Sound Blaster Zenith PCI-X?

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steviep

Supreme [H]ardness
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So when is this thing coming out? I'm planning on getting my new rig when the Intel 955x chips come out ("April-June" - most likely June). And I want to upgrade from my aging Live 5.1, and the Audigy series wouldn't be a very future-proof upgrade.

What I mean is that when I get a component, it usually stays in my computer for a very long time. When I spend big bucks, I want to get the most for my money.

So, getting a new rig, I would love to use one of those damned PCI-Ex slots that they keep pushing on us. Buying a PCI audigy that will be out of date in a year doesn't cut it for me. I've been hearing rumblings about Creative's new venture (the Zenith line) and how it will use PCI-EX, but I haven't gotten a date for it. Anyone have any idea when this thing is coming?
 
I think you mean PCI-e. PCI-X is for servers and workstations and such.

That said, why do you feel like you need a PCI-e soundcard? What is unsatisfactory about PCI soundcards? PCI slots should be around on motherbaords for quite some time to come.
 
Sorry, I did mean PCI-e. Anyway, I don't want to spend a huge amount of money on a soundcard when something this big is around the corner, apparently. It's just like me going out and buying a PC with the Intel 925XE chip, with the 955 that supports dualcore around the corner. Why put myself in a dead-end upgrade-wise? Not that I'd be opposed to an Audigy 4, but as I said... lots of money, want the latest gizmos :)
 
There's nothing "big" about an interface change. Unless Creative adds Dolby Digital Live capability or something actually big, it's not worthwhile. It'll be many, many years until PCI gets phased out. ISA slots were common in mainstream and enthusiast boards until like 2001. Consider that the PCI interface was introduced in 1995, and back then, there was a real need for a new interface. As it is now, PCI can handle a vast array of needs, and the sheer number of PCI peripherals means it's not going away any time soon.
 
Keep being stubborn and use the PCI interface then since it sounds like you dont care about progress and moving forward lol. I for one would never buy legacy components if I was building a new machine.

I think the original poster has every right to want to buy the latest with his hard earned money. It only makes sense if you want to future proof your investment for as long as possible. I too am very interested in the Zenith, but it has been a complete secret thus far with Creative Labs.
 
There is nothing legacy about PCI. I'm sure you still use sata or ata hard drives. Why not scsi, its faster? Legacy products are things that are no longer produced. I'm sure that they will be making standard PCI devices for years to come, because nothing really uses up all the PCI bandwidth and because there isn't enough bandwidth from the cpu for a whole array of PCI-E slots.
 
The main attraction to PCI Express/SATA I have (besides potential bandwidth) is that each device has its own seperate bandwidth pipe. No devices share bandwidth like vanilla PCI devices/IDE do.
 
Thank you Mike!!
I also forgot to mention... the new motherboards come with less PCI slots, and I'm going to NEED those PCI slots for other things (i.e. a 2-port IDE card). I want to put those PCI-e slots to use, and what better use than a Zenith? When I'm spending hard-earned cash on something new, it may as well be the latest tech, instead of something that I'll have to replace in 2-3 years.

I'm sure Creative will add something that will surpass their current line (i.e. DD Live)... I just want to know when the hell they're going to release it! I saw a site a while ago that said "March 2005" but ... March has passed. Anyone?
 
Don't be so sure. Creative hasn't had any real competition for years. They are in no hurry to innovate.
 
Creative did not produce the AGP solution for graphics- Like PCI before it, and PCIe after it, AGP was produced by Intel. Furthermore, Creative never created a GPU themselves- them slapping a GPU on a card holds no relevence to them making a PCIe solution in the future, as GMC stated, they are very slow innovators, given both the tech they currently hold and refuse to use (Aureal) as well as the tech that they lack in comparison to even onboard solutions (HD Audio/DD Live!). That said, I certainly would be pleased to see a PCIe card from them, as that would bode well for use in an SFF that has only a 16x PCIe slot and 1x PCIe slot (thermal dissipation of the GPU to be considered later).
 
They won't bring out a new product line without a good number of innovative features.
 
GodsMadClown said:
Really? That's funny. Arguably, Creative has been doing just that since the Audigy.
Click to expand...

Seconded. You could almost argue even further back to the SoundBlaster Live!.

