Steering wheel?

There is only one answer for that. For every racing game.

Logitech MOMO Force. Important! Not the MOMO racing Force wheel. That is good as a budget wheel but it´s a budget wheel.

I have no idea how good it is but Saitek has actually just releases a "Need 4 speed Underground force feedback wheel".

But nothing beats the pure quality/force feedback and control of the MOMO Force wheel.

Real Italian leather (no I ain´t kidding!), Aluminium pedals. Gorgeous looks and built to last forever! And the strongest force feedback available as well as the most accurate.

The only competitor is really Act Labs. They do got some better pedals than the MOMO Forces. There isn´t any more resistance on the breaking axis on the MOMO Force and it got the same travel as the gas pedal but you can´t have it all without paying multum.

If you get the performance pedals for Act Labs you get some really nice pedals. With Clutch and all. They have a tendency to have springs that breaks but the support from Act Labs is great it´s never a problem getting new ones.

So the best racing setup would be MOMO Force + Act Labs performance pedals + ev shifter.

But in term of wheel get the MOMO Force. When you have used it every other wheel look cheap.
 
Sorry, I just re-read your post and realised you answered that! Where might I find the Momo Force - it's not even on Logitech's site...
 
Originally posted by ianroberts
Sorry, I just re-read your post and realised you answered that! Where might I find the Momo Force - it's not even on Logitech's site...
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I think it´s not produced anymore. I am thinking it perhaps was a marketing thing for Logitech getting big at steering wheels. I guess they have to been pretty expensive to produce really. And yet they didn´t cost more than about 160$ or so.

Momo Racing wheel isn´t bad but it´s all plastic like the rest of the pack and the force feedback isn´t as good much because of that.

I don´t know what budget you are on too? And NFS Underground and especially HP 2 using a digital gamepad is actually preferrable. Steering wheels are really for racing sims like F1 2002/Grand PRIX legends/ GP 4 and Nascar games and Rally games like Rally Trophy.

Colin Mcrae 1 and 2 is awesome with steering wheels but sonce Codemasters went console their steering sucks in their new games Pro Race driver and Colin Mcrae 3. Those are just horrendous games that totally suck.

I mean a racing game where you can´t make proper use of a wheel isn´t a racing game.
 
I've decided to get the standard Momo, seeing as I've just had confirmation that the Force has been discontinued
 
Originally posted by ianroberts
I've decided to get the standard Momo, seeing as I've just had confirmation that the Force has been discontinued
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Well at least it´s cheaper on your wallet and it is quite good. Not pretty though.

Did you check up Saiteks newcomer? It´s similarly priced to the Momo Racing force and is marketed for the NFS Underground? I have no experience with that one though.
 
Wow - cool thread, was just thinking of getting somesuch myself.

Anyway, was dreaming about the Act Labs set, anyway.

So, you don't like the wheel for it? That's interesting, given how pricey it is! I certainly like the clutch and stick shift - seems unique in wheels these days.
 
Originally posted by dderidex
Wow - cool thread, was just thinking of getting somesuch myself.

Anyway, was dreaming about the Act Labs set, anyway.

So, you don't like the wheel for it? That's interesting, given how pricey it is! I certainly like the clutch and stick shift - seems unique in wheels these days.
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No, don´t get us wrong. There is nothing wrong with the Act Labs wheel. I just like the MOMO wheel a bit better but the Act Labs are in the same class really.

And between a Act Labs and MOMO Racing (not MOMO Force) there is a non contest really.
 
I own a MOMO Racing wheel and am very happy with it. I have not used any other wheel for my PC though so I can't say if it is worse or better than anything else.
 
how much are you willing to pay?. i got a logitec momo from bestbuy two weeks ago for 99, i saw a logitec steering wheel with force feedback for 39 dollars
 
I wasn't particularly bothered about the price - I wanted something that I wouldn't be disappointed with - I've ordered the Momo now - would have gone for the Momo force (I fancied an italian leather wheel!) but there not available any more.
 
*thread jack alert*

I have a Logitech PS2 GTA3 steering wheel sitting around and was wondering if you can use that on the PC? I don't have any racing games or else I would just try it out myself.
Anyone know?

If not, I don't know what to do with it since I don't have a PS2 around nor will EB take it(something about not taking specialty hardware).

Thanks.

Please forgive the jack.
 
