. I have successfully installed it many times over on various machines throughout the years. Can I buy the Vista Ultimate upgrade and upgrade from that XP disc? Or does the fact that it's OEM prevent me from upgrading?

2. More importantly, once i buy Vista Ultimate, how many times can i reinstall it if I change my hardware? Zero? Only once? More? Also, is it only the full version of Ultimate that allows me to reinstall, or is it the same with both the upgrade and the full version?

Thanks, TDX

1) For a Vista upgrade WinXP MUST be installed on your computer's hard disk first.
It will NOT verify that you have any kind of WinXP disc, MS has removed disc
verification for Vista upgrades.

2) You can reinstall (clean install) it as many times as you like as long as WinXP
is installed first. From what I have read a motherboard change will force you
into a reactivation. Similar to WinXP, but MS has said they will be more strict about
it now for "security".

OEM rules are that the upgrade has to be on orginial equipment tied to you
WinXP or Vista install.

This is my understanding, please feel free to straightner me out if my facts
as I understand them are in error. I am in the same boat as the OP.

 

[CommanderFrank]

Just make sure that the Ultimate version is at least an Upgrade and not OEM....you should have no problems changing out hardware with minimun activation calls. MS will probably be fairly strict in the beginning, but as sales increase they will slack off back to the XP standards.

 

[Archer75]

1) For a Vista upgrade WinXP MUST be installed on your computer's hard disk first.
It will NOT verify that you have any kind of WinXP disc, MS has removed disc
verification for Vista upgrades.

2) You can reinstall (clean install) it as many times as you like as long as WinXP
is installed first. From what I have read a motherboard change will force you
into a reactivation. Similar to WinXP, but MS has said they will be more strict about
it now for "security".

OEM rules are that the upgrade has to be on orginial equipment tied to you
WinXP or Vista install.

This is my understanding, please feel free to straightner me out if my facts
as I understand them are in error. I am in the same boat as the OP.

OEM versions are tied to the motherboard. All other hardware may be upgraded as much asyou want.

MS said they are LESS strict about reactivations. Originally they said you would have 10 activations and then they pulled that limit.

 

[tdx]

OEM versions are tied to the motherboard. All other hardware may be upgraded as much asyou want.

MS said they are LESS strict about reactivations. Originally they said you would have 10 activations and then they pulled that limit.

Thanks for all the responses. So, does that mean that my OEM copy of WinXP that came with my laptop can only be reinstalled on my laptop? I'm asking because I've already reinstalled it many times on other machines without a problem. So it doesnt look like it's tied to my laptop's motherboard. if that's the case for Vista, then I'll run to the store and get one today.

 

[TECHKnight]

It is not tied by any technical means, but by the license agreement. According to licensing, it should only be installed on the machine it was purchased with.

 

[tdx]

It is not tied by any technical means, but by the license agreement. According to licensing, it should only be installed on the machine it was purchased with.

Understood. But as of now, I can still use to upgrade to Vista ultimate, right?

 

[Archer75]

Understood. But as of now, I can still use to upgrade to Vista ultimate, right?

Yes

And the Vista OEM is tied to the board. It won't activate if you move it from one system to another.
XP OEM is tied to that computer by the agreement but nothing that can actually stop you from trying to. This is where XP and Vista differ.

The Vista OEM versions are all full versions, not upgrades. I am running Vista Ultimate 64 OEM now.

 

[TheRapture]

1) For a Vista upgrade WinXP MUST be installed on your computer's hard disk first.
It will NOT verify that you have any kind of WinXP disc, MS has removed disc
verification for Vista upgrades.

You do NOT, at least at this point, have to have ANYTHING installed on your hard drive. You simply need a RETAIL Upgrade of Vista available, boot from it, DO NOT enter the cd key...then make sure you select the proper version of Vista that you indeed have in your dvd drive....now....install as normal....with no cd key. When you get to the desktop for the first time, simply run the "upgrade" feature of the dvd and UPGRADE your existing 30 day Vista install (which was created by NOT entering the cd key the first time around), and this time DO ENTER the cd key.

