Some questions about monitors

[firas]

excuse my newbie's questions folks but who would’ve thought that buying a monitor would be this hard

with keeping this in mind:

All LCD screens can actually display only a single given resolution referred to as the native resolution. This is the physically number of horizontal and vertical pixels that make up the LCD matrix of the display. Setting a computer display to a resolution lower than this resolution will either cause the monitor to use a reduced visible area of the screen or it will have to do extrapolation. This extrapolation attempts to blend multiple pixels together to produce a similar image to what you would see if the monitor were to display it at the given resolution but it can result in fuzzy images.

1- So if I bought SAMSUNG 245BW I will be forced to play all games at 1920 x 1200?
2- if yes, then I guess this will mean that I must use something like the GTX/Ultra otherwise I’ll be losing my FPS specially at Crysis right?
3- this also means that I’ll have to update my graphic card more frequently since I’m a “1920 x 1200” gamer and games at this resolution requires a strong graphic card specially any games that will be released in 2008 (and DX10.1 thing) right?
4- regarding Response Time, when does it make an issue for people who really cares about it? And when would it make an issue for people who doesn’t care about it (like me)?
5- again, is 5ms ok for an online CS:S player? is 8ms ok also?
Note that I have never noticed this ghosty stuff that you talk about and have a feeling that it’s not that important even if it was 20ms (though all my gaming experience where through CRT’s) so I’m trying not to make this an issue but I don’t want to regret it in the future

With keeping this in mind:

Unfortunately, the current choices fall into three categories, really:
1. TN: Low input delay, fast response time, crappy color/viewing angles.
2. MVA/PVA: Some input delay, slightly slower response time, decent color/viewing angles. A little pricier than TNs, but really only because they don't come in 22" typically.
3. IPS: Low input delay, newer ones have decent response time, excellent color/viewing angles. Brutal cost.

I couldn't afford the IPS, and I can't stand the colors/viewing angles of TN panels, so I got an MVA. Others will make different choices generally based upon the above.

And considering that the SAMSUNG 226BW was my choice and it’s a TN
6- does this really mean that it has crappy colors and viewing angles?
7- they mentioned that it’s viewing angles are 160°(H) / 160°(V), and though I don’t really know about this viewing angles but isn’t 160=180-20 ok? Or it’s like manufacturer’s measures the viewing angles as they like so there is no specific standard for this thing?
8- how do we technically know that the colors are crappy? I mean the 245BW for example has: Pixel Pitch 0.27mm, Display Colors 16.7 Million, Brightness 400 cd/m2 , Contrast Ratio 1000:1 (DC 3000:1), which one tells most if the colors are crappy or not? And since it might have relatively low number, what’s the ok number?

Ah, found these now

My son wanted a LCD HDTV or monitor in his bedroom for Computer games and Xbox 360 (then Playstation3 later)We were looking at response times at the same numbers you were. We came across a 32" Niko brand monitor at 20ms response times and immediately discounted it....until we started reading reviews on it. One person said the response times were erroneously reported on the sellers website. Another person said it was really 11ms. But then we started reading reviews of people that already bought it and played these games already and had no problems what so ever. So we bought it and they were right...NO GHOSTING AT ALL WITH ANY VIDEO GAME! No mouse arrow dragging , nothing! My neighbor, an Electrical Engineer, saw this and wanted one for his son...so he did his research and even though he SAW my son's monitor in action, didn't buy it because of the "20 or 11ms response times"....so he bought a View Sonic 32" monitor with 8ms response times....it ghosts like crazy!
This made me really change my views on the WHOLE response time thing. I don't know what to believe anymore and I basically go by user reviews or asking someone who owns it before we buy. Now, I'm involved in helping my older brother purchase a LCD HDTV for his house, just for HDTV viewing and have narrowed it down to a Sony 40" TV with 6-8ms response times with 10bit processing...and this will be for movies and his son using Xbox 360 occasionally....and I STILL have to wait until we talk to someone or read somewhere as to it's performance. Is this one of those "different companies rate things differently?"....I have no idea. We all get caught up in the numbers.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is find someone with this model you are choosing and go from there....the numbers can sometime be very deceiving from our perspective!

That's what responsive time is a measurement of. Doesn't actually tell you what the average response time for the screen is between a range of colors! Because LCD's are rated for grey to grey, LCD makers concentrate on getting the grey to grey response time down, and ignore the average response time. Meaning it's quite possible to have a LCD with a lower response time, actually have a worse average response time.

