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SSD Paging?

C

coder_t2

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
1,166
Hey guys, this is just kind of a question that popped in my head and I was wondering what all of your experiences were. Typically when a computer runs out of RAM, it starts to utilize part of the HDD as a replacement. This can sometimes cause it to stop to a halt, or basically crawl so bad you can't even exit out of programs to free up a memory. Othertimes the computer just runs sluggish, but works... you wouldn't believe how many friends/family members who would be out of memory on boot up and still used the computer.

I was just wondering the Real Life, not a benchmarked, comparison of a standard disk drive to a solid state one, since they are faster. Let me know your experiences!
 
If you're having performance hits that severe, look into getting more RAM before looking at an SSD. It's 1/10th to 1/4th the cost and 50x more effective at speeding up the computer. A computer that's out of RAM is still going to crawl with an SSD because the fastest the data can possibly be transferred is whatever the interface's max speed it (e.g. SATA would 300MB/s vs dual channel DDR2-800's 12,800MB/s).
 
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SSD's are a LOT faster with paging, but still, you never want to be paging anyways. Ram is too cheap to be skimping on these days heh.
 
TehQuick said:
Depends. DDR2 RAM used to be dirt cheap... getting more expensive this year
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It's a cycle. DDR was (relatively) dirt cheap whlle SDR skyrocketed; then DDR2 bottomed out while DDR skyrocketed. Now it's DDR3's time in the bargain bin.

However, compared to the price of an SSD and the performance gains you get on a system that's out-of-RAM... DDR2 is still dirt cheap.
 
ryan_975 said:
If you're having performance hits that severe, look into getting more RAM before looking at an SSD.
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It is rare when this happens. Typically some kind of fluke thing. But it was just a curiosity question more than anything. And since I don't have an SSD, I couldn't test it out myself. If this was a common case, I would definitely get more RAM. But I just wanted to know the comparison of a standard disk drive to a SSD. But if SSDs are fast enough to the point I could actually close of programs, would be nice. The thrashing from paging is sometimes just brutal. Besides, it would make ReadyBoost completely worthless, although it was mostly worthless to begin with since RAM prices took a nose dive.
 
tomiboy59 said:
It is rare when this happens. Typically some kind of fluke thing. But it was just a curiosity question more than anything. And since I don't have an SSD, I couldn't test it out myself. If this was a common case, I would definitely get more RAM. But I just wanted to know the comparison of a standard disk drive to a SSD. But if SSDs are fast enough to the point I could actually close of programs, would be nice. The thrashing from paging is sometimes just brutal. Besides, it would make ReadyBoost completely worthless, although it was mostly worthless to begin with since RAM prices took a nose dive.
Click to expand...

SSD's are fast enough :) (At least the good ones!)
 
what are you guys talking about? You'll never need anything more than 640K!!




:p
 
Windows pages stupidly. With 4-6gig of ram, the page file should NEVER be touched, unless you are video editing.
 
tomiboy59 said:
Hey guys, this is just kind of a question that popped in my head and I was wondering what all of your experiences were. Typically when a computer runs out of RAM, it starts to utilize part of the HDD as a replacement. This can sometimes cause it to stop to a halt, or basically crawl so bad you can't even exit out of programs to free up a memory. Othertimes the computer just runs sluggish, but works... you wouldn't believe how many friends/family members who would be out of memory on boot up and still used the computer.

I was just wondering the Real Life, not a benchmarked, comparison of a standard disk drive to a solid state one, since they are faster. Let me know your experiences!
Click to expand...

These days it's very rare that you'll run out of memory and require actually paging to disk (at least in a modern system). That said, there are still applications out there that refuse to work without a page file.
 
nsx241 said:
These days it's very rare that you'll run out of memory and require actually paging to disk (at least in a modern system). That said, there are still applications out there that refuse to work without a page file.
Click to expand...

Such as? I have my page file disabled, and have yet to see an app or game complain.

Thanks to 64-bit computing, we have more ram than most people need, so it's easy to turn off the page file.
 
nsx241 said:
These days it's very rare that you'll run out of memory and require actually paging to disk (at least in a modern system). That said, there are still applications out there that refuse to work without a page file.
Click to expand...

Yes but this doesn't mean that running out of memory won't ever happen. Programs will get bigger. People will leave computers on longer, therefore taking up more memory as windows likes to do. And always the possibility of memory leaks, especially if you are developer testing out software. But from what I understand, it is a significant improvement over standard mechanical HDDs. The next question is, how long until SSDs are fast enough to where we won't need RAM anymore? One less component to buy would be pretty impressive. Definitely a ways off from where we are at now, but I wouldn't be surprised if SSD technology advances really quickly once it becomes mainstream and someone gets the idea to use this in a netbook or something.
 
