STB Alternatives

[JOSHSKORN]

I'm looking into purchasing a new computer (an HTPC) with a 3 TB HD, installing a Ceton InfiniTV 4 with a CaptureCard. This computer would be attached to a HDTV.

What I want is to ditch all of my STBs in the house, the DVR included. I'd like to be able to watch TV through another computer or laptop and also another television that is not connected to the internet. My house is not "wired" so this particular TV has no internet port available.

For my laptops, I'm assuming the feed can be configured such that it's coming from a different computer on the network. I'm not sure how that works, exactly probably because I haven't looked into it. That's not my main concern, but if you know how to do that, please inform me.

Recently, I'd heard about "extenders". I don't know what they are, really, much less, what they do. But on my other TV (no PC connected), would I need something like this to view programming from my HTPC? I would need specific product ideas, too (i.e. Newegg/Amazon links). Or is this even possible without an attached PC?

 

[assassinhtpc]

The extender options are extremely limited. The xbox 360 is probably the best. Its extremely limited, imo.

 

[JOSHSKORN]

The extender options are extremely limited. The xbox 360 is probably the best. Its extremely limited, imo.

I forgot to mention, I don't have an XBOX 360. I'd heard of this, too.

 

[assassinhtpc]

What I am saying is that the xbox 360 is probably the best extender. In fact, I think its the only extender available currently. With all that being said I still think its pretty poor as an extender outside of playing back recorded TV.

You can buy some discontinued models on ebay but as they are discontinued so are the support and updates for them as well.

 

[kac77]

Recently, I'd heard about "extenders". I don't know what they are, really, much less, what they do. But on my other TV (no PC connected), would I need something like this to view programming from my HTPC? I would need specific product ideas, too (i.e. Newegg/Amazon links). Or is this even possible without an attached PC?

The term "extenders" is really an easy way of saying a less capable HTPC. Usually they are nothing more than front ends to your main HTPC without the tuners. You can build your own extender, or get some of the many that are prebuilt for you. XBOX360 is one if you are running Windows. If you are running Windows that's probably the only extender I would recommend actually. There are other options but they aren't for the faint of heart.

In Windows it is possible by using XBOX360's. You'll have to use a wireless router though since you aren't wired, and nothing less than 802.11n will be sufficient in my eyes.

 

[JOSHSKORN]

I wanted to revisit this topic. I have purchased the Ceton InfiniTV 4 card and I need to still order a cable card from Verizon.

For right now, I don't really care about my TV that is upstairs. That can wait a while, maybe even until the end of 2012.

There are other options but they aren't for the faint of heart.

@kac77, if you're still around, what are my other options? If anyone can assist, please chime in.

 

[danman]

HP made a media center extender (probably the best one), Dlink, Linksys. Check ebay.

 

[kac77]

@kac77, if you're still around, what are my other options? If anyone can assist, please chime in.

There's Popcorn Hour, WD Live, now there's Raspberry Pi (comes out next month). All three are cheaper than an Xbox (but not as capable). What the fit and finish is of the later I don't know yet but the former isn't too bad. But all them are good alternatives considering the price.

If you want something comparable to an Xbox in flexibility the next step up is to build your own. Here I tend to deviate. i3 2100's are overkill a G620 or and A4 3300 is really the top end in my eyes. If you want cheaper you can go as low as a Brazos setup. Until the new Atoms come online I would stay away from the current generation.

For HD I would get the smallest SSD I could find; The prices are now cheap enough to recommend especially for an extender. Cases?... go cheap. Lian Li's and Silverstones are nice but they are more expensive and really are not going to give you much if you stay within a certain power envelope. This box is likely in the same shelf as your amps and stuff; The super nice quality will be a waste. The case just needs to be well ventilated with a decent power supply. Put it on top of everything else (it's the smallest thing anyway) and you'll have no problems with heat.

Memory? Go cheap, For an extender 2GB min 4GB max. Spending an extra 5 or 10 bucks just because it's cheap isn't going to give you anything.