You're right: response time has essentially no impact on your 'lightning fast reflexes'. The 'response time' I'm pretty sure is just an indication of how long it takes to change a pixel's color, so obviously faster response times mean less ghosting. With a 60Hz refresh rate, there's 16.7ms between the frame changes so as long as the response time is below that there shouldn't be a huge issue.
These response times do not take into account how long it takes for the signal to get to that particular pixel in the first place, which can vary from model to model, in some cases significantly. I've seen tests where they'd compare a CRT and a LCD connected to the same computer showing an analogue clock tick and it was easy to tell the LCD was slow. It's these situations that would hurt your gaming performance. So personally I'd be more concerned with finding out if there's input lag than what the response time is.

Dammit this is confusing, so are response time and input lag (input delay) different things? <-- this is question 9

10- is this:ASUS PG221 better than the SAMSUNG 226BW? Regardless the price? Is it better cuz it’s a TFT LCD? Is it TN/IPS/MVA or what? 226BW is not a TFT LCD?

11- if we supposed that the 226BW did have a crappy colors, could it be cuz it has a 700:1(DC 3000:1) as a Contrast Ratio and the ASUS PG221 for example has Contrast Ratio 2000:1?

12- if my feeling that the ASUS PG221 has no cons was true, can I find some SAMSUNG out there that can match it?

13- I tried to answer the previous question through searching for some TFT LCD SAMSUNG, and kept finding this SyncMaster thing in the monitors name! so does SyncMaster means that it’s a TFT LCD SAMSUNG monitor?

14- is the TFT LCD an advanced version from the normal LCD? Is it S-IPS based monitor?

15- I thought that if I wanted to raise myself above the controversy (don’t know how it came) I should go for some IPS 22” one but seems that all 22” are TN (though things like the SPVA 22” lenovo l220x) and as you can see I’m creating other paths like the ASUS PG221 and the TFT LCD thing, can someone leed me to some good path please?

16- found this now, so is it an advanced version from the SAMSUNG 226BW ? Notice that it’s 3000:1 Contrast Ratio, 1680 x 1050 Resolution but the viewing angles are 160 instead of 180


Sorry for the big @ss thread but I tried to make most of the ansewer yes/no only
Allow me to post some personal references here:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/samsung_xl20.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_crystal_display
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_display
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viewing_angle
http://compreviews.about.com/od/multimedia/a/LCDSpecs.htm
http://www.monolitic.com/esp/Notas/def_angulos_vision.pdf
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1039222
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1245932

thnx

 

[Drags]

wow, massive thread! hopefully some answers for you:

1 - So if I bought SAMSUNG 245BW I will be forced to play all games at 1920 x 1200?

No, not at all. If you play at a lower resolution, the screen will interpolate the image up to fill the whole screen. The quality will be reduced a little, but on modern screens, this interpolation technique tends to be of high quality. For gaming, you should be fine. Not meaning to complicate things, but you may also want to consider whether the screen you buy has aspect ratio control or 1:1 pixel mapping. The Samsung 245B doesn't have this at a hardware level, which would mean any 4:3 or 5:4 aspect games would be stretched (unless you limit it at a software level)

2- if yes, then I guess this will mean that I must use something like the GTX/Ultra otherwise I’ll be losing my FPS specially at Crysis right?
3- this also means that I’ll have to update my graphic card more frequently since I’m a “1920 x 1200” gamer and games at this resolution requires a strong graphic card specially any games that will be released in 2008 (and DX10.1 thing) right?

see above, you wouldn't HAVE to play at 1920 x 1200, which can be a stress for graphcis cards of course

4- regarding Response Time, when does it make an issue for people who really cares about it? And when would it make an issue for people who doesn’t care about it (like me)?
5- again, is 5ms ok for an online CS:S player? is 8ms ok also?
Note that I have never noticed this ghosty stuff that you talk about and have a feeling that it’s not that important even if it was 20ms (though all my gaming experience where through CRT’s) so I’m trying not to make this an issue but I don’t want to regret it in the future

there is very little real difference between the 8ms and 5ms generation of TN Film panels in practice. Where you will see a marked improvement is with models using RTC / overdrive technologies, and offering G2G quoted response times. Most users find 5ms is fine really, and unless you're a really serious gamer, you should find this more than adequate.

