Sound

[KarmaPolice]

Right now all i ahve is a regular Sound Blaster Gamer..

I am getting a new computer with the MSI Neo2 Platinum....

here is my question.

A. Is the onboard good enough for my 5.1 klipsh speakers...
B. If i do need a new sound card to get better sound..is there a big diff between the SB Audigy ZS, the Audigy ZS Gamer, and the Audigy2 ZS

Thx!

 

[OldMX]

I went from SBLive! 5.1 to Audigy Mp3+ because i wanted to try something new and wanted the firewire port of the audigy, but besides the fw port, i didnt notice difference at all from one card to another.

OldMX

 

[Nazo]

Hrm, the onboard nForce 2 used that SoundStorm that people seemed to be impressed with. I looked this up and it said RealTek something or other. Perhaps RealTek makes the actual soundstorm chip, I'm not sure, but, I wouldn't count on it. I've found that most onboard audio is quite dissapointing with a myriad of problems (one of which being that usually it's pure software making it more work on the CPU to do stuff like directsound3d or eax.)

Now, as to whether you will hear the difference depends on things like what kind of stuff you use it for, if your speakers are good enough quality, and so on. If you upgrade to a REAL soundcard, you will usually see good results.

BTW, by Sound Blaster "Gamer" do you mean the Live Gamer Edition or the Adigy 1 Gamer Edition or the Audigy 2 Gamer Edition? If it's the live, sell it and go with the onboard. SBLive is a horribly outdated card that was pretty bad to begin with. The audigy 1 isn't so great, but the audigy 2 is pretty tolerable in most areas. (Audiophiles will still gladly point you to some other brands like Terratec which won't be filtering the audio so badly.)

 

[KarmaPolice]

Thank you very much for all the information..and I am sorry about the wrong forum post.

here are the cards...

Audigy2 ZS Gamer Limited Edition

Audigy 2 ZS

Really i look at all the of SB cards and i have no idea what makes each better. I love music, watching movies, and playing games and thats why i have the Klipsh 5.1 promedia set up. I recently just started using this computer and have a Sound Blaster of some sort in it..its hard to tell becuase it seems that the hardware mangager is rather messed up at the moment but it looks like a gamer...

There are many more SB cards listed then i have put here but i dont know which one is over kill and which one is enough.

 

[Nazo]

Well, I would avoid the original audigy as it's not really that good. The audigy 2 zs is GREAT for gaming as it supports the latest technologies, which creative is throwing around a lot of money to force support for. It's still not the greatest card out there, but, if you want gaming with accurate 3D and sound environments, the audigy2 is probably the way to go. (Yes, others have things like EAX, but, so far all the cards I tried that supported EAX did a rather poor job of it. Plus this has support for the latest EAX and the other cards will usually lag behind in that area.)

Of course, if you are an audiophile, the audigy2 still isn't a great choice. It has support for two different points at which it doesn't run the audio through filters, but, it's still filtering most of the time. In games it's not usually too noticable as you are concentrating more on the sound of the angry guards shooting at you from your rear. ^_^

I'm not sure what the REAL advantage of the gamer versus non gamer is. I would assume that primarily the gamer has more software (and games) included or something. You might want to check out if they still have that huge rebate on the Audigy 2 ZS Platinum/Platinum Pro btw. If they do, it would cost about the same amount as that.

 

[E4g1e]

Thank you very much for all the information..and I am sorry about the wrong forum post.

here are the cards...

Audigy2 ZS Gamer Limited Edition

Audigy 2 ZS

Really i look at all the of SB cards and i have no idea what makes each better. I love music, watching movies, and playing games and thats why i have the Klipsh 5.1 promedia set up. I recently just started using this computer and have a Sound Blaster of some sort in it..its hard to tell becuase it seems that the hardware mangager is rather messed up at the moment but it looks like a gamer...

There are many more SB cards listed then i have put here but i dont know which one is over kill and which one is enough.

The only major difference between the two cards linked was that the Gamer Limited Edition comes with three additional games (the regular A2 ZS already comes with two games). But otherwise, they're both the same actual hardware, with the same actual drivers.

 

[KarmaPolice]

thanks for the help guys. Guess all just have to close my eyes and pick one lol.

I am pretty sure i have a Audigy Gamer. I dunno if it is a Audigy2 tho...I got it like a year or two ago...ill have to figure out how confirm it.

 

[Nazo]

I'm willing to bet money that it's the Audigy 1 Gamer. If you are so sure about the Audigy part. That SBLive gamer edition sold surprising amounts.

I wouldn't close my eyes though. Read user reviews. See if people are running into problems or whatever.

 

[KarmaPolice]

The Audigy ZS gamer comes with like 6 games which is hard to say no to lol.

