Sony Teases New GPU Tech For the PS6

[erek]

“Much of it boils down to how the companies are working to make it easier for future GPUs to handle graphics upscaling, ray tracing, and the super-intensive path tracing techniques used to make game worlds look more realistic. Cerny says "the current approach has reached its limit," so Sony is working with AMD to integrate components of its next-gen RDNA architecture in future consoles. AMD's Huynh introduced Radiance Cores (similar in theory to Nvidia's RT Cores) that are dedicated to handling ray tracing and path tracing. In addition to Sony's new consoles having the new cores, they will almost certainly be built into AMD's future desktop GPUs, too, and likely within whatever it's assisting with in its Xbox partnership. “

Source: https://games.slashdot.org/story/25/10/11/0050217/sony-teases-new-gpu-tech-for-the-ps6

 

[LukeTbk]

I was going to say, we saw a little bit more juice specially going to TSMC 3N, but in the console maker mind

Flops over time xbox->xbox360->xbox one->Xbox X looked like

20->240->1,300->12,000

11x->4.5x->9.2x

Under 6x upgrade is maybe quite meh for them, the 357mm full Navi48(9070xt) has 48.66 tflops versus 13.3 for the full a bit smaller (335mm) Navi 22 (6750xt), a bit bigger and using a bit more power to have 3.7x amount of 32 bits FLOPs, could be hard to reach 5x.

The internal compression for everything with modern large cache could be interesting, specially for console game that will assume its presence.

 

[DouglasteR]

Much focus in hardware while the inovation in games is forgotten.

Where's the Sony that we knew and loved that prioritize ABOVE ALL ELSES GAMES GAMES GAMES, inovate, dare, try and see. Lot's of relics came from that philosophy.

But nowadays we have only a powerhouse that run remakes. Pitiful.

 

[DukenukemX]

Basically Sony wants AMD to innovate now so that their new PS6 doesn't look outdated when Nvidia comes up with something new. It's no secret that both Microsoft and Sony have been battling with PC gaming for some time and want to take back customers they lost to PC. Like it or not, but PC killed the console star and consoles are slowing dying while PC is quickly growing. No amount of fanboyism is going to change this fact. What cool unique tech Sony had for the PS5 was quickly disproven when Racket and Clank Rift Apart came to PC. During the course of the PS5 we've seen Nvidia innovate in ways that AMD had to catch up, and therefore also the PS5. Considering how tight AMD and Sony are, it's easy to see that Sony wants AMD to move ahead of Nvidia when it comes to graphics tech. Nvidia came up with DLSS and path tracing while AMD had to catch up with FSR4, thus proving that the better gaming experience is still on PC. PSSR which is still behind DLSS and FSR4, only works on some PS5 Pro games and doesn't even work on regular PS5. This is embarrassing for Sony as they're trying to make the PS5 the premium gaming experience.


View: https://youtu.be/5XOV3pZj8rI?si=otsQBj9p_CGBhnHZ

 

[Lakados]

Basically Sony wants AMD to innovate now so that their new PS6 doesn't look outdated when Nvidia comes up with something new. It's no secret that both Microsoft and Sony have been battling with PC gaming for some time and want to take back customers they lost to PC. Like it or not, but PC killed the console star and consoles are slowing dying while PC is quickly growing. No amount of fanboyism is going to change this fact. What cool unique tech Sony had for the PS5 was quickly disproven when Racket and Clank Rift Apart came to PC. During the course of the PS5 we've seen Nvidia innovate in ways that AMD had to catch up, and therefore also the PS5. Considering how tight AMD and Sony are, it's easy to see that Sony wants AMD to move ahead of Nvidia when it comes to graphics tech. Nvidia came up with DLSS and path tracing while AMD had to catch up with FSR4, thus proving that the better gaming experience is still on PC. PSSR which is still behind DLSS and FSR4, only works on some PS5 Pro games and doesn't even work on regular PS5. This is embarrassing for Sony as they're trying to make the PS5 the premium gaming experience.