Originally posted by MaxHardcore
Momo force, the precision force feedback wheel. Smooth as butter, accurate as a scalpel. Improved my nascar 2k3 lap consisitency alot. When TSW makes a ffb wheel I will go TSW, till then I love my momo force. (red one)

http://www.athlonxp.com/modules.php...wFile&file_wrap=html/reviews_momo_wheels.html
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Are there any reviews on the TSW? Is it only optimized for NASCAR games? I am not much into it. Kind of booring running in circles. You aren´t really going anywhere LOL. But it do bargain for close racing.
 
Tiny - you can buy adaptors for connecting PS2 controllers to USB ports... I have a couple of PS2 joypads connected to my PC. Not sure if they work with wheels but you might wanna look into it
 
Originally posted by oqvist
Oh Jeesus! Are there any reviews on those. They are god damn filthy expensive. That life time warranty sure makes up for some of it but how good are they? Force feedback?
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User reviews under feedback> http://www.thomas-superwheel.com/feedback.html

and they explain why they don't do FF in the Q&A section.....I first heard about them on the SimHQ forums........Thinking about the ACT setup for myself though :cool:
 
Originally posted by ianroberts
Tiny - you can buy adaptors for connecting PS2 controllers to USB ports... I have a couple of PS2 joypads connected to my PC. Not sure if they work with wheels but you might wanna look into it
Click to expand...

It already connects to the USB ports on the PS2. Guess I will have to pick up a cheapo game at Target to see if it works.
 
Originally posted by Jima13
User reviews under feedback> http://www.thomas-superwheel.com/feedback.html

and they explain why they don't do FF in the Q&A section.....I first heard about them on the SimHQ forums........Thinking about the ACT setup for myself though :cool:
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But user reviews are mainly from those who get sponsored by those wheels like Dale Earnhart and such. Are there any real reviews.

They not going force feedback you don´t need a Q&A to figure out. It´s for increased precision of course. It´s like why some disable force feedback on weapon effects in flight sims. To gain precision.

But are there any real professional reviews of those wheels? You can´t expect getting unbiased reviews by checking TSW homepage :rolleyes:
 
i do not use a steering wheel i use a wing man game pad that workds ver well for a fraction of the costs!!! one with force feedback will cost you 80- 100 dollars!!!!! so it is your choice!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Originally posted by tamt1200
i do not use a steering wheel i use a wing man game pad that workds ver well for a fraction of the costs!!! one with force feedback will cost you 80- 100 dollars!!!!! so it is your choice!!!!!!!!!!!
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try playing GPL, F1 2002 or Rally Trophy or Colin McRae 2 with a gamepad ;)

Gamepad are good for arcade games but totally sucks for sims. And they aren´t necessarily that much cheaper. You can get a Wingman formula force GP which is quite good for about the same price as a good gamepad.
 
to be honest, I dont believe a TSW could be "noticeably" smoother or more precise than my momo force, and the tsw lacks ffb.

The momo force (red one) has steel ball bearings and its smooth as butter.

Its just that good, shame its discontinued. I would look high and low to find one if I was looking for a wheel. They are out there somewhere.

Act labs would be my second choice.

Tsw my third since no ffb.
 
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Originally posted by Jima13
and they explain why they don't do FF in the Q&A section.....I first heard about them on the SimHQ forums........
Click to expand...

From their Q&A:

Force Feedback is not for hard-core racing. There are few games which do force feedback well enough to even consider it. Consistency and predictability are much more important factors in your lap times than feedback.
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I would, of course, disagree on concept - but, then, I'm more interested in rally racing than NASCAR or F1 or the like.

HOWEVER...I've never raced on a PC game with a wheel!

How IS Force Feedback on a PC? I've played a number of arcade games with it, and the effect was....well, not very compelling.

Using the hypothetical 'best game for the PC that uses FF'....how realistic does it feel?
 
Originally posted by dderidex
From their Q&A:



I would, of course, disagree on concept - but, then, I'm more interested in rally racing than NASCAR or F1 or the like.

HOWEVER...I've never raced on a PC game with a wheel!

How IS Force Feedback on a PC? I've played a number of arcade games with it, and the effect was....well, not very compelling.

Using the hypothetical 'best game for the PC that uses FF'....how realistic does it feel?
Click to expand...

Yeah that is total bullshit. Try games like GPL, Rally Trophy or F1 2002. There force feedback not only gives you much better realism it also help you feel the limits. You can feel when you have a slide coming. You are not solely dependent on your tires squeel noise.

The reason they state this is because if they want force feedback they will have to pay for it.