Currently, I can't see an audio device saturating the standard PCI bus, and as so many of today's modern components have already been moved off the PCI bus (NForce3/4 Gigabit Ethernet is a good example) there isn't much for a sound card on the PCI bus to compete with, even if you consider a TV tuner card or a modem. The only current PCI cards that I see as an exception (and these cards might truly make sense to see in PCIe though none are available that I know of) would be SATA/IDE controllers, or SCSI controllers, where dedicated throughput could be an issue. PCIe has far more bandwidth than a sound card is likely to ever need.

I wouldn't bet the ranch that Creative would offer major innovations when introducing a PCIe sound card. They could easily rely on it just being new to sell cards, there are plenty of "jump on the bandwagon" types out there that would upgrade their Audigy 2 to a similar card just because of the PCIe bus. The development of PC audio has stagnated quite a bit in the past few years, largely due to Creative, who has driven other innovative competitors into the ground through lawsuits or takeovers, or a combination of the two. All they need to do is offer a slight upgrade in the DAC like they have in the past, so they can claim a slightly higher signal-to-noise ratio, and sales will follow.

And by the way, if you choose wisely, you don't need to worry about the number of PCI slots available. My MSI K8N Neo 4 Platinum has four PCI slots in addition to its PCIe, and I have two that are empty. I have eight SATA ports so I won't need any more, and room for up to ten USB 2.0 ports, plus firewire ports, two gig ethernet ports, etc. already on the board.
 
My next mobo will be the Asus premium model of the 955x that's coming out soon. While you're right about PCI audio not saturating the BUS, I would still be willing to bet that since they're changing the name from "Audigy" to "Zenith", they are not just going to offer a minor DAC upgrade and call it a day.

Still no one with info on the new cards? As I said, the reason for me wanting to buy is that I don't want to get an Audigy 2/4 card when there is a new "big one" on the horizon.
 
steviep said:
I would still be willing to bet that since they're changing the name from "Audigy" to "Zenith", they are not just going to offer a minor DAC upgrade and call it a day.
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Funny you say that, because the SoundBlaster Live! and the SoundBlaster Audigy are so similar the drivers are written such that one card can function as the other.
 
xonik said:
Funny you say that, because the SoundBlaster Live! and the SoundBlaster Audigy are so similar the drivers are written such that one card can function as the other.
Click to expand...

Isn't the differences just a revision of the chip? Something like the SB Live's use the Emu10k1 and Audigy's use the Emu10k2?
 
The 64 hardware channels is not a bandwidth limitation, but a hardware and driver limit. The Audigy 2 NX supports 64 channels but sure has less bandwidth to play with than a PCI card.

I think the only differance between the 101k1 and the 101k2 is the ammount of effects that can be added through hardware to a channel, hence better support for eax.
 
GodsMadClown said:
Don't be so sure. Creative hasn't had any real competition for years. They are in no hurry to innovate.
Click to expand...
They have... well... sorta...
They don't have competition when it comes to EAX capabilities since they have patents on this technology and don't license anything newer than EAX2 to anyone. But when it comes to audio quality, Creative has always been pretty lazy. Their DACs plain suck compared to other cards.
 
sth said:
But when it comes to audio quality, Creative has always been pretty lazy. Their DACs plain suck compared to other cards.
Click to expand...
I'd like to hear your proof on this.
 
You can hear it if you connect the card to a real hifi system or even relatively cheap monitor speakers. I had the chance to compare an Audigy2 vs. a Terratec DMX 6fire over passive Alesis Monitor One MKII speakers ($150/pair) powered by a mid-range denon amplifier. The difference between the cards is clearly audible. It's even worse when the emu10k-chip needs to resample internally.

Links:
http://www.io.com/~kazushi/audiocard/
http://www.amd.co.at/soundcard/

Of course Creative wants to target the gaming market with the Audigy series (EAX and stuff) and that's the reason why I'm also waiting for the Zenith. But why can't they give a good audio quality as other soundcard makers can in this price range?
 
