Spot the bottleneck!

E

Esteth

n00b
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
14
hey all, im deciding on what to get for christmas, but have somewhat changed my approach and budget since my last thread. instead of going for an upgrade do all the parts of the system, im looking to upgrade in steps, rather than all at once.

current specs:
* Processor: Pentium 4 3Ghz Hyper-threaded
* Mobo: i915 dell stock board
* RAM: 4x256Mb DDR2-200mhz
* Graphics: ATI X800GT 128mb
* PSU: Stock Dell 305w
* Sound: onboard
* Monitor: 17" Dell LCD. 1280*1024 VGA input

I use the rig for gaming, programming, and browsing etc... and tend to multi-task a lot.( multiple IM windows, 10+ firefox tabs, game in background/alt-tabbing out a lot)

my budget is still kinda tight, and since my rate of income is low (16, no job) id like to get the most bang for my buck, but keep the rig semi-future proof.

In this respect, i've ruled out upgrading the graphics for now, and ill wait until the ATI DX10 boards come out for the 8800 prices to drop. Since im not upgrading graphics yet, the monitor could stay the same aswell, since all the 24" WS LCD/TFT have something "not right" about them for now at least, even if they're out of my price range a little, i could maybe get one sometime late next year.

been looking at an Evga680i mobo with an E6400 and 2gigs of crucial ballistix, which together would be about £535, but it seems like a good upgrade.

i have about £800 ( yes, im in the UK. dabs.com is similar to newegg ) in total at the moment, with an extra £25 every month, but dont want to spend all of it, and that includes getting a new monitor/Graphics card.

soo, id like to know where the bottlenecks in my system are, and what gives me the best bang for my buck, while keeping upgradability open.

thanks,
Esteth
 
First off...

Dabs suck.

Scan are far better.

Are you currently running with stock dell case?

I'd get...

E6300 or E6400 Core2Duo maybe get an Arctic Cooling HSF too.
2gb of DDR 800 (around £175)
Gigabyte 965 DS4 or Asus P5B Deluxe mobo
A new case and decent PSU maybe the Antec P150 combo
And maybe blow whats left on either a cheap last gen card 7900GS or equiv ATi or if poss an 8800GTS.

Your jobless so dont bother with SLI, the 965 boards will OC just as well as the nForce and the cpu wont really notice some more relaxed timings.
 
never heard of scan before, but ill go with the suggestion :)

Anyways, im running a stock dell case, a dimension 4700, but as long as things fit, i really dont care for the look of it. I dont bring my own PC to lan games anyways, when i go, i go to a cafe round the corner which demand you use their PCs so everyone's on the same hardware.

I'd much rather wait for an 8800 than get a 7900 and regret not having DX10. if i get an 8800 i can allways add a second one next time i need an upgrade, instead of throwing an old card out because its not DX10.

The above reason is really why i was looking at the i680 rather than the DS4/P5B, 'cause it leaves my options open for upgrading without having to throw old stuff away.

At any rate, is there a noticable performance drop between the 6400 and 6300? the 6600 seems a bit too expensive for my budget, and a 6400 should be able to clock to 3Ghz anyway, although i have zero overclocking experience, so i dont know if that will happen on the stock fan, or wether i need an aftermarket one.

thanks, and ill be sure to buy from scan :)
 
with some more info Id go for this then.

CPU Intel Core 2 Duo E6300, Socket 775, 1.86 GHz, 1066MHz FSB, Allendale Core, 2MB Cache, Retail
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=430631

Mobo Gigabyte GA 965P-DS3 iP965, S775, PCI-E (x16), DDR2 533/667/800, SATA II, SATA RAID, ATX
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=437659

RAM 2GB (2x1GB) CorsairTwinX XMS2, DDR2 PC2-6400 (800), 240 Pins, Non-ECC Unbuffered, CAS 5-5-5-12
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=255300

Video 640MB Palit 8800GTS PCI-E (x16), Mem 1600 MHz, GPU 500 MHz, 96 Streams, 2 x Dual Link DVI HDTV+ Game
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=491976

Case/PSU Antec P150 UK Aluminium ATX Case with energy-efficient 430W PSU
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=481214

If your on a budget the i680s not worth looking at, by the time youve brought 2 8800s there will be a better single card out there anyway. Case/PSU because I doubt the air flow and psu are up to the task with the new components.
 