Now you still have your original XP license to use on another computer.


Yes it works. Yes, it's legal.

 

[BIGDADDY51]

You do NOT, at least at this point, have to have ANYTHING installed on your hard drive. You simply need a RETAIL Upgrade of Vista available, boot from it, DO NOT enter the cd key...then make sure you select the proper version of Vista that you indeed have in your dvd drive....now....install as normal....with no cd key. When you get to the desktop for the first time, simply run the "upgrade" feature of the dvd and UPGRADE your existing 30 day Vista install (which was created by NOT entering the cd key the first time around), and this time DO ENTER the cd key.

Now you still have your original XP license to use on another computer.


Yes it works. Yes, it's legal.

Does it work? Yes. Is it legal? You'd have to point me to a Microsoft statement that says so. Upgrading an UNPURCHASED copy of Vista with an upgrade disc, to avoid using the OS that should be used, hardly seems legal to me. I guess we will all know pretty soon. What I can't get, is just what part of UPGRADE doesn't anybody understand?

 

[Archer75]

Does it work? Yes. Is it legal? You'd have to point me to a Microsoft statement that says so. Upgrading an UNPURCHASED copy of Vista with an upgrade disc, to avoid using the OS that should be used, hardly seems legal to me. I guess we will all know pretty soon. What I can't get, is just what part of UPGRADE doesn't anybody understand?

It's an upgrade in that you already own XP. Not an upgrade in that you are just putting it on top of XP.

You still have to own a legal copy of XP and a legal copy of vista.

 

[BIGDADDY51]

It's an upgrade in that you already own XP. Not an upgrade in that you are just putting it on top of XP.

You still have to own a legal copy of XP and a legal copy of vista.

Exactly, with XP installed, you have the option of a CUSTOM install, which is a full install, that is tied to the old OS coa. What COA is the dual install of Vista tied to? In effect, you have a upgrade key that is being used on a full version of Vista, with NO previous OS required.

 

[Archer75]

Exactly, with XP installed, you have the option of a CUSTOM install, which is a full install, that is tied to the old OS coa. What COA is the dual install of Vista tied to? In effect, you have a upgrade key that is being used on a full version of Vista.

an upgrade is a full version, You just get it for cheaper because you have XP.

With XP installed you have to go over the top of it. So it's not a clean install at all. This method just makes it so you don't have to have XP installed just to install vista. Which is how upgrades worked in the past. You only had to have the original OS disc for verification. It never "tied" itself to that key or anything.

 

[TheRapture]

Upgrading an UNPURCHASED copy of Vista with an upgrade disc, to avoid using the OS that should be used, hardly seems legal to me. I guess we will all know pretty soon. What I can't get, is just what part of UPGRADE doesn't anybody understand?

Can you READ??? I stated I ALREADY BOUGHT TWO COPIES OF VISTA ULTIMATE UPGRADE...I paid MONEY for them.....you missed the entire contents of the discussion I think....


I did not actually upgrade a prior OS, I took my brand new, LEGALLY PURCHASED copy of Vista...installed it WITHOUT the cd key onto a FRESHLY formatted BLANK drive....that gives you a LEGAL 30 day trial of Vista. Just like the one MS themselves offered for download just a few weeks ago...then I simply used my LEGAL dvd of Vista Ultimate Upgrade, and "upgraded" my trial copy.

 

[Archer75]

Can you READ??? I stated I ALREADY BOUGHT TWO COPIES OF VISTA ULTIMATE UPGRADE...I paid MONEY for them.....you missed the entire contents of the discussion I think....


I did not actually upgrade a prior OS, I took my brand new, LEGALLY PURCHASED copy of Vista...installed it WITHOUT the cd key onto a FRESHLY formatted BLANK drive....that gives you a LEGAL 30 day trial of Vista. Just like the one MS themselves offered for download just a few weeks ago...then I simply used my LEGAL dvd of Vista Ultimate Upgrade, and "upgraded" my trial copy.

I think the issue is that you used an upgrade copy of vista and didn't upgrade from XP which was the point of the upgrade. To verify and provide a discount to owners of XP.