Now OS's, this is the hard part. If you want to stay below that XBOX price point then you'll be on Linux my friend most likely with XBMC. XBMC powers all of my extenders and my main HTPC and I personally love it. It's way more flexible than any Xbox in my eyes. Amazon Prime is getting pretty good... not a direct replacement for Netflix but not too bad either. The other plug ins can fill the void nicely. The G620 and A4 3300 can run most games. The Brazos you can run any 16-bit/32-bit console games you have on hand.

All totalled with either the G620 or A4-3300 you'll be slightly under 300 with remote. With Brazos (E-350), under 250 with remote.

 

[JOSHSKORN]

There's Popcorn Hour, WD Live, now there's Raspberry Pi (comes out next month). All three are cheaper than an Xbox (but not as capable). What the fit and finish is of the later I don't know yet but the former isn't too bad. But all them are good alternatives considering the price.

If you want something comparable to an Xbox in flexibility the next step up is to build your own. Here I tend to deviate. i3 2100's are overkill a G620 or and A4 3300 is really the top end in my eyes. If you want cheaper you can go as low as a Brazos setup. Until the new Atoms come online I would stay away from the current generation.

For HD I would get the smallest SSD I could find; The prices are now cheap enough to recommend especially for an extender. Cases?... go cheap. Lian Li's and Silverstones are nice but they are more expensive and really are not going to give you much if you stay within a certain power envelope. This box is likely in the same shelf as your amps and stuff; The super nice quality will be a waste. The case just needs to be well ventilated with a decent power supply. Put it on top of everything else (it's the smallest thing anyway) and you'll have no problems with heat.

Memory? Go cheap, For an extender 2GB min 4GB max. Spending an extra 5 or 10 bucks just because it's cheap isn't going to give you anything.

Now OS's, this is the hard part. If you want to stay below that XBOX price point then you'll be on Linux my friend most likely with XBMC. XBMC powers all of my extenders and my main HTPC and I personally love it. It's way more flexible than any Xbox in my eyes. Amazon Prime is getting pretty good... not a direct replacement for Netflix but not too bad either. The other plug ins can fill the void nicely. The G620 and A4 3300 can run most games. The Brazos you can run any 16-bit/32-bit console games you have on hand.

All totalled with either the G620 or A4-3300 you'll be slightly under 300 with remote. With Brazos (E-350), under 250 with remote.

Wow, thanks. I don't know if I mentioned this anywhere, but I have a HP TouchSmart near the TV and I can directly connect it. I don't know the exact model off the top of my head, but I know it was purchased in the Fall of 2010 (it has Windows 7 Home Premium). It does have built-in wireless 802.11n. It was purchased off of Home Shopping Network. Anyway, can THAT be used as my extender?

 

[LhasaCM]

With the Ceton card, you can also split the 4 tuners over your network to be able to watch live TV through another PC. (That's the "relatively easy but not ideal" solution rather than "not for the faint of heart.) If you don't think you'll need more than 3 tuners on the main PC at once (one to watch and two to record, or three to record), then you'd be fine. That's the easy route with your computer.

From what I recall, XBMC doesn't have native live TV support, but I've no idea how far anyone's gotten in adding that/a workaround/etc. as far as watching live TV on other machines.

 

[kac77]

From what I recall, XBMC doesn't have native live TV support, but I've no idea how far anyone's gotten in adding that/a workaround/etc. as far as watching live TV on other machines.

DP ...

 

[kac77]

From what I recall, XBMC doesn't have native live TV support, but I've no idea how far anyone's gotten in adding that/a workaround/etc. as far as watching live TV on other machines.

Natively no, I can't remember if Eden will have it. I get around it using Mythtv as my backend and the Mythtv plugin in XBMC. If I need all of myth's features I pull them through via launcher.

...Just checked it looks like Live TV made it into Eden. No need for launcher any more.

 

[kac77]

Wow, thanks. I don't know if I mentioned this anywhere, but I have a HP TouchSmart near the TV and I can directly connect it. I don't know the exact model off the top of my head, but I know it was purchased in the Fall of 2010 (it has Windows 7 Home Premium). It does have built-in wireless 802.11n. It was purchased off of Home Shopping Network. Anyway, can THAT be used as my extender?

I don't see why not. It probably already has MCE so software wise I wouldn't change a thing. Does it have DVI or (hopefully) HDMI out?