But they are right in some sense. It´s a bit of cheating racing without force feedback. You really have to work out hard to be able to complete a full race of f1 2002 or WRC. Those racers are really top athletes with top numbers on physical tests. Believe me try racing with a rally car that get their power steering broken. You can very easily break your arm in the progress.

Without force feedback you don´t have any forces to fight against. You aren´t a victim of friction as every real racer are.

So yes you gain precision by running without force feedback of course. But is it realistic?? Do real race drivers run without any force feedback? Would they want to?

And yes MOMO Force are really smooth as butter. But of course you can make it even smoother without applying those force feedback engines.

So yes in games like Nascar where you just go round and round all you loose is the immersion and realism. Your lap times won´t suffer however I doubt it will with the MOMO Force neither if you disable force feedback. It´s really smooth enough as it´s.

But try out Rally Trophy, f1 2002 or Grand Prix Legends and you know why god invented force feedback. I never run without it regardless of game really. It´s always better with force feedback to me. But then I ain´t racing just to get the best lap times. I am racing for fun and trying to simulate the real thing as close as possible.

Real drivers have to fight with the wheel and defy the rules of Newton. Why shouldn´t I?
 
Originally posted by oqvistOh Jeesus! Are there any reviews on those. They are god damn filthy expensive. That life time warranty sure makes up for some of it but how good are they? Force feedback?
Click to expand...

I'm not sponsored (and I don't think TSW gives free gear to anyone, FWIW) but the couple of times I've used a TSW sent my jaw to the floor.

My regular wheel is a Logitech Formula Force USB. It's an older wheel but until the Momo came along it was considered to be the best mass-market wheel you could buy. (I've played around with a Momo and it is only slightly better than the FF USB.)

Anyway, I picked up two seconds a lap at Sears Point and Watkins Glen in N4 the first time I used a TSW. The difference in precision is unbelieveable. It's like comparing something like a Toyota MR2 to a 70's Detroit luxobarge with overboosted power steering.



Originally posted by oqvistYeah that is total bullshit. Try games like GPL, Rally Trophy or F1 2002. There force feedback not only gives you much better realism it also help you feel the limits. You can feel when you have a slide coming. You are not solely dependent on your tires squeel noise.

The reason they state this is because if they want force feedback they will have to pay for it.

But they are right in some sense. It´s a bit of cheating racing without force feedback. You really have to work out hard to be able to complete a full race of f1 2002 or WRC. Those racers are really top athletes with top numbers on physical tests. Believe me try racing with a rally car that get their power steering broken. You can very easily break your arm in the progress.

Without force feedback you don´t have any forces to fight against. You aren´t a victim of friction as every real racer are.

So yes you gain precision by running without force feedback of course. But is it realistic?? Do real race drivers run without any force feedback? Would they want to?

And yes MOMO Force are really smooth as butter. But of course you can make it even smoother without applying those force feedback engines.

So yes in games like Nascar where you just go round and round all you loose is the immersion and realism. Your lap times won´t suffer however I doubt it will with the MOMO Force neither if you disable force feedback. It´s really smooth enough as it´s.

But try out Rally Trophy, f1 2002 or Grand Prix Legends and you know why god invented force feedback. I never run without it regardless of game really. It´s always better with force feedback to me. But then I ain´t racing just to get the best lap times. I am racing for fun and trying to simulate the real thing as close as possible.

Real drivers have to fight with the wheel and defy the rules of Newton. Why shouldn´t I?
Click to expand...


You're talking about what force feedback should be and what it actually is. They aren't the same.

If force feedback were accurate it would be a very subtle effect. You don't feel changes in centrifugal loading through your steering wheel when you're really driving until you've broken the traction circle. For true realism you'd want a FF chair that could somehow recreate the g-loading you would feel in the seat of your pants. The force feedback in the wheel would only recreate the changes in the slip angle of the steering tires as they reach the limit of traction.

Since we don't have gravity-inducing chairs, force feedback tries to deliver a sensation of g-loading by making you work harder to maintain a steering input as you increase the cornering effort. Some games (like GPL) do this better than others. But it is an artificial sensation. Worse, it is dependent on how well the hardware maker executes the instructions, and this is where mass-market force feedback wheels come up short. Even the best force feedback wheels use force feedback in an attempt to compensate for missing precision.

It's hard to understand until you've used a good wheel, but when you have the precision to place your car exactly where you want it in a corner a good game like the three you mentioned will give you visual and audio cues that are much more informative and realistic than force feedback. The end result is a difference in time. A driver with a FF wheel is waiting that extra fraction of a second for the mechanical sensations to be transmitted through the wheel, while the driver with a good mechanical wheel is responding to information cues coming from the screen and speakers, and using the greater precision to place the car exactly where he wants in the corners the first time.