If you can just use a copy of Vista upgrade and not have to provide any verification of owning XP then why would anyone ever buy the full retail when they can get the cheaper upgrade?

 

[TheRapture]

MS made the dvd that way, by not having to insert a prior OS disk of some sort, nor did they REQUIRE an existing OS install.

In fact, MS themselves announced the workaround of doing it this way....

 

[Archer75]

MS made the dvd that way, by not having to insert a prior OS disk of some sort, nor did they REQUIRE an existing OS install.

In fact, MS themselves announced the workaround of doing it this way....

Well the offical upgrade install required an installation of XP. At least to install properly, with the cd key and all.
An upgrade does require a preinstallation of XP or it's not an upgrade. I very much doubt microsoft would sell an upgrade and a full version for two different price points that do the same thing.

 

[TheRapture]

An upgrade does require a preinstallation of XP or it's not an upgrade. I very much doubt microsoft would sell an upgrade and a full version for two different price points that do the same thing.

But that is exactly what they did......and "officially" it may "want" to see an existing XP or Win2k install, but it does not "require" it....

Not being an ass, just stating what does and does not work. I think if MS tried to sue a guy for using the "upgrade" dvd on a blank hard drive, suffice to say, they would lose on the grounds that the software indeed allows it, not to mention MS themselves posted that very workaround.

 

[Archer75]

But that is exactly what they did......and "officially" it may "want" to see an existing XP or Win2k install, but it does not "require" it....

Not being an ass, just stating what does and does not work. I think if MS tried to sue a guy for using the "upgrade" dvd on a blak hard drive, suffice to say, they would lose onthe grounds that the software indeed allows it, not to mention MS themselves posted that very workaround.

I do not believe Microsoft ever intended for this to happen like this. Nor have I seen micorsoft release info to the public on this. You have a link?

 

[TheRapture]

I do not believe Microsoft ever intended for this to happen like this. Nor have I seen micorsoft release info to the public on this. You have a link?

Wellllll...let me tell you this. I have a friend at MS....works directly on Vista associated stuff, and I am told, that in NO WAY, is it ILLEGAL to use the upgrade DVD on a blank hard drive. MS "prefers" you to have the legacy media already installed on the machine that you are using the Vista upgrade on, but certainly does NOT require it to be so.

In fact, he tells me that all MS wants is for the buyer of the upgrade to already own a legal legacy copy (Win2k or XP) of the media. So, with that in mind, if you upgrade a Win2k installation, how would MS ever know that you upgraded from it? Since you do not have to give the cdkey of the old media to MS in any shape, form, or fashion....and Win2k does not use the activation method like XP. why should Win2k owners be allowed to re-use the legacy media, while XP owners can't? That won't hold up in a court of law for sure.

http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2174211/microsoft-won-patch-vista


Another little quote....from an inside MS "bulletin":

Microsoft's internal documentation does explain how to clean install Vista using an Upgrade version. It appears to be more of a workaround than a true clean install, however. Here's what it says.

1. Boot with the Windows Vista Upgrade DVD.

2. Click "Install Now."

3. Do not enter a Product Key When prompted.

4. When prompted, select the Vista product edition that you do have.

6. Install Vista normally.

7. Once the install is complete, restart the DVD-based Setup from within Windows Vista. Perform an in-place upgrade.

8. Enter your Product Key when prompted.

 

[Archer75]

Wellllll...let me tell you this. I have a friend at MS....works directly on Vista associated stuff, and I am told, that in NO WAY, is it ILLEGAL to use the upgrade DVD on a blank hard drive.

In fact, he tells me that all MS wants is for the buyer of the upgrade to already own a legal legacy copy (Win2k or XP) of the media. So, with that in mind, if you upgrade a Win2k installation, how would MS ever know that you upgraded from it? Since you do not have to give the cdkey of the old media to MS in any shape, form, or fashion....and Win2k does not use the activation method like XP.

I call BS.