View: https://youtu.be/5XOV3pZj8rI?si=otsQBj9p_CGBhnHZ

I’m hearing more and more that Microsoft is out of the race, and their next console is less console and more a mid range $1500 gaming PC.

 

[DukenukemX]

I’m hearing more and more that Microsoft is out of the race, and their next console is less console and more a mid range $1500 gaming PC.

Hopefully not costing $1,500. The thing needs to be affordable and run full Windows, or at the very least be able to run Windows applications. You'd think since the introduction of the first Xbox console that Microsoft would have merged Windows gaming with Xbox gaming? The benefits are clearly visible, but we know why Microsoft avoided this. This would mean that Xbox would have to compete with Valve and other PC software stores like Epic. The best Sony could do is put Linux on the PS6 and they'll never make that mistake ever again. Sony is focused on quality games which has worked out well for them, but they want to focus on becoming the premium gaming experience so that nobody thinking of buying a $500 graphics card would instead buy a $700 PS6.

 

[Flogger23m]

Basically Sony wants AMD to innovate now so that their new PS6 doesn't look outdated when Nvidia comes up with something new.

Makes sense. AMD is always lagging a bit, so Sony does want AMD to get better at things like upscaling. Because whether we like it or not, that is how the industry is heading, and consoles often don't run at native anyways.

Hopefully not costing $1,500. The thing needs to be affordable and run full Windows, or at the very least be able to run Windows applications.

Really pointless if it costs as much as a gaming PC. If it has full Windows, it has all the disadvantages of it. And the advantages of it. But at that point why not buy any other branded PC if all it will be is Microsoft's take on Alienware, even with a green logo. I'm sure if run right an Xbox branded line of gaming PCs and laptops can sell well but I doubt Microsoft will run it properly for long. We've seen many pre-built gaming PCs come and go. Few manage it right.

 

[LukeTbk]

Because whether we like it or not, that is how the industry is heading, and consoles often don't run at native anyways

Since PS3/Xbox 360 upscaling have been the norm, hardware upscaling tech in the Xbox360 was a big selling point, since non CRT monitor became popular upscaling as always been used in the industry the question being by what device and how, do you let the TV do it or you pre-upscale the signal.

Ana Chip xbox360: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2007/01/headstart/#page-2
The same menu is brought up, and I see that the 360 is upscaling the game into 1080p. Ana is doing a good job, as the game looks fantastic on that display running at that resolution.

Almost no PS4 and now PS5 game were played in native 4k (like very few were native 1080p on the xbox360/ps3 before), it is just mostly nothing is changing at all continuation.

 

[vegeta535]

$1000+ would proabaly be real for the next Xbox because they are going to rely on 3rd parties to developer them and not make and 1st party console. So the 3rd party manufacturers won't have the buying power and they will unlikely to go the lost leader route because they will not be making a percentage of the software sells.

 

[Marees]

I’m hearing more and more that Microsoft is out of the race, and their next console is less console and more a mid range $1500 gaming PC.

Hopefully not costing $1,500. The thing needs to be affordable and run full Windows, or at the very least be able to run Windows applications. You'd think since the introduction of the first Xbox console that Microsoft would have merged Windows gaming with Xbox gaming? The benefits are clearly visible, but we know why Microsoft avoided this. This would mean that Xbox would have to compete with Valve and other PC software stores like Epic. The best Sony could do is put Linux on the PS6 and they'll never make that mistake ever again. Sony is focused on quality games which has worked out well for them, but they want to focus on becoming the premium gaming experience so that nobody thinking of buying a $500 graphics card would instead buy a $700 PS6.