And considering that the SAMSUNG 226BW was my choice and it’s a TN
6- does this really mean that it has crappy colors and viewing angles?
7- they mentioned that it’s viewing angles are 160°(H) / 160°(V), and though I don’t really know about this viewing angles but isn’t 160=180-20 ok? Or it’s like manufacturer’s measures the viewing angles as they like so there is no specific standard for this thing?

you can't really rely on quoted specs for these things sadly. In pratice, there is a noticeable contrast shift on TN Film panels as you move away from a central field of view. This is particularly apparent vertically, and is off-putting to some users. VA and IPS matrices are much wider in this regard. Having said that, many people find TN Film perfectly adequate anyway. If you're using the screen on your own and from head on, you prob wont see any issue here at all. If you're worried, you'd have to look for a VA/IPS based model.

8- how do we technically know that the colors are crappy? I mean the 245BW for example has: Pixel Pitch 0.27mm, Display Colors 16.7 Million, Brightness 400 cd/m2 , Contrast Ratio 1000:1 (DC 3000:1), which one tells most if the colors are crappy or not? And since it might have relatively low number, what’s the ok number?

none of the specs will tell you how good colour accuracy is really. You need to consider three things when it comes to colours really. Most people assume TN Film = crappy colours, mostly because of the fact the panel can only truly offer a 6-bit colour depth. Dithering and FRC technologies are used to boost the colour palette, and in reality, they do a very good job. VA and IPS panels are invariably 8-bit colour depth. Don't let this worry you though, in practice, you'd be very hard pressed to see much, if any, real difference between colour depth between any of these.

The second thing to consider is colour accuracy. This will vary from one model to another, and really depends on how well set up the screen si from the factory. Some models come set up very brightly, with vibrant and cartoony colours. These may look attractive, but REAL colour accuracy will be poor, and not suitable for any colour critical work. Factory settings will vary greatly from one model to another. If you look at review sites, they will often measure colour accuracy "out of the box" as an indication of what you can expect to see.

Thirdly, colour accuracy with proper calibration needs to be considered. All these technologies are perfectly capable of offering some very good colour rendering when it comes down to it, and with proper calibration you can get excellent results, even out of TN Film models. It's a common assumption that TN Film = poor colour accuracy. If you look at models like the Samsung 245B, this is actually capable of good accuracy after colour calibration.

Viewing angles come into play a bit here too, since for any colour critcal work, TN Film's obvious contrast shift is a problem, as is VA technologies off-centre contrast anomaly you will see referenced in forums and in some reviews.

9 - Dammit this is confusing, so are response time and input lag (input delay) different things? <-- this is question 9

yes., they are. Again, see here: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/features.htm

10- is this:ASUS PG221 better than the SAMSUNG 226BW? Regardless the price? Is it better cuz it’s a TFT LCD? Is it TN/IPS/MVA or what? 226BW is not a TFT LCD?

TFT and LCD are pretty much the same thing, just different nomanclature. Both those models are TN Film based (you can use panel search tool here if in doubt!). Both are very similar really in terms of performance, both being TN Film and offering similar specs. Design, features and price would be deciding factor here really.

11- if we supposed that the 226BW did have a crappy colors, could it be cuz it has a 700:1(DC 3000:1) as a Contrast Ratio and the ASUS PG221 for example has Contrast Ratio 2000:1?

don't get contrast ratio numbers confused here Anything quoted above 1000:1 is pretty much always a dynamic contrast ratio, based on control of the backlight level automatically as content on the screen changes. In practice, this is useful sometimes in movies, but rarely in other applications. Having dynamic numbers really skews specs! Both those screens will have very similiar real static contrast ratios. However, this only really tells us the difference between the brightest white and darkest black. A good indication of how black depth will be (important for gaming etc). Nowadays, contrast ratios are more than sufficient to avoid colour washout or anything like that.

12- if my feeling that the ASUS PG221 has no cons was true, can I find some SAMSUNG out there that can match it?

What about the Samsung SM2232BW or SM226Bw. What are their cons in your mind?

13- I tried to answer the previous question through searching for some TFT LCD SAMSUNG, and kept finding this SyncMaster thing in the monitors name! so does SyncMaster means that it’s a TFT LCD SAMSUNG monitor?

SyncMaster is just a name for one of their monitor ranges. Again, all these models are TFT's and all are LCD's. "LCD stands for Liquid Crystal Display and TFT stands for Thin Film Transistor. These two terms are used commonly but refer to the same technology. Often the TFT terminology is used more when describing desktop displays, whereas LCD is more commonly used when describing TV sets."

14- is the TFT LCD an advanced version from the normal LCD? Is it S-IPS based monitor?

no, not at all.