Otherwise why make the upgrade even require a previous windows XP install in the first place? Instead they make you go through this long convoluted process of getting Vista upgrade installed cleanly when they could have made it a simple step without all this nonsense. And they wouldn't have had to sell an upgrade and full version. It's because this was never intended to happen. It was an oversight on microsoft's part.
The install disc verifies a previous version of windows is installed when installed correctly. You have to do this long work around to bypass that and trick the installer.

And there has been NO offical post by microsoft on this. An internal document is not an official release.

And from your link:
"People without a licensed copy of XP that use this workaround are violating the terms of use agreed to when they purchased the upgrade version of Windows Vista," a Microsoft spokesman told vnunet.com.

 

[TheRapture]

And from your link:
"People without a licensed copy of XP that use this workaround are violating the terms of use agreed to when they purchased the upgrade version of Windows Vista," a Microsoft spokesman told vnunet.com.

You are staring the answer in the face, yet you refuse to see it.....the article states, explicitly..."without a licensed copy of XP", well, I do in fact, own a legal licensed copy of XP....and one of Win2k as well.


And you can call BS all you want, but that does not change the facts. I do have a long time friend at MS, two of them in fact, and I have talked to them personally about this, one of them just a few minutes ago. So now that I have provided some good feedback, you start to call me a liar? Well I guess I know that I got to you then...why can't you just keep it a good natured, healthy discussion?

 

[Archer75]

And you can call BS all you want, but that does not change the facts.

You haven't posted any facts. No official statement from microsoft.

You have to be an idiot to believe that this is an intended feature, this long process of installing vista twice to get your upgrade copy to work, selling upgrade and full versions, it just doesn't make any sense at all. They wouldn't put in DRM, WGA, etc. just to make sure you have a legit copy and then not care if pirates use a cheaper upgrade copy as a full version.
If this is what they really wanted they wouldn't be selling an upgrade and full version. They wouldn't come up with this convoluted way of installing Vista twice. It makes the full version of vista absolutely pointless.

My 12 friends at microsoft all agree that you're full of it.

Use some common sense.

 

[TheRapture]

You haven't posted any facts. No official statement from microsoft.

You have to be an idiot to believe that this is an intended feature, this long process of installing vista twice to get your upgrade copy to work, selling upgrade and full versions, it just doesn't make any sense at all.
Use some common sense.

Of course it was never intended, it looks like an oversight, YOU use some common sense.

The FACTS are, it does work, and it is allowed, although frowned upon.

The FACTS are, I do own legal copies of my software, and I am using Vista legally.

Get over yourself!

 

[CommanderFrank]

Once again this is turning into a discussion of ethics and this isn't what this forum is for. I have stated this before and I will state it again for the record....if anyone wishes to install Vista twice on the same machine and it happens to run properly and activates, then fine....no harm, no foul. If you have a moral objection to this, log onto another forum and complain to high hell, but don't do it in this forum.

 

[TheRapture]

Once again this is turning into a discussion of ethics and this isn't what this forum is for. I have stated this before and I will state it again for the record....if anyone wishes to install Vista twice on the same machine and it happens to run properly and activates, then fine....no harm, no foul. If you have a moral objection to this, log onto another forum and complain to high hell, but don't do it in this forum.

roger that~ It's all good and I think the horse has been beat to death

 

[Archer75]

Of course it was never intended, it looks like an oversight, YOU use some common sense.

The FACTS are, it does work, and it is allowed, although frowned upon.

I never said it didn't work. All I said was this was never intended by microsoft.

You are the one going on and on about how Microsoft made it this way and released info to the public on how to do it. Neither of which is true.

The FACTS are, I do own legal copies of my software, and I am using Vista legally.

Get over yourself!

I never said you didn't own a legal copy. And I personally don't care if you do or don't.

 

[Zepher]

I would have preferred a Disc/Key check during upgrading since I personally don't want to install something twice or have to install an older OS. It just takes up too much time.

 

[BIGDADDY51]

I would have preferred a Disc/Key check during upgrading since I personally don't want to install something twice or have to install an older OS. It just takes up too much time.