I'd expect a 5080 type performance (for a 5080 type price) from the next xbox. Xbox anniversary is next nov. So hopefully they reveal it then

The recent TSMC price hikes for 3nm are very concerning & so are the unrelenting global trade wars

Fingers crossed that we will get a full box with 5080 performance for less than $1000 from Microsoft

One thing Microsoft can do to keep the price affordable is go for lower power & cooling solution but board partners could release more fancier stuff (like the Lenovo Legion go) which retail for a very high price

The PS6 would probably target Dec 2027 & 5070 performance. By then TSMC 3nm prices could drop a bit. So hopefully PS6 will be $600 or less ...

 

[LukeTbk]

~270mm of rdna 5 gpu that we expect for the next console, lower power much smaller die versus a 9070xt countered by newer gen-TSMC 3N, but to be 20% faster than a 357mm 9070xt that use over 300 watt ?

Maybe with the IO on the other die and so on, but that sound like a massive performance jump.

A ps5 had about a 6700 performance with a 308mm gpu, the fully enabled navi 22 was about 20% faster than a 6700 on 335mm.

That mean a fully enabled and with PC power 300mm RDNA 5 gpu could be about 20% faster than a 5080 ? A cheap than 9070xt, 10070xt matching the 4090, 45% faster than the 9070xt ?

 

[Marees]

~270mm of rdna 5 gpu that we expect for the next console, lower power much smaller die versus a 9070xt countered by newer gen-TSMC 3N, but to be 20% faster than a 357mm 9070xt that use over 300 watt ?

Maybe with the IO on the other die and so on, but that sound like a massive performance jump.

A ps5 had about a 6700 performance with a 308mm gpu, the fully enabled navi 22 was about 20% faster than a 6700 on 335mm.

That mean a fully enabled and with PC power 300mm RDNA 5 gpu could be about 20% faster than a 5080 ? A cheap than 9070xt, 10070xt matching the 4090, 45% faster than the 9070xt ?

There is no confusion here. Xbox "magnus" is literally the successor to 9070xt (10070xt?) — subject to power constraints

You can expect the full 10070xt to perfectly match the 5080 in all respects

However the xbox console would have power restrictions. Need to see what Microsoft does here

By contrast PS6 is monolithic, slightly more performance than the halo mobile APU (or the 10060xt). So expect 5070 like performance from PS6

 

[LukeTbk]

You can expect the full 10070xt to perfectly match the 5080 in all respects

Yes that make more sense and the power constrained console version to be ~15%-20% slower than a 5080, about a full 9070xt going full power.

5080 is about 50% more power than the 5070, PS6 would be slower than the next Xbox/9070xt but still a bit faster than a 5070 I would expect, GB205 is 263mm of tsmc 5, 5070 is missing 4% of it. PS6 will have the big advantage of being monolithic, if they use mostly small zen6c core living lot of room and power to the gpu (zen5c + their cache fit in only 3mm) going a bit faster depending how faster RDNA 5 will be per watt than Blackwell.

 

[KazeoHin]

Also, clues are leading people to think that the Xbox Magnus will run the same OS as the Xbox ROG Ally. So it will be a PC that can install Steam, GOG, EGS, just running a console-trimmed version of Windows.

Which means OG Xbox, Xbox 360 and Xbox One BacCompat is potentially out the window.

 

[vegeta535]

Also, clues are leading people to think that the Xbox Magnus will run the same OS as the Xbox ROG Ally. So it will be a PC that can install Steam, GOG, EGS, just running a console-trimmed version of Windows.

Which means OG Xbox, Xbox 360 and Xbox One BacCompat is potentially out the window.

I doubt backwards capabilities will not be lost.

 

[Marees]

Also, clues are leading people to think that the Xbox Magnus will run the same OS as the Xbox ROG Ally. So it will be a PC that can install Steam, GOG, EGS, just running a console-trimmed version of Windows.

Which means OG Xbox, Xbox 360 and Xbox One BacCompat is potentially out the window.

