something wrong!!!

R

rysher

Gawd
Joined
Oct 13, 2005
Messages
895
i think something wrong with my WC set-up, as my temperatures compared to my zalamn9500 is much higher.
my zalman at load is 44C, my WC at load is 51C.
my zalman idle is 37C, my WC idle is 44C.

and all my benchmarks went down:
superpi used to be: 32s now is 36s
3dmark06 used to be: 4200 now is 3500.
---
my WC set-up is:
radiator>> CPu>> reservoir>> pump>> radiator
my parts are:
Storm CPU waterblock
black ice xtreme 120
DD D5 pump
dual 3.5 reservoir.
---
my system spec:
opteron [email protected]
a8n32
wd raptor 74gb
1gb 3500 corsair xms pro.
---
ANY HELP AND ADVICES IS GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!
 
Mmm, for a single Xtreme radiator that doesn't sound TOO out of the ordinary. What fan do you have on the Xtreme? Those things love high RPM (Or I should say high static pressure) fans. Slower, with lower pressure fans, well... don't fare so well. Is there any way you could get a dual radiator up in there? I had an Xtreme 120 for my CPU at one time, and I'll tell you, it really didn't do very well, my load temps were in the very high 40's on a 400mhz overclock (Athlon X2 3800).

Secondly, have you looked inside your Storm yet? There are some cases where pieces of machined copper are stuck in the block. Try reseating the block too. Since you had a zalman, I'm guessing you're not a total noob and know the proper way to mount a waterblock :).

Lastly, I have to wonder why your benches went down... Unless you changed the clockspeed... there should really be very little performance difference. Try running the test again with *nothing* running in the background. Did you accidently clear your BIOS? Clearing the CMOS battery reverts the BIOS back to standards (Which sometimes default to a lower RAM divider, for example my old ASROCK board default back to DDR333).
 
Arcygenical said:
Lastly, I have to wonder why your benches went down... Unless you changed the clockspeed... there should really be very little performance difference. Try running the test again with *nothing* running in the background. Did you accidently clear your BIOS? Clearing the CMOS battery reverts the BIOS back to standards
Click to expand...
that's what i am also wondering. since nothing was resetted:
memory speed is the same (227Mhz at 9/11);
cpu speed is the same (2.5Ghz) ;
HTT the same (277Mhz);
devider the same ( 9x);
latencies are the same (2-3-2-5 at 1T);
voltage is the same (1.392v)
whenever i run benchmarks nothing is running on the background as not to interfere with benchmarks.

Arcygenical said:
What fan do you have on the Xtreme?
Click to expand...
scythe fan: 20dB at 49CPM

Arcygenical said:
Is there any way you could get a dual radiator up in there?
Click to expand...
no, there's just no way. i made a 120mm circle on top of my case w/ a dremel, and i can't fit anything else in there because my PSU is also there. the case is a lian-li pc65B.

Arcygenical said:
Secondly, have you looked inside your Storm yet? There are some cases where pieces of machined copper are stuck in the block. Try reseating the block too.
Click to expand...
have restted the block, but havent looked inside the cpu block yet. i will try that...
 
put in the zalman back, got better temperatures= 37C idle. and got back my old benchmark results...............

this is getting intriguing.
 
it's almost certainly the fan/rad.

the black ice xtreme series is a very lousy match for a super low noise fan like yours. a black ice pro rad would fare better.

there could be additional problems from kinks, entrained air and whatnot but the rad/ is probably the first thing to deal with.

the change in performance resulting from changing temperatures indicates likely thermal throtteling. check your BIOS settings.
 
what is thermal throtteling? what will i look in the BIOS setting for thermal throtteling.
 
Thermal throttleing is most certainly happening. Otherwise benches would be the same. And put a better fan on that 120 rad...
 
I'd also check to make sure that the pump is running at speed setting 4 or 5. If its at 2 or 1 that could be hurting you alot too.
 
The correct spelling is "throttling".

Differences between performance at various pump settings should be minimal.

Though the BIX coupled with the over-rated Scythe fan is a poor move, it's still moving air, so performance should be better than with the Zalman.

I'd venture to guess that there are one or more significant kinks.

Oh, and the Flash player just told me that my highly overclocked dual processor machine can't handle these damn Flash ads. Son of a bitch! I guess it's time to reinstall the Proxomitron.
 
Imitation said:
Thermal throttleing is most certainly happening. Otherwise benches would be the same. And put a better fan on that 120 rad...
Click to expand...
thermal throtteling, if the CPU goes hot the BIOS automatically adjusts the CPU speed to compensate for the heat. thermal throtteling is certainly not the problem. i just found out what thermal throtteling is, and it's not the problem as my AI NOS is disabled. refcommend me a better fan that is below 25db... otherwise it is just as noisy as the zalman.