If you use the UPGRADE correctly, you DON'T have to install anything twice, The old os is already installed. Just put in the disc, start setup ,and choose custom install.Vista does a full install and rolls the old OS into a windows.old folder that you delete after the install is finished.

 

[Zepher]

If you use the UPGRADE correctly, you DON'T have to install anything twice, The old os is already installed. Just put in the disc, start setup ,and choose custom install.Vista does a full install and rolls the old OS into a windows.old folder that you delete after the install is finished.

I am referring to upgrading your hardware with a new large main OS drive.

 

[BIGDADDY51]

I am referring to upgrading your hardware with a new large main OS drive.

The other option is a full version, either OEM or retail.The main reason for doing away with just the disc check, was to reduce piracy. They felt that one disc could easily be used to upgrade 10 pcs because there was no way to verify that the disc used was legit.and only being used on 1 pc.

 

[BillR]

There appears to be so much wrong or misread information out there it’s almost unbelievable. I hesitate to say it’s all the customer’s fault because quite frankly MS itself seems a bit confused about what is and is not Kosher.

The best information I have found so far is on the MS forum on the MS site. Please read all the posts, even though you will have to put up with the typical bitching from non-aware users.

My biggest surprise was to learn there are only two DVDs for Vista, PERIOD. Each DVD contains ALL the vista options. For instance, you purchase the cheapest OEM disk possible and when you go to install do not use a product key. This will allow you 30 days to evaluate what you have and see if you like it. If you find that Ultimate should have been your choice then call MS and pay the upgrade fee and receive a new key and like magic, with that same DVD you can reinstall to Ultimate.

For the rest of the fun, go here:

http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/co...&p=1&tid=ed0fec42-0410-4108-a119-09b7fe6eeefd.

A lot of the info there is direct from MS and while I can’t promise you what you read will or will not make you happy it will most definitely answer all if not most of your questions. I also promise you a few laughs along the way, honest.

Luck and enjoy

 

[Catweazle]

There appears to be so much wrong or misread information out there it’s almost unbelievable. I hesitate to say it’s all the customer’s fault because quite frankly MS itself seems a bit confused about what is and is not Kosher.

Microsoft isn't confused. It's simply spin-doctoring, because it doesn't want to openly admit that the only benefit a Full retail copy of Vista will give the purchaser over an above a Retail Upgrade version is a slightly quicker installation.

The MS discussion linked doesn't openly and accurately provide all the relevent information. A clean install can be conducted by choosing a Custom install, as mentioned. The thing can be installed without an XP installation in place, also as mentioned earlier. Microsoft just want the salespeople to keep spouting the PR line, is all.

I've written at length about Vista Upgrade versions here and here, in language that should make things clear to even inexperienced folk. I've also mentioned in those articles that, for the vast majority of people, choosing Ultimate over Home Premium is a complete waste of money!

 

[tdx]

Guys, since I'm the one who started this thread I felt I should respond; I certainly didn't think my question would lead to suh a heated debate (not that I mind, makes my reading more interesting).

But so far most of the discussions have focused on to whether or not we can upgrade Vista or not, while what I really want to find out is if it is possible to reinstall it ad infinitum once I buy a legal copy. i just want to know if I can feel secure upgrading my hardware (including the motherboard) without having to buy new copies of Vista every time.

If this isn't possible, fine, I'll accept it. If it is possible though, I would like to know how and in which conditions.

Peace

 

[Catweazle]

Yeah mate, if it's a Full retail or retail upgrade license you can reinstall it as many times as you like, despite hardware changes. A retail license allows you to do that, irrespective of whether it's a full retail install or retail upgrade install.

Same deal as XP. If Activation proves a problem you need only activate by telephone.


There's been some waffle spouted about intensified hardware checks under Vista, but don't pay too much notice. That situation applies to when you first install Vista. Bung it on a different system soon after and you'll trigger a query. But after the installation has been in place for a good while you should be able to move it to another system without any problems.

 

[Catweazle]

Sorry about the double post, but I've thought of something else which might make things clearer for tdx, and want to be sure he sees it. People tend to miss additional comments when they're made as an edit following a delay


A Vista Retail license is a Vista Retail license. You get one either by purchasing a Full Retail Product or a Retail Upgrade product. The most commonly found different license types are OEM licensing and Volume Licensing.