FYI the "I can always buy another card in SLI later" is never cost effective in the long run.

A single 8800GTS will be more than enough for 24" gaming for at least 2-3 years.

By then, a single 8800GTS will also cost roughly the same as the current "mid range" performer card and will also, be louder, hotter and use more electricity.


Seriously, trying to get another 7800GT costs me about 200$ now, from ebay... And would probably give me no more performance than an 8300 level card when it's released.

All conroes can OC to at least 3.0ghz with a P5B-e or Deluxe motherboard.
 
The DS3 or S3 could also get you to 3Ghz. Hm... scan only carries corsair? I'd suggest cheaper ram if you can find any (corsairs tend to be overpriced).
 
One thing to consider, most good motherboards for Core2 are ATX, that Dell case is mATX, they won't fit. Plus Dell's aren't reknowned for their airflow. so even if you found a good mATX case, you'll have a hard time keeping things cool.
 
Fawkes said:
with some more info Id go for this then.
CPU Intel Core 2 Duo E6300, Socket 775, 1.86 GHz, 1066MHz FSB, Allendale Core, 2MB Cache, Retail
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=430631

Mobo Gigabyte GA 965P-DS3 iP965, S775, PCI-E (x16), DDR2 533/667/800, SATA II, SATA RAID, ATX
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=437659

Case/PSU Antec P150 UK Aluminium ATX Case with energy-efficient 430W PSU
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=481214
Click to expand...

these are the 3 parts im currently not sure of then. the E6300 is essentially the same chip as a E6400, but "underclocked"? in that case, it should be able to get to 3Ghz as easy as a 6600 or 6400? or do you hit the FSB wall before heat/voltage becomes an issue.

Im a little interested in overclocking, but not to any huge extent, and ive never done a major overclock before, allways been too scared i was going to break something, so i definately dont want to increase the voltage, as increasing the FSB shouldnt be able to do any permanent damage to it, as long as i can still get to the BIOS to lower it back down? as i said, im an OC noob :p

That PSU/Case should be enough to give enough power and provide adequte airflow for an 8800? i've heard the things are not only power beasts, but chuck out heat like crazy too. A friend also told me i cant double up two 12v rails to get the amperage i need for an 8800 or ill fry the card, cause it'll pull 24v :(

Any DDR800 ram is good if i'm not interested in tigtening timings or speed, i assume, because i know literrally nothing about the effects of timings and such on the ram, and dont want to get involved with that if at all possible. Also, is 800Mhz overkill considering the FSB isnt even close to that on the processor?

Finally, is that mobo a good choice for stability and OC potential, if i decide to try putting a little more juice into the processor later?
 
Yes the motherboard is good.

Yes the 800mhz RAM is needed.

Intels FSB is tied into the RAM speed, the faster ram you have the higher you can OC.

The Gigabyte is considered one of the best core2 overclocking boards at the moment.

From what Ive read the 16amps on each rail of the PSU should be enough for the GTS.

Case air flow will be good, only thing might be that card being too big to fit.The GTS doesnt appear to extend beyond a std ATX board though so I imagine it would be ok.
 
Esteth said:
A friend also told me i cant double up two 12v rails to get the amperage i need for an 8800 or ill fry the card, cause it'll pull 24v :(
Click to expand...
I don't know what your friend is talking about, but that PSU will be fine. It has 3 +12V rails to help power everything up.