And finally, I'll let the results speak for themselves. Pick any sim racing title (GPL, F1-2x, Rally Trophy, GP4, Nascar 2K3) and survey the fastest people competing in it. You will find that a great majority of the men and women who win regularly use a TSW or the equivilant, and none use force feedback.

The racesimcentral.com site and their forums are a great source for driving game information, downloads and tips. Good stuff.





BHD
 
Originally posted by BaldHeadedDork
I'm not sponsored (and I don't think TSW gives free gear to anyone, FWIW) but the couple of times I've used a TSW sent my jaw to the floor.

My regular wheel is a Logitech Formula Force USB. It's an older wheel but until the Momo came along it was considered to be the best mass-market wheel you could buy. (I've played around with a Momo and it is only slightly better than the FF USB.)

Anyway, I picked up two seconds a lap at Sears Point and Watkins Glen in N4 the first time I used a TSW. The difference in precision is unbelieveable. It's like comparing something like a Toyota MR2 to a 70's Detroit luxobarge with overboosted power steering.

You're talking about what force feedback should be and what it actually is. They aren't the same.

If force feedback were accurate it would be a very subtle effect. You don't feel changes in centrifugal loading through your steering wheel when you're really driving until you've broken the traction circle. For true realism you'd want a FF chair that could somehow recreate the g-loading you would feel in the seat of your pants. The force feedback in the wheel would only recreate the changes in the slip angle of the steering tires as they reach the limit of traction.

Since we don't have gravity-inducing chairs, force feedback tries to deliver a sensation of g-loading by making you work harder to

Anyone else tried those in other games than Nascar maintain a steering input as you increase the cornering effort. Some games (like GPL) do this better than others. But it is an artificial sensation. Worse, it is dependent on how well the hardware maker executes the instructions, and this is where mass-market force feedback wheels come up short. Even the best force feedback wheels use force feedback in an attempt to compensate for missing precision.

It's hard to understand until you've used a good wheel, but when you have the precision to place your car exactly where you want it in a corner a good game like the three you mentioned will give you visual and audio cues that are much more informative and realistic than force feedback. The end result is a difference in time. A driver with a FF wheel is waiting that extra fraction of a second for the mechanical sensations to be transmitted through the wheel, while the driver with a good mechanical wheel is responding to information cues coming from the screen and speakers, and using the greater precision to place the car exactly where he wants in the corners the first time.

And finally, I'll let the results speak for themselves. Pick any sim racing title (GPL, F1-2x, Rally Trophy, GP4, Nascar 2K3) and survey the fastest people competing in it. You will find that a great majority of the men and women who win regularly use a TSW or the equivilant, and none use force feedback.

The racesimcentral.com site and their forums are a great source for driving game information, downloads and tips. Good stuff.





BHD
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No I ain´t talking about what force feedback should be I am talking to what force feedback is in these games. Especially f1 2002:s force feedback. And Rally Trophy on my MOMO Force do give quite a good feeling on how it was to drive those cars with no powersteering. The FFB game in that game are strong I can tell you.

And even in modern games why do you see the racing pilots lifting weights all their free time? It´s not only high G:s that racers have to pull up with especially rally drivers/sport car drivers and f1 racers have to pull some force on the wheel to get it to go in the direction they want to and not the direction the cars want to. Nascar of course not as much since they are designed and setup to go left all the time.

And I am wondering why you would say that the MOMO is only slightly better than the Formula force GP? I have owned both. The newer Logitech Formula force GP which I replaced for my MOMO Force. The MOMO Force was twice as expensive and had subjectively speaking more than twice the performance of the old wingman.

There was really no high end steering wheels before the MOMO. Before the MOMO there wheren´t a wheel that costed more than say 80$. I remember when I first saw the MOMO and almost laughed as if anyone would pay that much for a wheel just because it got leather and aluminium :)

And as I said yes you can´t make force feedback wheels with the same precision as non force feedback wheels. The same goes to joystick too. And this is not only because of the force feedback of course but how they are constructed. Non Force feedback wheels don´t have to hook up to the engines that produce the force feedback.

That is one of the reason TSW probably don´t want to implement force feedback. Not because of there aren´t games that utilize it correctly since it are. It´s not 100 % like the real deal but that it can never be.

It´s because it seemed to be 90 % optimized for NASCAR and that game force feedback just isn´t needed for or suited for.