A Retail Upgrade product isn't a different license type to a Full Retail product. Same EULA. But an extra condition or three comes into play because you've obtained the license in the form of an Upgrade product. One of those conditions is that the product must be used to upgrade a pre-existing Windows license to the new product. The EULA for Vista states:

To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the software that is eligible for the upgrade. Upon upgrade, this agreement takes the place of the agreement for the software you upgraded from. After you upgrade, you may no longer use the software you upgraded from.

Nothing in there about being restricted to using it on the original machine. As a matter of fact, the EULA stipulates clearly that you are allowed to transfer it to another machine, in the section relating to reassigment of the license to other devices:

a. Software Other than Windows Anytime Upgrade. You may uninstall the software and install it on another device for your use. You may not do so to share this license between devices.
b. Windows Anytime Upgrade Software. The first user of the software may reassign the license to another device one time, but only if the license terms of the software you upgraded from allows reassignment.

That should make things really, really clear. Your retail upgrade package is a retail license, and you can continue using it after a system replacement or motherboard transplant, as many times as you want to. It doesn't even matter if you've used that Upgrade to change an OEM XP to a retail Vista license! It's legal.

You might strike hitches and glitches in doing so, if you've upgraded your license from OEM to Retail. Some people are claiming that the XP install you use to run the upgrade with needs to be activated, and perhaps the OEM disk won't activate later on. Who knows? Who cares? It doesn't matter, because you can use the 'Install Vista as a trial then install Vista as a product' trick to get you licensed installation onto the new machine if you need to.

Some people might carry on a bit about the need to install an OS twice in such a scenario. Buggered if I know why. The Vista install is much less interactive than the XP install, so I'd use the 'Install Vista from Vista' trick no matter what. Run the trial install, come back when it's done, run the final install. It only seems like it'd be a problem who sit there watching the kettle boil, to be honest!


The real problem is going to be for people who use the ridiculous 'Anytime Upgrade' scheme as a pathway to Vista Ultimate. As mentioned above, that scheme introduces a further restriction in that you are prohibited from transferring the license to another device more than once. It's sorta like an OEM license with a second chance. Dopey!

 

[msny]

OEM versions are tied to the motherboard. All other hardware may be upgraded as much asyou want.

MS said they are LESS strict about reactivations. Originally they said you would have 10 activations and then they pulled that limit.

Do you have linkage on the 10 count number?

 

[msny]

You do NOT, at least at this point, have to have ANYTHING installed on your hard drive. You simply need a RETAIL Upgrade of Vista available, boot from it, DO NOT enter the cd key...then make sure you select the proper version of Vista that you indeed have in your dvd drive....now....install as normal....with no cd key. When you get to the desktop for the first time, simply run the "upgrade" feature of the dvd and UPGRADE your existing 30 day Vista install (which was created by NOT entering the cd key the first time around), and this time DO ENTER the cd key.

Now you still have your original XP license to use on another computer.


Yes it works. Yes, it's legal.

What?? Please refer to there "official" approval of this install. The implication is that they MAY patch against this
technique when they want to.

"People without a licensed copy of XP that use this workaround are violating the terms of use agreed to when they purchased the upgrade version of Windows Vista," a Microsoft spokesman told vnunet.com.

"As such, we believe only a very small percentage of people will take the time to implement this workaround, and we encourage all customers to follow our official guidelines for upgrading to Windows Vista."

Microsoft added that it does not have any plans to disable the workaround at this time.

 

[Catweazle]

I wouldn't bother about a link. Basically there were early claims that Vista would only allow 10 activations before failing to reactivate. It was proposed as an anti-piracy measure, has since been rejected, and in any case it was simply a thing which would require a telephone activation which could be accepted or rejected at Microsoft's discretion.

I was reading a Microsoft-related Blog a few days back where mention was made that the restriction was gone from the final product.


Edit: Agree with msny. That method of installing is NOT a 'legal' method of retaining your earlier Windows license.