You're right, all you need to do for mild OC'ing is raise the FSB. The DDR2-800 ram won't be overkill if the price difference between that and DDR2-667 is negligible (and it seems to be, currently, so go with the DDR2-800). Again, that mobo is a great choice. You only need a mobo that can reach 429Mhz FSB to get an E6300 to 3Ghz, and that board can certainly do more than that.
 
Fawkes said:
Yes the motherboard is good.

Yes the 800mhz RAM is needed.

Intels FSB is tied into the RAM speed, the faster ram you have the higher you can OC.
The Gigabyte is considered one of the best core2 overclocking boards at the moment.

From what Ive read the 16amps on each rail of the PSU should be enough for the GTS.

Case air flow will be good, only thing might be that card being too big to fit.The GTS doesnt appear to extend beyond a std ATX board though so I imagine it would be ok.
Click to expand...

Not true. The memory clock is calculated from the FSB, but it's not directly tied to it. If memory becomes a barrier to an overclock you can run it slower than the FSB.
 
Esteth said:
Also, is 800Mhz overkill considering the FSB isnt even close to that on the processor?
Click to expand...
FSB is 1066Mhz on conroes, 266Mhz*4 (quad pumped). If you don't want to OC the CPU and just run DDR2-800 at its proper speed, then you'd need a 4:3 (CPU:RAM) ram divider (4x266 and 3x266).
 
enginurd said:
FSB is 1066Mhz on conroes, 266Mhz*4 (quad pumped). If you don't want to OC the CPU and just run DDR2-800 at its proper speed, then you'd need a 4:3 (CPU:RAM) ram divider (4x266 and 3x266).
Click to expand...

What is it with the misunderstanding of dividers lately?

An Intel sysems ram speed is calculated using a divider expressed as a ratio X:Y. You multiply the FSB time X then divide it by Y. so for a 266FSB and a 4:3 divider you'd get 266*4=1066/3=355 (ok I rounded). To get DDR2-800 you'd need a 3:2 divider (266*3=798/2=399 or 400 rounded as most frequencies you see listed are rounded to the close whole number)
 
And the lowest divider they can run is 1:1. At which point when overclocking the FSB you will quickly run out of head room in your ram.

To hit 2.8 on a E6300 youll need ram capable of 800mhz min.
 
Fawkes said:
And the lowest divider they can run is 1:1. At which point when overclocking the FSB you will quickly run out of head room in your ram.

To hit 2.8 on a E6300 youll need ram capable of 800mhz min.
Click to expand...

capable of 400MHz since DDR2 is double pumped. 800MHz 1:1 with the FSB would give a 5.6GHz E6300. :p
 
ryan_975 said:
capable of 400MHz since DDR2 is double pumped. 800MHz 1:1 with the FSB would give a 5.6GHz E6300. :p
Click to expand...

wow... why would anyone bother buying anything but DDR533... oh wait

The 1:1 refers to the base clock before its been double pumped by the ram and quad pumped by the FSB.
 
Fawkes said:
wow... why would anyone bother buying anything but DDR533... oh wait

The 1:1 refers to the base clock before its been double pumped by the ram and quad pumped by the FSB.
Click to expand...

um, okay....
 
oooook then! i was asked to step in and determine who is right. ;)

however, i can't really figure out exactly what either of you are talking about, so let's start from scratch! and note that this only applies to intel systems. i can explain how amd does all this another time :p

so, you start out with the fsb. for all conroes, this is 266mhz stock, or 1066mhz effective, since it's quad pumped.

the memory speed is set directly by the fsb speed and the memory ratio. some motherboards do tricky things with how the ratios are labeled, but don't be confused! 2x is really 1:1.. i'll explain why later.

but anyway.. fsb * memory ratio = memory speed.

if you have 266mhz fsb and 2:1 memory ratio.. the final ram speed is..... 533mhz! or ddr2-1066!
or if you have 400mhz fsb and you're running 5:4.. it's 500mhz ram, ddr2-1000
and so forth. that part is easy. the trick is figuring out what ratio you're actually using. some boards tell you the ratio. some tell you the actual ram speed being set intsead. both of those are nice. the 3rd kind? you get some funky 2x, 2.5x, etc.