Imitation said:
I'd also check to make sure that the pump is running at speed setting 4 or 5. If its at 2 or 1 that could be hurting you alot too.
Click to expand...
RIGHT ON!!! thanks a million!
the pump was set at 2. i set it to 5 and my temps went down 6C. The same as my zalman temperature now which is 38C.


Now i am beginning to wonder if watercooling is worth the extra $$$ as i din't see anymuch of a temperature decrease from my zalman. i was hoping to get temperatures of 5-10C less than my zalman. was hoping to get temps of 32-35 idle. my zlaman idles at 36-38C.
 
Going from air to water WILL NOT cause a change in benchmarks. Something else had to of changed also. If it is heat related then throttling of some kind occured.

Plus your w/c setup is somewhat poorly designed. Very bad choice of rad / fan combo. It is only as good as the forethought you put into it...
 
rysher said:
refcommend me a better fan that is below 25db... otherwise it is just as noisy as the zalman.
Click to expand...
You've measured the Zalman? It's tough to be able to take any of these ratings with any grain of salt - there's no validation involved. The Zalman might be spot on 25dB (from three feet, on-axis, I guess) or it may actually be higher.

I don't have an SPL meter on me, but 120mm Yate Loons are probably very close to what they're rated at (28dB, no details on distance that I'm aware of, but assume three feet), and they move 49cfm, which I certainly can't be certain about. There are also some CoolerMaster fans floating around that are rated at about 59cfm at 30dB, which is probably an honest rating.

The problem is your radiator. It has a fin density designed for high volume, high pressure fans. You need a radiator designed for low volume fans, such as the PA120 series or BIP/BIP GT series. You need to move up to a fan that can generate much more pressure before you begin to see improvements from swapping fans.

Can't explain the dramatic improvment from changing pump speeds.
 
You could also add a second fan to the rad, this will help to overcome the back-pressure you're up against. As to why the marked improvement with the pump setting...he's running a Storm, the Storm loves flow and he wasn't giving it to it.
 
madmat said:
You could also add a second fan to the rad, this will help to overcome the back-pressure you're up against.
Click to expand...
i can't add an xtra fan is there is really no space.

BTW, the air coming out from the radiator is really warm. i left the computer running the whole night and when i checked it this morning the temperature was 48C, not even close w/ the zalman 9500 at 38C.
maybe i shoud just dip the radiator in ice. damn, i am beginning to regret this WC.

is there anyway to chill the water in the reservoir?

pics:






 
have you considered using a swiftech radbox to mount a BIP2 rad with two quiet fans, as an alternate to your current fan and rad?

have you considered adding a BIP rad with a swiftech radbox, in addition to your current rad?

as i said, your choice of rad does not match the fan that you are using. the fan that you are using is also on the low end for use with a single fan rad.

additionally, if you have turned the pump to max and it doesn't bother you, you could be using a significantly louder fan without worry. that pump is 35 dB when running full speed, same noise level as your hard drives. there are differences in frequency, but running a fan in the low 20 dBs just doesn't match the rest of your system's performance/noise range.

you can have your cake and eat it too, with carefull planning, but you can't have two cakes at once.

you need to sit down and decide if you 1) want to deal with a fan that is louder, but still quieter than the pump 2) add an additional rad with an additional quiet fan to your existing loop 3) scrap your current rad as it is not a good match for your goals, and go with a single large rad suited for low noise opperation, and with room to WC the GPU as well.

you have a loud drive, a loud pump and air cooling on the GPU. you are poorly set up if silence is your ultimate priority. decide where you are going to give a little groud and talk to people on the forums (as you have started to do) about what you can do where.
 
madmat said:
As to why the marked improvement with the pump setting...he's running a Storm, the Storm loves flow and he wasn't giving it to it.
Click to expand...
I don't think this is the case. It's possible that there is something causing a great deal of restriction that shouldn't be there, or the pump is at least partially defective. Remember that there's always a balance between inline heat dump and flow rate/head - a low setting may have actually benefitted him due to the fact that his setup can't effectively dissipate heat into the air. This is if there weren't some other underlying issue.

I'd imagine I would have done some bucket testing and popped open the block by this point. It's possible jacking up the pump setting unclogged something in the block, but I doubt it.
 
DFI Daishi said:
have you considered using a swiftech radbox to mount a BIP2 rad with two quiet fans, as an alternate to your current fan and rad?
Click to expand...
i want it all internal.

DFI Daishi said:
as i said, your choice of rad does not match the fan that you are using. the fan that you are using is also on the low end for use with a single fan rad.
Click to expand...
recommend me a fan. i was looking at the scythe 1600rpm with 60CPM.