15- I thought that if I wanted to raise myself above the controversy (don’t know how it came) I should go for some IPS 22” one but seems that all 22” are TN (though things like the SPVA 22” lenovo l220x) and as you can see I’m creating other paths like the ASUS PG221 and the TFT LCD thing, can someone leed me to some good path please?

yeah, all are TN Film right now, with a colour of VA versions on their way soon. If you want non-TN Film, consider a 24" model perhaps?

16- found this now, so is it an advanced version from the SAMSUNG 226BW ? Notice that it’s 3000:1 Contrast Ratio, 1680 x 1050 Resolution but the viewing angles are 160 instead of 180

TN Film panels will nearly always be quoted as 160/160 or sometimes 170/170. In practice, it wont offer anything like that kind of good viewing angles.


hth

 

[Neuffy]

Whoa...

Great questions, firas.
Great answers, Badd.

I, uh, don't really have anything to add other than that the best thing you can do in terms of selecting a monitor is to try it out. Go to a box store like BestBuy, pick up a monitor (making sure they have a 14-day return-for-any-reason period) and try it out.

In general, TN is the cheapest - and due to low input delay (lag) is ideal for gaming.
VA panels provide better color reproduction and viewing angles than TN, but suffer from some input delay.
IPS panels provide (usually) low input delay, great viewing angles and wonderful color reproduction, but have high costs.

I went with an MVA panel (24" Westinghouse: L2410NM) because it wasn't much pricier than the Samsung 226BW, gave me 8-bit instead of 6-bit color, better viewing angles, 2 more inches, 1680X1050--->1920X1200 resolution upgrade, and I don't mind the ~32ms (2 frames delay out of 60/second) input delay.

 

[firas]

Thnx a lot for the great answers, sorry for the late response but I wanted to make some additional research

No, not at all. If you play at a lower resolution, the screen will interpolate the image up to fill the whole screen. The quality will be reduced a little, but on modern screens, this interpolation technique tends to be of high quality. For gaming, you should be fine. Not meaning to complicate things, but you may also want to consider whether the screen you buy has aspect ratio control or 1:1 pixel mapping. The Samsung 245B doesn't have this at a hardware level, which would mean any 4:3 or 5:4 aspect games would be stretched (unless you limit it at a software level)

That’s good to know and I found out that gamers shouldn’t really worry about scaling the image (like you said), I don’t really care about 4:3 aspect games since most of the new games now that I could care about support wide screens, but did you mean that scaling the image through interpolate would affect the performance but using the 1:1 pixel mapping feature will maintain the same performance (by scaling I mean playing a wide screen based game on a wide screen LCD but on a resolution lower than the native)

you can't really rely on quoted specs for these things sadly. In pratice, there is a noticeable contrast shift on TN Film panels as you move away from a central field of view. This is particularly apparent vertically, and is off-putting to some users. VA and IPS matrices are much wider in this regard. Having said that, many people find TN Film perfectly adequate anyway. If you're using the screen on your own and from head on, you prob wont see any issue here at all. If you're worried, you'd have to look for a VA/IPS based model.

Well…. Though it’s colors should be technically lower than other types I’ll admit that they are good enough since many users who bought this screen said nice stuff about the colors, but the viewing angles is the main issue here… it annoyed me and still do when working on a Laptop.

If you look at models like the Samsung 245B, this is actually capable of good accuracy after colour calibration

Can we say the same about the 226BW?

yes., they are. Again, see here: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/features.htm

Though I heard a lot of people complaining about this (actually I can’t tell if they mint this or the response time) I don’t wanna bother myself a lot with it since as mentioned in tftcenteral no one seems to really care about this
btw, so the slow response time is responsible for the ghosty stuff? and the input lag is responsible for the … let me describe it like this: when you aim at some ones head in CS:S and click the left mouse bottom to shoot him, he would move little far from his actual location when you clicked the mouse bottom?

TFT and LCD are pretty much the same thing, just different nomanclature. Both those models are TN Film based (you can use panel search tool here if in doubt!). Both are very similar really in terms of performance, both being TN Film and offering similar specs. Design, features and price would be deciding factor here really.