2x means the "effective" speed of the ram is 2x the fsb speed. since the effective speed is double the actual (hence ddr), this means when 2x is set, the ratio is really 1:1
2.5x is 5:4 (since at 400mhz fsb, the ram clock will be ddr2-1000, or 500mhz. 5:4)
3x is 3:2
3.5x is 7:4

and so forth! the math really isn't that bad :D
 
(cf)Eclipse said:
oooook then! i was asked to step in and determine who is right. ;)

however, i can't really figure out exactly what either of you are talking about, so let's start from scratch! and note that this only applies to intel systems. i can explain how amd does all this another time :p

so, you start out with the fsb. for all conroes, this is 266mhz stock, or 1066mhz effective, since it's quad pumped.

the memory speed is set directly by the fsb speed and the memory ratio. some motherboards do tricky things with how the ratios are labeled, but don't be confused! 2x is really 1:1.. i'll explain why later.

but anyway.. fsb * memory ratio = memory speed.

if you have 266mhz fsb and 2:1 memory ratio.. the final ram speed is..... 533mhz! or ddr2-1066!
or if you have 400mhz fsb and you're running 5:4.. it's 500mhz ram, ddr2-1000
and so forth. that part is easy. the trick is figuring out what ratio you're actually using. some boards tell you the ratio. some tell you the actual ram speed being set intsead. both of those are nice. the 3rd kind? you get some funky 2x, 2.5x, etc.

2x means the "effective" speed of the ram is 2x the fsb speed. since the effective speed is double the actual (hence ddr), this means when 2x is set, the ratio is really 1:1
2.5x is 5:4 (since at 400mhz fsb, the ram clock will be ddr2-1000, or 500mhz. 5:4)
3x is 3:2
3.5x is 7:4

and so forth! the math really isn't that bad :D
Click to expand...

which is what I said. FSB*X/Y If FSB=266 and the ration is 3:2 then 266*3/2 = 400MHz or DDR2-800.
 
ryan_975 said:
which is what I said. FSB*X/Y If FSB=266 and the ration is 3:2 then 266*3/2 = 400MHz or DDR2-800.
Click to expand...
right, sorry about that. dunno what i was thinking.
 
whoa! come home from a nasty dentist visit to find my thread filled with ram speed discussions :p from that, it looks as though ill go for the DDR800, especially with the lower multiplier on the E6300, cause the FSB would need to be set higher for the same speed :)

i have two questions left :)

1. I could hold off on the 8800GTS for a few weeks, maybe up to two months, before i buy it, because ill be broke otherwise. What will my Oblivion performance be like with the faster RAM/C2D processor compared to what i get now? its unplayable really at the moment :(

2. Should i re-install windows to get rid of my old drivers and stuff. 2 years of not re-installing windows has left my hard drive rather full, and i dont want to lose any data if i dont have to, seeing as i cant afford a second hard drive to temporarily mirror to. If i have to re-install windows, can i use my provided-by-dell disk to install windows after i format the drive? or should i just format the windows/ubuntu/linux-swap partitions, join them, and then it should work ok because the two dell partitions are still there?

thanks for all the great feedback, i think ill be ordering later today without the 8800GTS so i can be sure something will get here in time for christmas. i can allways grab the card later if i need/want to :)
 
By your description, it sounds like you have a dell. I do not think a evga board can be mounted in your dell. Plus I think you have to add a PSU to the price, since your dell PSU will not work on the evga...
 
i should maybe have been more clear, but ill be ordering the machine fawkes suggested, or one very similar. potentially without the video card for now, depending on what kind of performance increase i can expect, and where the performance increase will be.

I expect the performance to mainly shine doing intense windows tasks. like uncompressing a large file and still being able to browse the internet. my P4 grinds to a halt at the moment when i try that :(
 
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