Sound Card Question

T

tsuehpsyde

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 22, 2004
Messages
6,604
Okay, so I consider myself rather acute in hearing differences in audio. I use the phrase audiophile loosely, but when it comes to hardcore decisions and following stuff, no, definitely not there. As long as I'm 80-90% of the way there, I'm cool. I do appreciate clear sound though, but minute differences (or placebo differences, heh) I don't fret over.

However, my Audigy 2 ZS recently died (or my PCI bus died, not sure which to be honest) and I need to get a new sound card.

First and foremost, this is for a Windows 7 box. It's used mostly for:

Gaming
Music
Movies

Gaming/Music are pretty much equal. Movies a close second/third.

Now, my first thought was to just keep Creative and go X-Fi. Which then lead me to the X-Fi Titanium (which is $80 shipped right now from Newegg). Also, for $100 @ Best Buy, I can get the X-Fi Fatal1ty. Now, I hate Fatal1ty's stuff, especially at retail, but the Fatal1ty one has X-RAM (64MB) for gaming, but requires OpenAL or something to use it. It also has EMI shielding, and while cool, I doubt that I need it.

Then, I read up on the Asus Xonar series since they're supposedly providing better analog output. Lots of pricing there. And some other companies as I've read here and XS. It's a lot to soak up.

My setup is a set of Z-5300e's in a 2.1 setup since

1. I have no space for 5.1, and
2. The amp is painfully underpowered.

The sound in 2.1 is very clear and the bass sounds good (as good as I can have it in an apartment complex, anyway). But now that I need a new card, preferably PCI-E, I need some help.

Suggestions? Ideally, I want something that's 5.1/7.1 compatible, but 2.1 is all I really need right now. I doubt you can even buy 2.1? My main concern is a great analog DAC, preferably over PCI-E. I dunno much about the signal processors being used now, so I leave it in this forums hands to hopefully help me out.

Thanks for any info you can provide. :)
 
yeah you can sadly still buy stereo multimedia soundcards, but nothing that you've looked at, and more or less nothing in your price range will be anything less than 5.1 (theres a few semi-pro/pro interfaces in the $100-$200 range that are stereo or quad channel, but you'll know them if you see them)

now to the program:
X-RAM is actually available on X-Fi cards, however not all of them have 64MB installed, basically its a local cache for the processor to use for effects/processing, it doesn't require OpenAL to take advantage of, per se, would you accept a magical black box as a reason to just not worry about it? (basically theres always abstraction, if the card has more memory it can use it as long as its actually providing h/w acceleration, so unless you're playing a game that does it in software, its taking advantage to some degree)

the more direct question: Does X-RAM matter for gaming?
with a somewhat simple answer: yes, it does provide a performance increase for using the various h/w accelerated features of the card (which aren't available unless you have the card)

so it isn't a feature I'd exactly kill to have, it'll either provide no difference in performance, or slight improvements

as far as Xonar vs X-Fi, you're making over-generalizations, Xonar is a WIDE range of products, just like Sound Blaster, not all of them are better than all Sound Blaster cards (however with the amount of frothy hatred towards Creative over this, that, and the other thing (most of which isn't their fault, but they exacerbate by dragging their lawyers into it) you'll probably get mixed signals on this), the high end Xonar boards are comparable to the high end Creative boards, there isn't a good mid-range or low-end comparison, mostly because Creative's pricing scheme has fallen apart in the last year

as far as PCIe vs PCI, there is no advantage, unless you just need the physical compatibility

now, on to your budget and whats available
theres the two Creative boards you've found, as well as a few PCI options
theres also Auzentech, which is a 3rd party manufacturer that's got a few boards on the market with Creative chipsets