 

[Schro]

Lots of misinformation in this thread. I'll try to clear up as much as I can...

1. Streams other than OTA/broadcast recorded by the Ceton Card are about 98% certain to be infested with DRM, meaning they can only be played back on the PC that recording them was made on or through a Windows extender device. This means that other PCs on the network will NOT be able to play back the DRM infested content nor is a *nix doable for viewing this content (and therefore, by extention not a true STB replacement). The only true STB type replacements to watch cable are windows extenders.

2. Splitting the Ceton tuners across PCs will allow you to get multiple machines able to view copy protected content, but it will cause you to have a tuner on each (i.e. say you assigned a tuner to 4 different PCs), a non-shareable library (each PC's DRM infested content not playable on the others). This is why it is a bit of a hairy solution, as you won't have multiple tuners available to the same box (a problem for conflicts, as there's no tuner pool management capability built into windows).

3. With regards to extenders, everything has been discontinued other than the Xbox 360. You can still find the various other extenders on Fleabay for a reasonable price - i.e. under $100 for a DMA-2200.

4. I have found wireless to not be reliable enough for 720p streams coming from the Ceton card to an extender. I'm using Netgear MoCa adapters for the video.

I'm sure there's more, but that is a good start..

 

[kac77]

Lots of misinformation in this thread. I'll try to clear up as much as I can...

1. Streams other than OTA/broadcast recorded by the Ceton Card are about 98% certain to be infested with DRM, meaning they can only be played back on the PC that recording them was made on or through a Windows extender device. This means that other PCs on the network will NOT be able to play back the DRM infested content nor is a *nix doable for viewing this content (and therefore, by extention not a true STB replacement). The only true STB type replacements to watch cable are windows extenders.
.

This is actually incorrect. Whether content will play on other comps or not depends on the flag on the content (which is established by the provider, not Ceton). Stuff that's copy-freely isn't infested. The content where this problem would arise would be HBO, Showtime, and Pay-Per-View (copy-once). Everything else would not apply 90% of the time and would be easily shared to any extender he had. As you've stated copy-once even affects Windows so unless he's buying XBOX's for every room he'll have to abide by the same rules as any extender Win, Lin, WD Live etc. This is why earlier we all agreed that XBOX would be the best extender. After that things get dicey.

3. With regards to extenders, everything has been discontinued other than the Xbox 360. You can still find the various other extenders on Fleabay for a reasonable price - i.e. under $100 for a DMA-2200.

??

4. I have found wireless to not be reliable enough for 720p streams coming from the Ceton card to an extender.

There's more than a few people streaming content via wireless with Cetons here. 802.11G would be tight depending on the number. N? There's more than enough bandwidth for 720p. I prefer wired myself, but saying it can't be done via wireless reliably just is a little too far.

 

[LhasaCM]

2. Splitting the Ceton tuners across PCs will allow you to get multiple machines able to view copy protected content, but it will cause you to have a tuner on each (i.e. say you assigned a tuner to 4 different PCs), a non-shareable library (each PC's DRM infested content not playable on the others). This is why it is a bit of a hairy solution, as you won't have multiple tuners available to the same box (a problem for conflicts, as there's no tuner pool management capability built into windows).

As mentioned, the DRM is based upon the cable provider, not the individual PC, so it's not accurate to say you get non-sharable libraries. I've split off one of the tuners so I could watch live TV on a PC upstairs that was already there. I can record whatever I want (I don't have any premium channels like HBO/Showtime - those tend to flag more of their shows) through my provider and watch it wherever I want in the house. That does remove one of the tuners from the main machine that I schedule recordings on, but I've never had any conflict with that arrangement. I agree that splitting all 4 and sending them on their separate ways would lead to issues.

 

[JOSHSKORN]

I've split off one of the tuners so I could watch live TV on a PC upstairs that was already there. I can record whatever I want.

Sounds like you've essentially done the same thing I'm attempting to do. I have the Ceton card, haven't ordered the CableCard yet, but will do soon, then install it into my computer. I have FiOS, however, Verizon has only provided me with an 802.11g router. The PC upstairs is 802.11n capable. I should also note that I will be streaming the video from this PC, to a 61" SD TV. My house is not hard wired, so I will be dependent upon wireless.