Good lap times don´t decide what wheel are the best really. As I have said non force feedback wheels is very much cheating if you ran simulation games like NASCAR, F1 games and some Rally games even if 95 % of the rally games don´t at all behaves like real rally cars. The only one which tries to simulate it is Rally Trophy which do a decent job of it. But noone would really want that since 95 % of us can´t really drive rally at the speeds the pro does. Rally is about as hard as it gets to master.

But that is one unbiased review so thank you for that :) If I want some non force feedback wheel I should look for a TSW one :)

Anyone else tried those in other games than Nascar?

BTW Michael Schumacher took a ride with Peter Solberg in the Swedish forests some month ago. He looked pretty sick when he got out of the car :D
 
And I am wondering why you would say that the MOMO is only slightly better than the Formula force GP? I have owned both. The newer Logitech Formula force GP which I replaced for my MOMO Force. The MOMO Force was twice as expensive and had subjectively speaking more than twice the performance of the old wingman.
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Ah, I didn't say the Formula Force GP. The GP was a later, $100 budget model Logitech came out with when the Formula Force USB didn't sell well at $170. (I got mine on sale for $150 in 2000.) To get the price down Logitech went with a cheaper cable-driven FF design instead of the USB's gear drive. If I heard correctly they returned to gear drive for the Momo. Anyway, the only thing the GP had in common with the USB was the Formula Force name.



There was really no high end steering wheels before the MOMO. Before the MOMO there wheren´t a wheel that costed more than say 80$. I remember when I first saw the MOMO and almost laughed as if anyone would pay that much for a wheel just because it got leather and aluminium
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Not true. In addition to the Formula Force USB, there was the ACT Labs RS and the first generation of Sidewinder FF wheels from Microsoft. Both were very good for mass-market wheels and retailed for around $150.

There are more than a few people (including myself) who have these older, top-end wheels who've tried the Momo and feel the only reason to upgrade is the leather and aluminum.



Good lap times don´t decide what wheel are the best really.
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What does? And I don't see how a more accurate and responsive controller can be called a cheat.




BHD
 
Originally posted by BaldHeadedDork
Ah, I didn't say the Formula Force GP. The GP was a later, $100 budget model Logitech came out with when the Formula Force USB didn't sell well at $170. (I got mine on sale for $150 in 2000.) To get the price down Logitech went with a cheaper cable-driven FF design instead of the USB's gear drive. If I heard correctly they returned to gear drive for the Momo. Anyway, the only thing the GP had in common with the USB was the Formula Force name.

Well that do explain some :)




Not true. In addition to the Formula Force USB, there was the ACT Labs RS and the first generation of Sidewinder FF wheels from Microsoft. Both were very good for mass-market wheels and retailed for around $150.

Oh I thought the RS came at the same time as the MOMO. But the sidewinder where the same price as my budget wingman and the Saitek too. I never thought of it as high end.

There are more than a few people (including myself) who have these older, top-end wheels who've tried the Momo and feel the only reason to upgrade is the leather and aluminum.





What does? And I don't see how a more accurate and responsive controller can be called a cheat.

Feeling and realism. If you take responsive literally MOMO Force just about pawns everything ;)

Cheating is to be taken lightly. It´s just you have less to fight against if you have no force feedback and in that sense the MOMO Force may be a bad choice since it got the strongest force feedback of them all thanks to it´s sturdy design.

I don´t know but non force feedback joysticks/wheels they just feel kind of.... dead.


BHD
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I have:

Logitech Momo Force
Act labs Performance Pedals
Act labs GPL shifter
Custom cockpit to fit everything in

I love this setup, it makes for the most realistic driving while still having somewhat of a budget :p
 
Originally posted by sethmo
I have:

Logitech Momo Force
Act labs Performance Pedals
Act labs GPL shifter
Custom cockpit to fit everything in

I love this setup, it makes for the most realistic driving while still having somewhat of a budget :p
Click to expand...
WHOA, how much did all those cost ya?
 
enter a quote here ..................................................................
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Oh sorry, there was a lot of quoting going on and I felt left out.:p
 
Originally posted by Tiny
Oh sorry, there was a lot of quoting going on and I felt left out.:p
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Spam of the day :rolleyes:

Have you really not seen quotes in this forum before :eek:
 
This is THE wheel and pedal set to get.

ECCI

otherwise, the Momo (red) with an aftermarket pedal set is about the best you can afford, because the ECCI set is mostly beyond reach.

Comet
 
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