since you're wanting PCIe, we'll try to ignore the PCI based options, that leaves:
Creative:
X-Fi Titanium - decent inexpensive board, multi-ch output, full X-Fi features
X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty - same as above, but X-RAM, slightly improved performance in some applications, $20 more, I'd go for it
Auzen:
X-Fi Forte - decent inexpensive board, full X-Fi features, plus headphone amplifier, good output card, been flavor of the month for a while
X-Fi Bravura - cheaper than Forte, supposed to be the same headphone amp, but lacks an X-Fi processor (uses a CA0110 instead of an EMU20k), probably wouldn't even consider it
Asus:
Xonar DX - very basic compared to any of the above in terms of I/O, decent software/internal features and output
Xonar D2x - far more input/output features than DX, costs about twice as much too

in terms of "what has the best quality", they're all fairly high spec outputs, and are all fairly close, I'm not really one to get into how they "sound" (you know: "this one sounds warmer than that one" type statements)

-bob
 
Yeah. PCI vs PCI-E isn't too much of a concern to be honest. I'd just prefer PCI-E for compatibility in the future (PCI slots are slowly dying). But I realize as far as the bus is concerned, PCI-E isn't required by any stretch. I'm giving my Audigy to a friend tomorrow to see if it works in his system to see if it's the card of my motherboard to blame.

As for the Xonar, yeah, I should have been more specific. The models I was looking at were the D2X (you listed) as well as the STX. I see they have an ST version as well, but that's PCI. Basically, anything within the X-Fi Titanium range or better, really. Sadly, I don't see the X-Fi getting anything higher than the Fatal1ty version of the Titanium, sans those that come with the fancy front bay controller, or the external controller. Even so, higher models may just offer different outputs or more 'stuff' beyond the analog out that I probably won't use.

Thans for clearing up the Auzen thing. I was a bit curious about the whole X-Fi from a 3rd party thing. I'm pretty far out of the loop on this stuff, and that makes sense.

I was just curious about the STX vs D2X, most posts I see say STX is better. Sadly, Newegg only lists the ST. Also, I noticed this card for roughly the same price as the X-Fi Titanium:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132006&cm_re=Xonar-_-29-132-006-_-Product

Seems like a straight up 7.1 card without all the whizbang-awesome features like digital out (which I've never used, but can appreciate the need for). However, the reviews seem mixed. Best I can tell, the X-Fi Titanium for $80 shipped is the best 'bang for the buck' best I can tell. Though the Fatal1ty one seems more possible if the X-RAM is actually usable by the card in all conditions. I read some reviews saying that only certain games could take advantage of it, but perhaps they meant simply the strain the games audio puts on the card? Not sure.

On the Forte, I saw that one referenced on XS I think, so I looked at it, and a few things struck me:

Price: A bit more expensive, not sure why
Plugs: I only see 3 plugs, and some spider of cables to handle 7.1

It also has a slim form factor, but I see a replacement bracket with it. I just know that swapping those out can suck, have had to do it in the past. My main question is, does it have a better DAC than the creative cards? I'm just trying to figure out what makes it better than Creative's own cards (I see lots of recommendations for it).
 
go back and re-read my post

I did mention the Xonar DX and Forte

you're worrying about the inconsequential and ignoring the important basically


as far as X-RAM, for like the 1000th time that I've said this to a forum audience:
it is NOT something that code has to be written for, it is NOT some extra API call to utilize it
it is just like having memory on your graphics adapter, the developer doesn't have to write any special code there
it provides an advantage when the X-Fi chip is actually performing calculations, which means games where h/w acceleration matters (Source engine based games are a great example of games that DON'T use h/w acceleration, most Battlefield games DO)

-bob
 
To quote me:

Though the Fatal1ty one seems more possible if the X-RAM is actually usable by the card in all conditions (since you pointed out how it worked). I read some reviews saying that only certain games could take advantage of it, but perhaps they meant simply the strain the games audio puts on the card? Not sure. (as in, not sure why they said only certain games were compatible)
Click to expand...