They've repeatedly insisted on back compat. Also there is the licensing issue. The hardware has to be xbox & not PC

I am guessing what Microsoft can do is do a dual boot. One is console mode another is the Rog Ally X mode

That should overcome console only licensing issues

Tariffs is another story altogether. I believe PCs are exempt but console gamers have to pay tax on their hardwares

 

[LukeTbk]

The hardware of the first xbox (xbox 360 was a powerPC powerISA, I imagine they already run via emulator today, it could be a mix, an closed down enough windows that while you can install (or come with) some third party store, it is not the same binary and you cannot install programs on it, to make still count as a consoles.

And Xbox One had a virtual machine for games to make retro compatibiltiy relativeily easy as game run in virtualized environment on the original console already (they create a VM now that has similar capability/env to the Xbox One and it run very similar as before and should be easy on any x86 cpu of a new console)

 

[KazeoHin]

The hardware of the first xbox (xbox 360 was a powerPC powerISA, I imagine they already run via emulator today, it could be a mix, an closed down enough windows that while you can install (or come with) some third party store, it is not the same binary and you cannot install programs on it, to make still count as a consoles.

And Xbox One had a virtual machine for games to make retro compatibiltiy relativeily easy as game run in virtualized environment on the original console already (they create a VM now that has similar capability/env to the Xbox One and it run very similar as before and should be easy on any x86 cpu of a new console)

It's not about things working on X86, it's about opening the absolutely diabolical licensing and IP can of worms that is retroactively giving these titles a way to work on WINDOWS.

It's 100% possible to develop, as you said the console runs X86 and in a VM, but developmentally possible isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about legally and financially possible.

Porting two decades worth of games that were previously licensed to consoles to then work natively inside of Windows, with a lot of this software only being available as old pre-owned discs from yonder years... Is a legal and financial liability.


I think the only way Microsoft would be able to work around this is to have a "Windows" VM that runs things like Steam/EGS etc. Inside of a container, but I would imagine that would be incredibly janky and also NOT AT ALL what they're doing for the ROG Ally.

 

[LukeTbk]

It's not about things working on X86, it's about opening the absolutely diabolical licensing and IP can of worms that is retroactively giving these titles a way to work on WINDOWS.

I doubt it will be called windows and will let you install application too (not just to avoid the licensing issue, but also the point of the box existence versus a regular PC will be a very controlled environment), they will still want to offer aggressive pricing in exchange for that very controlled environment to boost post sales moneytisation in some ways, you do not want to create a box entreprise buy to run blender , solidworks (and a good list of things that would like a powerful cpu-gpu combo at a good price), but you do not want to price it so high that it would not be worth it to do, so you make an XboxOS that let you run a version of steam, epyc and steam/epyc games.

They will want it for a console mode UI and tweak, but also legal and OEM market reason. I am not sure how easy it is to make so that a steam game can be installed and played without having to patch it but not Blender, but that something they will try to do, only game that require a game launcher (DRM) in some way will be available in the Xbox OS version of the apps.

A bit like the Windows S OS, that only launch executable that are from the microsoft store

It's 100% possible to develop, as you said the console runs X86 and in a VM, but developmentally possible isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about legally and financially possible.

The hardware must be Xbox not regular PC APU/ram made it sound to me like some technical side of things that I misread here.

I think the only way Microsoft would be able to work around this is to have a "Windows" VM that runs things like Steam/EGS etc. Inside of a container, but I would imagine that would be incredibly janky

Less and less, on XBox game run in a VM since XboxOne, when you play on Geforce NOW you play in a VM, windows HyperV/Kubernetes got extremely good at gpu and other performance linked support.

I think it will be a custom windows (made for TV ui), that lock everything but a few things to be launched even if the hardware is fully capable of running a lot of the windows' library, maybe they will bring the Xbox VM tech to have the fast switching of game and other Xbox niceties over regular PC has well (and make running Xbox 360/one era game easier).

 

[Marees]

ML upscaling in Playstation 6 could be a huge leap forward, if we go by AMD patents

https://x.com/MrMPFR/status/2017709965209723160?s=20