A quick question re having the page file on a ssd, what is the best way to have it set up ( ie. in the settings for virtual memory ). I have a Intel 80GB G2 and 8GB ram

1. Have Win 7 manage all page files on all disks.
2. Have windows manage the page file just on the ssd
3. Set a fixed size page file on the ssd.

John
 
ITT more people who don't understand what a page file really does and think they know more about windows than the engineers who designed it, even with a brand new OS like Windows 7.

Don't disable it.
 
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Gotcha. I agree. Page file is there for a reason. Expect windows to be able to only use it when necessary. From my experience, page file seems to be used on programs that are running in the background when another application needs more RAM. So when you play a game, windows will use the page file for other applications, making sure Your game/main application gets the amount of RAM it needs.
 
GotNoRice said:
ITT more people who don't understand what a page file really does and think they know more about windows than the engineers who designed it, even with a brand new OS like Windows 7.

Don't disable it.
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The same engineers that gave us Vista. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

This argument is such a fallacy isn't doesn't even deserve a response, just derision.
 
PHiZ said:
The same engineers that gave us Vista. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

This argument is such a fallacy isn't doesn't even deserve a response, just derision.
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You mean the OS that was ridiculed because third parties couldn't get off their asses to be prepared for release? The one that Windows 7 is almost exactly like, but gets massive applause? Talk about fallacies.
 
ryan_975 said:
You mean the OS that was ridiculed because third parties couldn't get off their asses to be prepared for release? The one that Windows 7 is almost exactly like, but gets massive applause? Talk about fallacies.
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k9wh80.png


So, why do the SUPRA SMRT Windows Enginers!!!!11 include a handy radio button for disabling the pagefile?

Windows virtual memory management is better in Win7, but it is still a patented Microsoft tragicomedy.

I HAVE 12 GIGS OF RAM, WHY ARE YOU HITTING THE PAGEFILE?!?!!?!? EVAR?! haha.
 
PHiZ said:
k9wh80.png


So, why do the SUPRA SMRT Windows Enginers!!!!11 include a handy radio button for disabling the pagefile?

Windows virtual memory management is better in Win7, but it is still a patented Microsoft tragicomedy.

I HAVE 12 GIGS OF RAM, WHY ARE YOU HITTING THE PAGEFILE?!?!!?!? EVAR?! haha.
Click to expand...

Uhh, it's actually pretty smart to put stuff in the page file preemptively, as then if you happen to need to use your ram stuff can be dumped from ram immediately, it doesn't need to be copied to swap because it's already there. It's not like its going to actually sit there and use the page file over ram, it just is 'getting ready' for the case where you suddenly need lots of ram (more than what is free right now).

Geez I don't know why people get their panties so bunched up over the swap file...
 
extide said:
It's not like its going to actually sit there and use the page file over ram, it just is 'getting ready' for the case where you suddenly need lots of ram (more than what is free right now).
Click to expand...

Actually, that is exactly how windows virtual memory has historically worked. MS took a strategy of maintaining free RAM, on a theory that user's would prefer that new program opened faster (by not having to wait to page things out of memory). Now, on a modern system with 1 or 2 gig of ram, a page file is still necessary, even though the paging strategy MS has adopted is stupid. But on a system with 12gig of ram, it is ridiculous. There is NO reason for routine use of paging file.

I'm not the one that chose to turn this into a pagefile crapfest. The reason this is relevant to SSD is not because of the speed of the SSD, and it's not even because of the fact that excessive writing decreases the lifespan of the drive. No, incessant page file use is a problem because it creates unnecessary garbage writes which then must be cleaned (either through GC or TRIM). It makes your drive slower.

This is why I keep ALL stupid writes off my SSD. Like when the browser caches streaming media (youtube, pandora, etc.) No reason for that. I have a 2gig ramdrive for shit like that.
 
Read Pushing the Limits of Windows: Virtual Memory.
Mark Russinovich said:
How Big Should I Make the Paging File?

Perhaps one of the most commonly asked questions related to virtual memory is, how big should I make the paging file? There’s no end of ridiculous advice out on the web and in the newsstand magazines that cover Windows, and even Microsoft has published misleading recommendations. Almost all the suggestions are based on multiplying RAM size by some factor, with common values being 1.2, 1.5 and 2. Now that you understand the role that the paging file plays in defining a system’s commit limit and how processes contribute to the commit charge, you’re well positioned to see how useless such formulas truly are.