We'll see what they do with the new Zenith, audio quality wise. Maybe they will give us the card we've been waiting for? (i.e. great gaming support, AND better audio quality)
 
DD encoding is the feature to wait for. Of course, that will make proprietary 3d algorithms and effects obsolete.
 
steviep said:
Thank you Mike!!
I also forgot to mention... the new motherboards come with less PCI slots, and I'm going to NEED those PCI slots for other things (i.e. a 2-port IDE card). I want to put those PCI-e slots to use, and what better use than a Zenith? When I'm spending hard-earned cash on something new, it may as well be the latest tech, instead of something that I'll have to replace in 2-3 years.
Click to expand...
If you really desperately want all the newest tech, then why are you using PCI IDE cards? Surely if youre looking at which is gonna use most bandwidth then sound, is gonna be a hell of a lot less bandwidth intensive than disk I/O. For that matter, if youre that bothered about legacy components why are you using IDE at all? Surely SATA, or scsi if youre already shelling out for a seperate controller?
 
sth said:
You can hear it if you connect the card to a real hifi system or even relatively cheap monitor speakers. I had the chance to compare an Audigy2 vs. a Terratec DMX 6fire over passive Alesis Monitor One MKII speakers ($150/pair) powered by a mid-range denon amplifier. The difference between the cards is clearly audible. It's even worse when the emu10k-chip needs to resample internally.

Links:
http://www.io.com/~kazushi/audiocard/
http://www.amd.co.at/soundcard/

Of course Creative wants to target the gaming market with the Audigy series (EAX and stuff) and that's the reason why I'm also waiting for the Zenith. But why can't they give a good audio quality as other soundcard makers can in this price range?
Click to expand...
I contend that an Audigy 2 ZS or Audigy 4 with ASIO drivers or Kernel Streaming would be much more difficult to pick out, especially in a proper BLIND test methodology.
 
steviep said:
So when is this thing coming out? I'm planning on getting my new rig when the Intel 955x chips come out ("April-June" - most likely June). And I want to upgrade from my aging Live 5.1, and the Audigy series wouldn't be a very future-proof upgrade.

What I mean is that when I get a component, it usually stays in my computer for a very long time. When I spend big bucks, I want to get the most for my money.

So, getting a new rig, I would love to use one of those damned PCI-Ex slots that they keep pushing on us. Buying a PCI audigy that will be out of date in a year doesn't cut it for me. I've been hearing rumblings about Creative's new venture (the Zenith line) and how it will use PCI-EX, but I haven't gotten a date for it. Anyone have any idea when this thing is coming?
Click to expand...

The Rumors I keep hearing are August and Oct., Personally I think July. 68 bucks for the Audigy2 ZS OEM isn't what I'd call big bucks. The SLI boards can have the few remaining slots blocked if you used two card with big coolers. See the SLI for Intel and AMD here?

If you're not doing SLI, you might have nothing to worry about, PCI will be around for quite a while.

It is almost sidesplitting funny how misinformation about Creative Labs as whole and their Sound Cards in particular are passed off here as Fact and goes uncorrected or even unchallenged. I know there are folks here who’s smart enough to know better, yet nothing is done.

I read threads here daily where folks don’t know the differences between Encoding and Decoding and Bypass. Post & Pre Processing of Decoded signals and the simple understanding of how it works is lost as well. Even when hard info is posted, it’s glossed over or just plain skipped.

Hey, I'm no know it all, I was fooled by Neo-6 with my Digital Out, sheesh!

The Audigy 2 and higher are the only consumer Cards and Sound Systems that can Decode 5.1 and DVD Audio in *HARDWARE*. They are the only ones shipping with a MLP Processor Chip on board. The rest use software, this causes Latency/Delay. Sound Storm was great at RAW Bypass During Games and DVD DECODES, something that's blocked by DRM now. nVidia would have a very hard time launching this in the current DRM dominated climate.

Example; I have PowerDVD 6 Deluxe that ships with Software MLP. I can record (analog 24bit/96KHz) via ASIO 2.0 in realtime in Full 5.1 with even the LLF where it is supposed to be. It's converted or encoded* to Discrete WAVE 5.1 on-the-fly! The key is to have have a 5.1 source or if you have Platinum or etc., 6 mics.

Anyone with this software one of these cards can test what I just said.

So many folks here are either;
A. Lying
B. Don't know what they're talking about.
C. Never used or didn't know how to use what they're talking about, or think they know.

The end result is a lot of misinformation. Anyone with real info or actually likes an Audigy 2 or 2ZS or better just get's called a !!!!!! and is simi-flamed.