Aside from the aforementioned equipment, what else will I need to get this system to work? Do I NEED to purchase a secondary 802.11n router, or considering that I'm only streaming SD, will 802.11g suffice? Do I need some other "extender" device, or will the PC do just fine? This is a HP TouchSmart, I forget the exact model. I understand I will be using Windows Media Center on the upstairs computer, but the question is, how do I get the signal from the computer downstairs?

 

[LhasaCM]

Sounds like you've essentially done the same thing I'm attempting to do. I have the Ceton card, haven't ordered the CableCard yet, but will do soon, then install it into my computer. I have FiOS, however, Verizon has only provided me with an 802.11g router. The PC upstairs is 802.11n capable. I should also note that I will be streaming the video from this PC, to a 61" SD TV. My house is not hard wired, so I will be dependent upon wireless.

Aside from the aforementioned equipment, what else will I need to get this system to work? Do I NEED to purchase a secondary 802.11n router, or considering that I'm only streaming SD, will 802.11g suffice? Do I need some other "extender" device, or will the PC do just fine? This is a HP TouchSmart, I forget the exact model. I understand I will be using Windows Media Center on the upstairs computer, but the question is, how do I get the signal from the computer downstairs?

Hard to say if the wireless will suffice. You can test that now by trying to stream an SD video from one machine to the one upstairs. It should be fine...but you never know. (Does it run into any problems playing standard definition Youtube videos?)

While a dedicated extender would make things easiest, if you already have the PC up there that will suffice. One configuration option is to, as I said before, split the 4 tuners between the two PCs. Leave 3 tuners tied to the main HTPC that you'll be recording to, and 1 for the PC upstairs. That allows you to watch live TV within Media Center "normally." Depending on how much you want to record, that should be fine from a "conflict" standpoint.

http://www.cetoncorp.com/documents/InfiniTV_4_Network_Tuners_Setup_Guide.pdf has Ceton's setup guide for installing network tuners (both on the host and on the client). Essentially, you configure the card on the main HTPC so that 3 of the tuners are for that PC and 1 is for the one upstairs. Then on the PC upstairs, you configure it to use that tuner. It's actually quite simple.

 

[Schro]

This is actually incorrect. Whether content will play on other comps or not depends on the flag on the content (which is established by the provider, not Ceton). Stuff that's copy-freely isn't infested. The content where this problem would arise would be HBO, Showtime, and Pay-Per-View (copy-once). Everything else would not apply 90% of the time and would be easily shared to any extender he had. As you've stated copy-once even affects Windows so unless he's buying XBOX's for every room he'll have to abide by the same rules as any extender Win, Lin, WD Live etc. This is why earlier we all agreed that XBOX would be the best extender. After that things get dicey.

Most cable providers out there are employing the copy once flag on all non-OTA content. Verizon's FIOS is one of the few that are only implementing it on the premium channels, however, with the tin foil hat equiped, I do not expect that to be something that lasts over the course of time. If he moves to Comcrap, TWC, etc, at some point in the future, then just about everything will be jacked with the DRM.

Back in the day, specific Windows MCE extenders were produced, such as the Linksys DMA 2100/2200 (the later having a DVD drive in it) that will actually play back DRM flagged content just like the Xbox. All of those were discontinued 3+ years ago, but are still available. Any NEW "extender"/playback box right now is not capable of interfacing with MCE, but would instead interface with the file system (WD Live, Boxee, whatever). The advantage to the Xbox/MCE Extender method is the shared program guide and library, but at the expense of limited codec support on the boxes. Since he's looking for an STB replacement, this shouldn't be an issue for his requirements.

??

I'm guessing this is because you had not heard of MCE extenders that weren't the Xbox?

There's more than a few people streaming content via wireless with Cetons here. 802.11G would be tight depending on the number. N? There's more than enough bandwidth for 720p. I prefer wired myself, but saying it can't be done via wireless reliably just is a little too far.

I have a Ceton, and in my house (which isn't made from concrete blocks and steel), I cannot get a reliable enough N or G signal at either 2.4 or 5ghz to keep it from dropping out. The bandwidth on either is just fine, but there's periodic drops that cause it to buffer every once in a while. If you have no walls or very little distance to your AP, wireless should be fine - it just didn't work for me.