Since the commit limit sets an upper bound on how much private and pagefile-backed virtual memory can be allocated concurrently by running processes, the only way to reasonably size the paging file is to know the maximum total commit charge for the programs you like to have running at the same time. If the commit limit is smaller than that number, your programs won’t be able to allocate the virtual memory they want and will fail to run properly.

So how do you know how much commit charge your workloads require? You might have noticed in the screenshots that Windows tracks that number and Process Explorer shows it: Peak Commit Charge. To optimally size your paging file you should start all the applications you run at the same time, load typical data sets, and then note the commit charge peak (or look at this value after a period of time where you know maximum load was attained). Set the paging file minimum to be that value minus the amount of RAM in your system (if the value is negative, pick a minimum size to permit the kind of crash dump you are configured for). If you want to have some breathing room for potentially large commit demands, set the maximum to double that number.

Some feel having no paging file results in better performance, but in general, having a paging file means Windows can write pages on the modified list (which represent pages that aren’t being accessed actively but have not been saved to disk) out to the paging file, thus making that memory available for more useful purposes (processes or file cache). So while there may be some workloads that perform better with no paging file, in general having one will mean more usable memory being available to the system (never mind that Windows won’t be able to write kernel crash dumps without a paging file sized large enough to hold them).
Click to expand...

If you have enough RAM to run your apps, you shouldn't need a pagefile - it's simple math. There are/were a few apps that simply didn't work correctly without one though (I think older versions of Photoshop are an example). It's also where Windows stores crash dumps, if you're into that sort of thing. As PHiZ stated, Windows has a history of managing memory poorly and using the pagefile even when there was RAM available. In these cases, disabling the pagefile forced Windows to use RAM, making it faster. I would hope that modern versions of Windows are better about this sort of thing, but I can't personally say.

Also keep in mind that if you're paging stuff out to the same disk that you're loading new stuff from, you're going back and forth with the disk accesses. If you have enough physical RAM to run your apps, then swapping stuff out to the pagefile is simply storing it one place on the disk to avoid having to reload it from another place on the same disk. If you're actually using your pagefile as virtual memory because you don't have enough RAM to run your apps, then you're using a much, much slower substitute for RAM and unnecessarily killing your performance. System RAM is much faster than even SSD (DDR2-800 is 6400MB/s). If you could buy an 8GB version of the G2 for $25, it would make a great pagefile drive. However, spending that same ~$25 on more RAM will help more considering the RAM is probably 20 times faster than even an SSD.

In short:
  • If you have enough RAM, you shouldn't need a pagefile.
  • Modern versions of Windows should be smart enough to use RAM over the pagefile when possible.
  • Assuming that Windows isn't stupid about pagefile handling, it should be used very minimally when you have enough RAM for your apps.
  • The less your pagefile is used, the less effect a disk upgrade will have on its performance.
  • Since it should theoretically be small and infrequently used, putting a pagefile on your SSD should be fine.
  • If moving your pagefile to SSD results in huge performance increases, that means your pagefile is getting used a lot. That indicates that you need more RAM or the OS has poor memory handling.
 
PHiZ said:
Actually, that is exactly how windows virtual memory has historically worked. MS took a strategy of maintaining free RAM, on a theory that user's would prefer that new program opened faster (by not having to wait to page things out of memory). Now, on a modern system with 1 or 2 gig of ram, a page file is still necessary, even though the paging strategy MS has adopted is stupid. But on a system with 12gig of ram, it is ridiculous. There is NO reason for routine use of paging file.

I'm not the one that chose to turn this into a pagefile crapfest. The reason this is relevant to SSD is not because of the speed of the SSD, and it's not even because of the fact that excessive writing decreases the lifespan of the drive. No, incessant page file use is a problem because it creates unnecessary garbage writes which then must be cleaned (either through GC or TRIM). It makes your drive slower.

This is why I keep ALL stupid writes off my SSD. Like when the browser caches streaming media (youtube, pandora, etc.) No reason for that. I have a 2gig ramdrive for shit like that.
Click to expand...


It doesnt actually 'maintain free ram'. it does exactly as I posted, it COPIES stuff into the pagefile so that it CAN be deleted immediately (if needed).

What other way would you do it if you wrote the pagefile system? That's the best way to do it.

It's obviously been mentioned/pointed out that you can disable the page file and it all still runs fine so if you want to do that then you can, nothing stopping you there.
 
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