I 100% understand what you said. :p Sorry you missed that. My only real question, as I posted below, is if the DAC on the Forte is different than the Creative X-Fis. =P
 
as far as the X-RAM thing, they mean if the game uses h/w acceleration or not, nothing exists which can actually "strain" the EMU20k processor running 8ch or less of audio, however plenty exists that won't even run on it beyond passing signals through it (think about CPU rendered video vs GPU rendered video)

as far as "is the DAC different", yeah it is
is it better? depends on which X-Fi board we're talking about
Titanium/Fatal1ty? probably about equal analog outputs, Forte has the hp amp
Elite Pro/Prelude? no
XtremeAudio/Music? yes

we on the same page now? :)
-bob
 
Indeed. :) I was looking at the Titanium, but I wasn't aware the Elite Pro/Prelude (both X-Fi cards I see) had a better DAC than the Titanium. Hmm. The Elite Pro has that extra external remote base station that seems unneeded. I take it the Elite Pro does not come as a stand alone card?

If not, then the Prelude may be in my future, heh. How much better is the Prelude over the Forte (both cards I see recommended lots), simply speaking on the DAC. Since I'm going to be using the analog out, that's my main point of concern.
 
tsuehpsyde said:
Indeed. :) I was looking at the Titanium, but I wasn't aware the Elite Pro/Prelude (both X-Fi cards I see) had a better DAC than the Titanium. Hmm. The Elite Pro has that extra external remote base station that seems unneeded. I take it the Elite Pro does not come as a stand alone card?

If not, then the Prelude may be in my future, heh. How much better is the Prelude over the Forte (both cards I see recommended lots), simply speaking on the DAC. Since I'm going to be using the analog out, that's my main point of concern.
Click to expand...

As I said before, you're worrying about the inconsequential
the D/A's on these boards are all excellent, the analog output stages in general are excellent as well, you're talking about tenth or hundredth of a percent improvements in THD/IMD and 1-2% improvements in SNR for speakers that will introduce at least a thousand times as much distortion on average

the Elite Pro used to be available as a standalone card as part of a package with a headset, but that deal ended a long time ago, and that card is pointless without the I/O box (ALL it has without the box are output jacks)
the Prelude's main advantages over the Forte are on the input side (it has much better A/D's), the output improvements are there, but for the price difference I wouldn't worry all that much (honestly the Titanium is more than good enough in terms of output quality)

generally I suggest the Prelude or EP for what they're more or less designed for: multimedia use, for basic stereo output of music and movies into speakers, and gaming, the X-Fi Forte, X-Raider, or Xonar DS (or DX) would be just as good at half or less the price
 
Cool. Thanks for your help. :) I'm just focused on the DAC since everyone seems to slam the DAC on the X-Fis as being sub-par compared to other cards (without being very specific). I guess it's just people spreading around incorrect facts, or over emphasizing what's not all that important.
 
tsuehpsyde said:
Cool. Thanks for your help. :) I'm just focused on the DAC since everyone seems to slam the DAC on the X-Fis as being sub-par compared to other cards (without being very specific). I guess it's just people spreading around incorrect facts, or over emphasizing what's not all that important.
Click to expand...

it depends on which X-Fi card is being discussed and under what circumstances

a lot of complaints I've read about X-Fi compared to some Asus/HT Omega/etc product is usually a user with the absolute CHEAPEST POSSIBLE X-Fi (like XtremeAudio or whatever other ~$45-$50 card, or whatever came OEM in their system from Dell or HP) comparing it to a $150-$250 add-in board, its like buying a GeForce 9400 and comparing it to a Radeon 5970 and deciding all nVidia products are under-performing garbage as a result, there isn't much logic there
 
Even though I don't really understand half the stuff in this thread I appreciate all the info :p. I'm in the market for a new sound card, Audigy 2 ZS (mic) isn't playing well with Left 4 Dead 2 and the X-Fi Titanium sounds like the card to go with. ZipZoomFly has it for $125.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top