Yeah they really need to get someone else in the market here. Besides the Turtle card a while back there is no competion. Someone needs to step up to the plate!

 

[Nazo]

Check the computer audio forum if you really want to delve into that area. Most of the audiophiles seemed to be drooling over Terratec and one other brand I forgot though. If you aren't an audiophile, the Audigy 2 ZS truly is more than enough for you though. And, as I said earlier, in many ways it has advantages over non creative cards -- despite the annoying audio filtering thing, which you won't even notice most of the time if you aren't an audiophile.

EDIT: Oh, and my last card was the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz. That thing sucked when it came to 3D audio in games. It would run A3D (directsound wrapper really) and EAX, but the positioning was terrible. And it would do annoying stuff like make echos super loud. This is basically the kind of thing I'm talking about when it comes to non-creative labs cards in the gaming area. Of course, Turtle Beach has made two new cards just recently, which I know nothing about. These might be considerably better. I can safely say though that I am a LOT happier with gaming since I upgraded to this thing.

EDIT2: Terratec's website if you are curious: http://en.terratec.net/

 

[xonik]

Someone needs to step up to the plate!

Or not get sued out of existence by Creative. Maybe this was before your time, but about five years ago, there were several big players in the computer game audio business. There was a company named Aureal who designed an algorithm that integrated with the 3D engine to produce directional audio that was calculated from the player's position relative to the polygons which made up the game environment. In a sense, it simulated the way real sound changes with the environment. Anyways, this technology went away when Creative sued them out of business and left the technology to third party enthusiasts and developers. To this day, there has not been a formidable challenge to Aureal's technology, as much as Creative would like to forget it. NVIDIA hired several Aureal employees though, perhaps we'll see a response from them.

 

[KarmaPolice]

soudsn like a monopoly to me.

 

[xonik]

In the gaming audio business, I'd say that they are doing well at stifling competition, but in pro audio they aren't the only boys in town. I own a soundcard from Creative's pro audio division, E-MU, but there are some fierce competitors like RME, Lynx, M-Audio, Echo, and others.

 

[Nazo]

They are sure trying.

Heck, they had to make a mess with Doom 3 because the Doom 3 people used a sound method that Creative patented. However, the Doom 3 people had discussed using this method before Creative patented it.

Basically, they are doing their best to monopolize. The closest to competition on the gaming front is DirectSound3D, and that's rather lacking one must admit. Creative labs OWNS eax, so people have to license from them. That means each card you buy from someone else that supports eax gives creative a bit more cash.

That's a monopoly alright. They sue anyone that tries to compete. This is, on the gaming front anyway. They don't mind that they lost huge ground on the actual quality front when they first released the SB Live. Though they did try to make the Audigy series sound like they are 50x better than they are. We need someone else out there, another Aureal or whatever. Heck, if someone would come up wtih a new A3D and convince a major game like Half-Life 2 to support it, then it would gain huge ground now that our CPUs usually have more leeway in gaming. I bet creative would sue in a hurry...

 

[Irons82]

Heck, they had to make a mess with Doom 3 because the Doom 3 people used a sound method that Creative patented. However, the Doom 3 people had discussed using this method before Creative patented it.
...

Actually, the patent has nothing to do with audio. It was a shadow technique for graphics called Z-fail. And Creative used it as a leverage to force id to support EAX for Doom3. Pretty low if you ask.

Basically, they are doing their best to monopolize. The closest to competition on the gaming front is DirectSound3D, and that's rather lacking one must admit. Creative labs OWNS eax, so people have to license from them. That means each card you buy from someone else that supports eax gives creative a bit more cash.
...

err... Do you even know what EAX is? And how it functions in relation to DirectSound? and how they are not competitors? wow...

 

[KarmaPolice]

yeah but they cant just sue everyone...

Competition is what the economy needs!

Tech advance should not be held back by a lawsuit.

 

[Nazo]

I never claimed to be an expert on things like EAX no. I'm sorry you thought that I did. What I DO claim is that the other soundcards tend to be behind, eg EAX 2.0 usually as well as often not having nearly as good support. Don't believe me? You should have heard how it sounds to go into a tunnel in NFS-U on my previous card. God that was horrible. Besides, that just proves the point all the more. If directsound3d isn't competition, then there is NO competition.

As for the whole shadowing thing, I heard them say shadowing over and over, but I figured it had to be some term for something to do with sound reflections or something. I'm amazed to learn it's video related. How the heck did creative end up patenting a video algorithm? And yes, it definitely was low. The advantage of NOT using things like eax is that it was guaranteed that Doom 3 would sound correct on just about any system (regardless of creative's argument to the contrary, they assume everyone upgrades to a sound blaster card when they say that it would sound more alike with EAX -- they ignore all competition. In fact, they stupidly make the assumption that everyone is using onboard audio if not a sb card!)