As mentioned, the DRM is based upon the cable provider, not the individual PC, so it's not accurate to say you get non-sharable libraries. I've split off one of the tuners so I could watch live TV on a PC upstairs that was already there. I can record whatever I want (I don't have any premium channels like HBO/Showtime - those tend to flag more of their shows) through my provider and watch it wherever I want in the house. That does remove one of the tuners from the main machine that I schedule recordings on, but I've never had any conflict with that arrangement. I agree that splitting all 4 and sending them on their separate ways would lead to issues.

Yes, it does depend on the cable provider, however, the general trend for all cable providers it to move more towards copy once on everything the FCC lets them put it on. For example, a few years back, Comcast was copy-freely except for premium channels. Region by region, they implemented copy-once over the past few years. With teh cable companies lobbying the FCC to allow them to copy protect OTA channels now, its pretty obvious which way DRM is headed, so if you design and implement a new system assuming that DRM will stay where it is today, you run a much higher risk of being surprised and disappointed later.

 

[LhasaCM]

Yes, it does depend on the cable provider, however, the general trend for all cable providers it to move more towards copy once on everything the FCC lets them put it on. For example, a few years back, Comcast was copy-freely except for premium channels. Region by region, they implemented copy-once over the past few years. With teh cable companies lobbying the FCC to allow them to copy protect OTA channels now, its pretty obvious which way DRM is headed, so if you design and implement a new system assuming that DRM will stay where it is today, you run a much higher risk of being surprised and disappointed later.

Sure - it's good to keep in mind where things might be going. However, the approach that I used (which I threw out there for the OP to consider) is something that can be implemented without putting any more money and only a little bit of time into it, since he has a PC to repurpose assuming his wireless is reliable enough. If his provider ends up making everything restricted down the road, then he can look at an extender at that point. By then, Ceton's new extender shown at CES might be available. Until then, why overinvest?

 

[kac77]

Most cable providers out there are employing the copy once flag on all non-OTA content. Verizon's FIOS is one of the few that are only implementing it on the premium channels, however, with the tin foil hat equiped, I do not expect that to be something that lasts over the course of time. If he moves to Comcrap, TWC, etc, at some point in the future, then just about everything will be jacked with the DRM.

I've had both FIOS (which I'm using now) and Crapcast. The SD channels with Comcast were not copy-once. Some of the HD were but most were not. With Comcast in particular they have different profiles depending on the cable card unit. From Comcast forum.

I might be late in responding here but the same issue happened to me on Comcast. Please ensure they have you under their "HomeRun Prime" profile and not under a "Tivo" profile. My only copyonce channels now are things like HBO, etc. All network channels in my "Digital plus HD" package are set to free copy or unspecified which means I can record them in MythTV. 

Now granted could this change? Of course it could but right now the OP isn't even set up yet. He already has the Ceton Card so once installed he'll know right away what is and isn't and plan accordingly.

I'm guessing this is because you had not heard of MCE extenders that weren't the Xbox?

Nope I've been aware of them. I just don't believe in going to Ebay and rolling the dice there. Been burnt way too many times to recommend that at all. Either way as someone noted Ceton will be coming with their own extender, which is far better than replicating tuners. There is a way to get around most of these problems but they just aren't for the faint of heart so I'm not recommending the OP go there.

I have a Ceton, and in my house (which isn't made from concrete blocks and steel), I cannot get a reliable enough N or G signal at either 2.4 or 5ghz to keep it from dropping out. The bandwidth on either is just fine, but there's periodic drops that cause it to buffer every once in a while. If you have no walls or very little distance to your AP, wireless should be fine - it just didn't work for me.

If you're having drops of connection and not low bandwidth 9 times out of 10 this usually is related to the type of NIC or AP you're using. Walls and obstructions are constant unless your connection is weak to begin with or live in a congested city. All of these problems have low cost solutions. Adding a AP is cheap to do. Either way testing the wireless connection which all of the computer's the OP has would be way smarter than immediately jumping to wired when it might be possible. It would take all of 5 minutes to test before going on the Home Depot run.