DFI Daishi said:
you need to sit down and decide if you 1) want to deal with a fan that is louder, but still quieter than the pump 2) add an additional rad with an additional quiet fan to your existing loop 3) scrap your current rad as it is not a good match for your goals, and go with a single large rad suited for low noise opperation, and with room to WC the GPU as well.
Click to expand...
OK, here is what i want to gain= low temperatures with acceptable noise.
i don't plan to WC the GPU for now, but i'd like to have that option later on.
recommend me a suitable radiator for my setp up. better yet, recommend me a radiator and a fan with the goal of low temperatures with acceptable noise and all internal.

i thought black ice xtreme is better than black ice pro because of the rated BTU.
black ice xtreme 120= 790cal/hr (3134BTU per hour)
black ice pro 120= 378cal/hr (1501 BTU per hour)
i am really getting confused now. i have already spent a considerable amount of money on this, and i don't want to give up just yet. i know i am a noobie and i know i won't get it right the first time.
 
rysher said:
i want it all internal.

recommend me a fan. i was looking at the scythe 1600rpm with 60CPM.

OK, here is what i want to gain= low temperatures with acceptable noise.
i don't plan to WC the GPU for now, but i'd like to have that option later on.
recommend me a suitable radiator for my setp up. better yet, recommend me a radiator and a fan with the goal of low temperatures with acceptable noise and all internal.

i thought black ice xtreme is better than black ice pro because of the rated BTU.
black ice xtreme 120= 790cal/hr (3134BTU per hour)
black ice pro 120= 378cal/hr (1501 BTU per hour)
i am really getting confused now. i have already spent a considerable amount of money on this, and i don't want to give up just yet. i know i am a noobie and i know i won't get it right the first time.
Click to expand...

Radiator: Swiftech MCR220
Fans: 2x120MM Yate Loons

I run 2x 7900GTs and a Opty 144 @ 1.5V with that setup and nothing in my loop hits 40C on load (with MCP655 on '5')
 
Volkum said:
Radiator: Swiftech MCR220
Fans: 2x120MM Yate Loons

I run 2x 7900GTs and a Opty 144 @ 1.5V with that setup and nothing in my loop hits 40C on load (with MCP655 on '5')
Click to expand...
are they internal? i measured the top of my case, and i really can't fit a 280mm radiator in thre. damn if only i knew, i would've gotten a larger case.
 
rysher said:
are they internal? i measured the top of my case, and i really can't fit a 280mm radiator in thre. damn if only i knew, i would've gotten a larger case.
Click to expand...
The case quest continues! :D
 
hey, my temperature went down to idle 38C from idle 47C all day. i had our fan blowing inside the case going out thru the radiator.
what's the strongest CPM 120 fan out there.
 
rysher said:
hey, my temperature went down to idle 38C from idle 47C all day. i had our fan blowing inside the case going out thru the radiator.
what's the strongest CPM 120 fan out there.
Click to expand...

Probably because it's blowing cooler air through the rad which would imply that you don't have very good intake airflow in the case. That or you've got too big of a deadspot (you using a shroud of any sort?) for the fan to effectively pull air through the rad.

Most powerful 120mm fan? I didn't do a ton of searching, but this is probably up there in terms of CFM.

P.S. Idle temps don't really mean anything. Load temps do.
 
They can get insane as to CFM but the db goes up at an astonishing rate when you do that. The bad thing about your setup is that the air that gets heated in your case rises and since your rad is also a blowhole it pulls all that warmed air in and through it which hurts temps. Couple that with the restrictive nature of that rad and you've got a bit of a problem.

You asked about why the BIP spanks the BIE at low airflow, well, it's like this. The BIP has a lower fin density meaning there are less fins per inch and it's a single row radiator so it's got less front to back displacement. This allows the fan to push more air through the rad (assuming the same fan is being used) due to less resistence. The BIE is designed to shed more heat but to do so it requires substantially more CFM of air pushed by fans with a better ability to push against a resisting force. Looking at a fan's spec sheet look not only at the CFM and db but at the in. or mm H2O it can displace. That's the working pressure of the fan and with your rad it's the most important number.

Basically 38mm thick fans displace more H2O than 25mm fans do so look for a fan that's 38mm thick and has the best balance between raw power and decent db numbers. You can also put the fan on a controller and just crank the fan speed up when gaming or doing CPU intensive tasks then drop it down to an agreeable level when you're just surfing the 'net or the machine is idle.
 
Buy a 77' Bonneville heater core, fit it with barbs, and use that. If you don't want to fit it with barbs yourself, I'm sure someone here sells pre-modded cores (2fresh comes to mind). You can run a couple undervolted 120mm panaflo fans and get excellent results. Besides, heater cores perform better IIRC, and cost less.

The reason I suggest the panaflo fans is they have a high statics pressure, and when undervolted, they retain quite a bit of it and aren't too loud either. They are also fairly inexpensive.