These cards aren't perfect, but are much better than the rest of the *crap out there, oh, IMHO! I loved my Aureal SQ-2500 and I see EAX 3 and 4 to something similar to what the SQ 3500 might have been.

Donnie27
 
Im waiting for the zenith also, Im hoping it brings DD and other new features.. till then go AC'97! woooooooOOoo :D
 
xonik said:
I contend that an Audigy 2 ZS or Audigy 4 with ASIO drivers or Kernel Streaming would be much more difficult to pick out, especially in a proper BLIND test methodology.
Click to expand...

- It depends on knowing what to listen for - Most people can't even tell a cd from a 128kbit mp3 in a direct A/B comparison. Even less will hear the difference between two soundcards in that range but at least there are some people that do.
- ASIO drivers neither change the DACs nor do they bypass the sample-rate-limitations of the Audigy's DSP (when in use). The only thing a driver could do would be doing the resampling in software using a better quality algorithm but that would result in a high CPU usage and kill ASIO low latency performance.
 
So what is your claim?

The Audigy DSP can't do 16/44.1? 24/96? 24/192?
The Audigy 2 ZS/Audigy 4 have bad DACs?
 
sth said:
- It depends on knowing what to listen for - Most people can't even tell a cd from a 128kbit mp3 in a direct A/B comparison. Even less will hear the difference between two soundcards in that range but at least there are some people that do.
- ASIO drivers neither change the DACs nor do they bypass the sample-rate-limitations of the Audigy's DSP (when in use). The only thing a driver could do would be doing the resampling in software using a better quality algorithm but that would result in a high CPU usage and kill ASIO low latency performance.
Click to expand...


Resampling to 48khz isn't bad at all on foobar. I'm outputting ASIO with 0ms latency resampling to 48khz and I'm only seeing about 8% CPU usage on my old and busted P4 2.26.
 
xonik said:
So what is your claim?

The Audigy DSP can't do 16/44.1? 24/96? 24/192?
The Audigy 2 ZS/Audigy 4 have bad DACs?
Click to expand...

Their DACs aren't that great. The DACs in my receiver are a bit better, and the DACs in my CD player are a hell of a lot better than either.
 
with equipment more expensive than most of us will choose to afford for such a specific endeavour. -drunk
 
stunna said:
how do you compare DACS ?
Click to expand...

Easiest way is to hook several sources up to a receiver, and then just switching between them. I just pop a CD in and play the same track ripped to a FLAC file on my HDD to compare my CD player. The big problem with really doing anything more than a passive test is equalizing volume issues. Other than that, just switching back and forth can at least give you a basic idea.
 
You can look at numbers such as THD+N, SNR, bit depth and oversampling that they support, but it's fairly hard to say definitively that one is better than the other just because it has better numbers. Also, how you physically implement the DAC has a good amount to do with the final result. So you know, companies that produce good DACs would be Burr Brown, Analog Devices, Wolfson.. probably others.
 
BO(V)BZ said:
Resampling to 48khz isn't bad at all on foobar. I'm outputting ASIO with 0ms latency resampling to 48khz and I'm only seeing about 8% CPU usage on my old and busted P4 2.26.
Click to expand...
The Audigy can do the resampling in hardware so there isn't any noticable latency. But that's not the problem. The problem is that resampling should generally be avoided since resampling between different sample-rates always introduces resampling-artefacts (more or less hearable depending on the resampling algorithm in use).

I don't say Creative's Cards are bad. They are OK for most users but - for their next generation hardware - I wish they would offer the same audio quality as their competitors. Not more, not less.
 
sth said:
since resampling between different sample-rates always introduces resampling-artefacts
Click to expand...
...with the exception of integer multiples of a given sampling rate.
 
sth said:
The Audigy can do the resampling in hardware so there isn't any noticable latency. But that's not the problem. The problem is that resampling should generally be avoided since resampling between different sample-rates always introduces resampling-artefacts (more or less hearable depending on the resampling algorithm in use).

I don't say Creative's Cards are bad. They are OK for most users but - for their next generation hardware - I wish they would offer the same audio quality as their competitors. Not more, not less.
Click to expand...

The reason I have foobar do the heavy lifting is that the resampling algorythm built in hardware is really crappy on the Audigy line of cards.
 
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