Though this site said some good stuff about the Asus PG221 22, it said better stuff about the Samsung SyncMaster 226BW and gave it some golden thing (though they were talking about the SyncMaster one wich I think is not this
And they gave the Samsung SyncMaster 215TW a silver prize and thou it’s a S-PVA I’m not sure which is more important the extra 1 inch or the viewing angles! Not to mention that I already compromised 2 inches (24 to 22)

The Asus looks sexy and from space age but I don’t think this worths the extra money, not to mention this:

The PG221's panel may be a little better than that of the £222 Elite-listed Samsung SyncMaster 226BW, but it still manages to be a less tempting purchase. The glossy coating, and therefore the improved contrast and vibrancy, along with a strong backlight and better colour handling give it the edge - and then all the silly gimmicks detract from these qualities. The tacked-on 2.1 speaker system is too weak for watching a film or listening to music, while the touch-sensitive buttons are annoying and distracting. Add in the PG221's far higher price, and the Samsung remains our favourite widescreen TFT.
from here

SyncMaster is just a name for one of their monitor ranges. Again, all these models are TFT's and all are LCD's. "LCD stands for Liquid Crystal Display and TFT stands for Thin Film Transistor. These two terms are used commonly but refer to the same technology. Often the TFT terminology is used more when describing desktop displays, whereas LCD is more commonly used when describing TV sets."

So do you this the SyncMaster model from the 226BW is like a better model? (note that it’s not much more expensive and note that I think both of them are the same one and if I want to be picky I should look for the S version or something)

yeah, all are TN Film right now, with a color of VA versions on their way soon. If you want non-TN Film, consider a 24" model perhaps?

I guess this is the only remaining issue now… go for the 226BW or if wanted better viewing angles I should look for some PVA/S- PVA 24 one, I’m confused now, the 245BW is a 24 and TN, why people didn’t look for other type since they are already in the 24 area? Did they choose it for the response time and didn’t care about the angles?
and why hy can’t I really find the 24 Samsung S-PVA models mentioned here?

Any openions about this?
http://www.zalman.co.kr/eng/product/view.asp?idx=331&code=032

thnx alot

 

[Drags]

That&#8217;s good to know and I found out that gamers shouldn&#8217;t really worry about scaling the image (like you said), I don&#8217;t really care about 4:3 aspect games since most of the new games now that I could care about support wide screens, but did you mean that scaling the image through interpolate would affect the performance but using the 1:1 pixel mapping feature will maintain the same performance (by scaling I mean playing a wide screen based game on a wide screen LCD but on a resolution lower than the native)

If you play at a lower resolution than the full native res, then it will be easier on the graphics card to handle. It won't matter whether you let the screen scale to fill the screen, or use 1:1 pixel mapping

Can we say the same about the 226BW?

yes, they are pretty good really. See calibrated results here:

http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=36&mo1=224&p1=2104&ma2=38&mo2=262&p2=2495&ph=1

Though I heard a lot of people complaining about this (actually I can&#8217;t tell if they mint this or the response time) I don&#8217;t wanna bother myself a lot with it since as mentioned in tftcenteral no one seems to really care about this
btw, so the slow response time is responsible for the ghosty stuff? and the input lag is responsible for the &#8230; let me describe it like this: when you aim at some ones head in CS:S and click the left mouse bottom to shoot him, he would move little far from his actual location when you clicked the mouse bottom?

yes, in theory. but the lag is often so minute, that you would never notice it. Pro gamers might see a difference, but many people would not.

So do you this the SyncMaster model from the 226BW is like a better model? (note that it&#8217;s not much more expensive and note that I think both of them are the same one and if I want to be picky I should look for the S version or something)

not sure I follow you there? SyncMaster is the name for their range, so the 226BW is actually called the "SyncMaster 226BW" or "SM226BW" for short. The whole panel lottery thing is another case really, but yes, many people consider the "S version" to be superior, if for not other reason that default colours are more accurate. see here for more info

I guess this is the only remaining issue now&#8230; go for the 226BW or if wanted better viewing angles I should look for some PVA/S- PVA 24 one, I&#8217;m confused now, the 245BW is a 24 and TN, why people didn&#8217;t look for other type since they are already in the 24 area? Did they choose it for the response time and didn&#8217;t care about the angles?
and why hy can&#8217;t I really find the 24 Samsung S-PVA models mentioned here?

I think the reason people went for the SM245B is that is a cost effective solution really. It's a Samsung screen so build quality, design, and support are consisered good, but is a cheaper screen than most of the big S-PVA models around. The Samsung S-PVA panels you link to there are just the actual panel modules which are used in different screens. If you want a 24" screen which is S-PVA based, you could consider the Dell 2407WFP, Samsung SM245T, Dell 2407WFP-HC etc.


not seen much / anything about that Zalman screen tbh, it's certainly TN Film though

 

[mle]

The HP w2207 does have 1:1 incase you were interested. I tested this in crysis and yes, you can actually do 1024 resolution on this 22" and you'll get huge black borders but the image is centered on the screen without stretching.

When it comes down to it, you probably wouldnt be happy with black borders anyways. It just doesnt look right.