Oh, make sure you make a shroud as well, whether you use a heater core or PC-made radiator. Shrouds increase airflow efficiency by about 40%, and can muffle sound as well.
 
Volkum said:
Probably because it's blowing cooler air through the rad which would imply that you don't have very good intake airflow in the case. That or you've got too big of a deadspot (you using a shroud of any sort?) for the fan to effectively pull air through the rad.
Click to expand...
i have good air going in, 2x80mm intake, 1x90mm intake all intakes are in front.
air going out, 1x80mm at the back, 1x120mm PSU fan, and the 1x120mm pushing air thru the radiator. the PSU fan and the radiator fan are all at the top.
pics:
http://img375.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture0142ob.jpg
 
so long as the rad is attached to the case, the computer remains pretty portable.

so long as the rad is attached at the back of the case, it is not much of an eye sore. in normal opperation, it's simply not visable from the front of the machine.

my DIY solution for mounting an additional rad:

http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn12259pk.jpg
http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn12268wf.jpg
http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn12277ww.jpg

just using a few right angle brackets.

the swiftech radbox is not as visable in side-view, but either option is not visable when your computer's parked beside the desk and you're actually using it.

panaflo fans have guts and are really durable. it really like them, but they're not the best for undervolting. yate loons move less air, but undervolt much more quietly.
 
I agree with daishi, and just about everyone else in this thread.

U are in need of more radiators. Heck, my H20 loop didn't get back to ambient temps until I incorporated a 2nd 2.120 heater core. A single heater core wasn't cutting it for me. (it is a prescott tho)
X850XT_on_H209-vi.jpg

p.s. no way these guys are fitting in my case :(
 
A quick way to gain better temps without spending anymore money or modding your case is to change your fan directions.

1) Fan on rad= suck air into case.
2) 2x80mm = push air out of case
3) 90mm = push air out of case
4) psu fan = stay same, pushing air out of case

Give this a try for a quick and cost free fix...
 
plywood99 said:
A quick way to gain better temps without spending anymore money or modding your case is to change your fan directions.

1) Fan on rad= suck air into case.
2) 2x80mm = push air out of case
3) 90mm = push air out of case
4) psu fan = stay same, pushing air out of case

Give this a try for a quick and cost free fix...
Click to expand...

Now THAT could really help. Pulling in cool air could help alot.

OT: Plywood how's that mastige treating you? My coolview is nice, but it weighs a freaking ton!
 
Imitation said:
Now THAT could really help. Pulling in cool air could help alot.

OT: Plywood how's that mastige treating you? My coolview is nice, but it weighs a freaking ton!
Click to expand...

Really nice case. Layout is very efficient for its size. Think of it as a smaller Stacker...
 
plywood99 said:
A quick way to gain better temps without spending anymore money or modding your case is to change your fan directions.

1) Fan on rad= suck air into case.
2) 2x80mm = push air out of case
3) 90mm = push air out of case
4) psu fan = stay same, pushing air out of case

Give this a try for a quick and cost free fix...
Click to expand...
better yet, i got the whole radiator out of the case. my temps dropped significantly. went down to idle 33C load of 39C. NOW THAT'S WHAT ENCOURAGED ME TO GO WATERCOOLING!!!
since my fan was pushing out air from the case thru the radiator, i'd change it to sucking air from the outside of the case pushing cold air thru the radiator and i'll make a 120mm exhaust on the side of the case. since i can't change the direction of my 2x80mm fan as it is cooling the HDD.
 
rysher said:
better yet, i got the whole radiator out of the case. my temps dropped significantly. went down to idle 33C load of 39C. NOW THAT'S WHAT ENCOURAGED ME TO GO WATERCOOLING!!!
since my fan was pushing out air from the case thru the radiator, i'd change it to sucking air from the outside of the case pushing cold air thru the radiator and i'll make a 120mm exhaust on the side of the case. since i can't change the direction of my 2x80mm fan as it is cooling the HDD.
Click to expand...

Apparently the airflow in your case sucks then. IMO, use a rad box (and even then you could go 2x120 size rad).
 
rysher said:
better yet, i got the whole radiator out of the case. my temps dropped significantly. went down to idle 33C load of 39C. NOW THAT'S WHAT ENCOURAGED ME TO GO WATERCOOLING!!!
since my fan was pushing out air from the case thru the radiator, i'd change it to sucking air from the outside of the case pushing cold air thru the radiator and i'll make a 120mm exhaust on the side of the case. since i can't change the direction of my 2x80mm fan as it is cooling the HDD.
Click to expand...
using the fan to draw air through the rad, rather than push air through is just ever so slightly better, due to reduced turbulence in the rad fins.

if it's not feasible, no biggie. it really is a small difference.
 
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