Anyway, KarmaPolice, I agree. I believe the Doom 3 people were saying the same stuff. Something to the effect of patents suck.

 

[Irons82]

You'll be even more surprised to learn Creative didn't even create the damn thing. They heard it in a presentation back in 1999 and decided it would be cool to patent it. GOOO CREATIVE!!

 

[Nazo]

Is creative labs a secret organization working for Microsoft? You know, like AOL. (oops, spilled the beans on that one.) ^_^

I figured they couldn't have made it. Since when did creative labs know jack squat about video algorithms... *sigh* That's just how the system works though. No wonder the doom people were saying patents suck. Clearly they should have run and patented any new thing they used like that so they could sell it. d-:

Anyway, what I'm wondering is if someone could just take the old A3D stuff and put it on a modern system. Wasn't there an A3D 2 in fact? The biggest problem then was the hit to the CPU. Our modern CPUs generally have a lot more leeway. Since A3D itself doesn't seem to be dead, even if Aureal is, then maybe someone (perhaps nVidia?) could take their old stuff and make it new. Then they just need to bri- uh, pay some game manufacturers to support it and they are set. ^_^

EDIT: BTW, in the future, you need to use a better title to your topics if you want more thorough support than just a bored me. d-: I figured it was your typical "i CaNt GeT mY sOuNd To WoRk" type thread. I just looked in for laughs. How dissapointing, it was a real question.

 

[Irons82]

Is creative labs a secret organization working for Microsoft? You know, like AOL. (oops, spilled the beans on that one.) ^_^

I figured they couldn't have made it. Since when did creative labs know jack squat about video algorithms... *sigh* That's just how the system works though. No wonder the doom people were saying patents suck. Clearly they should have run and patented any new thing they used like that so they could sell it. d-:

Anyway, what I'm wondering is if someone could just take the old A3D stuff and put it on a modern system. Wasn't there an A3D 2 in fact? The biggest problem then was the hit to the CPU. Our modern CPUs generally have a lot more leeway. Since A3D itself doesn't seem to be dead, even if Aureal is, then maybe someone (perhaps nVidia?) could take their old stuff and make it new. Then they just need to bri- uh, pay some game manufacturers to support it and they are set. ^_^

EDIT: BTW, in the future, you need to use a better title to your topics if you want more thorough support than just a bored me. d-: I figured it was your typical "i CaNt GeT mY sOuNd To WoRk" type thread. I just looked in for laughs. How dissapointing, it was a real question.

A3D 2.0 was the best 3D surround sound from a set of 2.1 speakers I have ever heard. The CPU hit with A3D 2.0, with a hardware soundcard was around 30% with my Pentium II 266mhz back then... A3D is dead. Creative bought all the technological assets from Aureal, so be assured, the technology is dead. The only competitor left for Creative up until last month was Sensaura, but guess who bought them out as well?

Based on the speech of the Nvidia rep. during the Hard workshop at QuakeCon, future Nvidia sound solution will be software based, which is the direction the rest of the industry is heading. Hardware-based pseudo 3D sound is not cost-effective and will never sound as convincing as Dolby Digital format. Doom 3 took the right direction and I hope the rest of the developers will follow...

 

[xonik]

Wait, I'm missing how Dolby Digital will always sound more convincing than an algorithm which involves game geometry and such...

DD has made quite a name for itself on the big screen (and little screen), but I don't yet see how this success translates to on-the-fly, 3D environments on the PC.

 

[Irons82]

Wait, I'm missing how Dolby Digital will always sound more convincing than an algorithm which involves game geometry and such...

DD has made quite a name for itself on the big screen (and little screen), but I don't yet see how this success translates to on-the-fly, 3D environments on the PC.

Good question, lol. You know how EAX/A3D work right? They process the sound coming off DirectSound, by adding reverb, distance...etc... They willl never sound real. Now, developers could code these effects into the game. It'll take alot more work and efforts, but it will sound much much better.

 

[Nazo]

Well, what I was wondering is that since so many cards still had A3D support (albiet through wrappers in many cases) that A3D itself isn't exactly impossible for anyone to reanimate and then improve upon.

As for sounding real, well, because of the way A3D worked, it had great potential to one day sound pretty darned close to real. Dolby digital would have to be done in software entirely to have any semblance of accuracy, but, properly done, something that works like A3D would tend to work similarly enough that it would sound really close to the same (there would be minor differences due to different algorithms and that type of thing.)

Anyway, I agree that more should do it like Doom 3 did, but, let's not forget that Doom 3 now has EAX. ^_^ I fear we just can't count on a thing like that. *sigh*