Some Noob WCing Questions

[EnderW]

I'd like to get watercooling for my next system.

DFI 875P-T
Intel 3.4 LGA 775

I want to OC the CPU to over 4GHz, but I had some questions about what would be needed to handle the heat of the Prescott.

I'm looking at DangerDen stuff because it seems really nice.

1) on the BIX 120mm radiaters, do you think I would need a single or a double? what if I want to cool the chipset also?

2) what difference would using a T-line instead of a reservoir have on my temps, and other things?

3) what kinda of airflow do I need for the radiator fans? I want something quiet, like the 120mm Nexus fans, but they only push 37CFM, is that enough?

4) is the DD 12v pump anygood? I want something quiet, NO LEAKS, and with enough power to handle the job

Thanks

 

[Lord of Shadows]

The bigger the radiator the better, but a single 120mm will handle it. Dont buy a chipset block you dont need it.

Reservoirs make it easier to fill / bleed the system and hold more water. More water in the loop will increase the time it takes to reach a thermal equilibrium.

They should be fine, if its not enough you will notice your temps slowly but continuously rising.

I dont think anyone wants a pump that leaks, but as for power the dd12v will have it. But ive heard that they can be loud, but I cant answer that first hand.

 

[EnderW]

Thanks for the quick reply. I was hoping one would be enough.
What do you think about the airflow needed on the radiator fans?

 

[Erasmus354]

1) A single should work ok if all you are cooling is the processor, you will of course see better results with a double though. If you have the room for it I would strongly advise getting a double heatercore with a shroud (not the double BIX).

2) A T-line takes up less space than a resevoir, that is its only benefit. A T-line will add some restriction to the loop and it will be harder to fill/bleed the kit (if not harder it will definitly take longer). A resevoir makes filling a lot easier, but will not offer any real performance benefits.

3) I think you should be alright with those fans, it all depends upon what your ambient temperature is in the room, if you dont like your temps with the low cfm fans you can always get some beefier ones.

4) The DD12V pump is a very strong pump, it will handle anything you are planning on getting. It is however notoriously loud, if not loud than annoying high pitched whining sounds. You would probably enjoy the mcp600 / AQX-50Z- Aqua Xtreme pump much more. It has very similar performance characteristics to the DD12V (Laing D4) but it is very quiet.

 

[EnderW]

1) A single should work ok if all you are cooling is the processor, you will of course see better results with a double though. If you have the room for it I would strongly advise getting a double heatercore with a shroud (not the double BIX).

Are you referring to this ? Why is this better then the dual BIX? And the shroud is just to hold the fans, right?

4) The DD12V pump is a very strong pump, it will handle anything you are planning on getting. It is however notoriously loud, if not loud than annoying high pitched whining sounds. You would probably enjoy the mcp600 / AQX-50Z- Aqua Xtreme pump much more. It has very similar performance characteristics to the DD12V (Laing D4) but it is very quiet.

Oooh, that sounds like something I wouldn't like at all. I googled the 2 pumps you suggested, but the mcp600 seems to be discontinued (newer model?) and there isn't a lot of info on the AQX-50Z.

 

[Absentee]

the mcp600 is discontinued due to swiftech releasing the mcp650...which is the EXACT same pump as the DD pump but with a swiftech label....

either one of the pumps he suggested will do just fine

 

[Sideroxylon]

You can find the AQX-50Z here . That's where I bought mine. I had the DD D4 pump and returned it because it was so loud. The AQX is nearly silent and performs almost as good as the D4. You'll be very happy with it.

A shroud helps pull more air through the radiator. If you make sure you seal your shroud to your rad then your fan can only pull air through the rad. It also helps eliminate the 'dead spot' in the middle of the fan. The further from the rad the fans are mounted, the smaller the dead spot gets and allows more air to be pulled over that area of the rad.

 

[EnderW]

hey anyone know what this blue thing is?
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/racerx/water/bixradboxfans.jpg

 

[DryFire]

for a quiet pump the laing ddc (or mcp 350 or danger den DDC) is pretty much the best not to mention it's very high pressure head.

I would not get a chipset block.

the blue thing there is a radbox from swiftech.

 

[EnderW]

fI would not get a chipset block.

I was leaning away from it as well, but I've heard the NB can get hot when OCing and I plan on having really low speed, quiet 80mm case fans, so I won't have a lot of airflow going through my case and the stock cooler on that board is only passive.

the blue thing there is a radbox from swiftech.

what does it do?

 

[Sideroxylon]

what does it do?

Normally they're used to externally mount a rad and fan. I'm not quite sure what they're using it for in that picture.

 

[Erasmus354]

The mcp600 was discontinued by Swiftech due to supply line and pump failure issues. It is now sold as the Aqua Xtreme AQX-50Z. The AQX is a new revision of the pump which solved the failure problems of the original revision. I only mentioned it as the mcp600 because that is how many people still refer to it.

Since you are using a 1/2" loop you would see better performance with the AQX over the Laing DDC. If you were to perform the mod on the DDC to get the increased flow, then it would be pretty even. However, both pumps are virtually silent and would be good choices.

As for heatercore vs BIX. Heatercores are not only cheaper, they usually perform better as well. The advantage of a shroud is not so much to make sure the fan sucks air through the rad (it will usually do that anyways unless you are a moron in setting up your fans) but it is to eliminate the deadspot in the middle of the fans, thus increasing the effective surface area of the rad and vastly improving performance.

 

[EnderW]

The mcp600 was discontinued by Swiftech due to supply line and pump failure issues. It is now sold as the Aqua Xtreme AQX-50Z. The AQX is a new revision of the pump which solved the failure problems of the original revision. I only mentioned it as the mcp600 because that is how many people still refer to it.

Since you are using a 1/2" loop you would see better performance with the AQX over the Laing DDC. If you were to perform the mod on the DDC to get the increased flow, then it would be pretty even. However, both pumps are virtually silent and would be good choices.

So you say the Laing DDC is quiet? Others have said it's loud.
I could stand a little noise, if it means greater reliability. This is my first WC system and the LAST thing I want is something breaking on me.

As for heatercore vs BIX. Heatercores are not only cheaper, they usually perform better as well. The advantage of a shroud is not so much to make sure the fan sucks air through the rad (it will usually do that anyways unless you are a moron in setting up your fans) but it is to eliminate the deadspot in the middle of the fans, thus increasing the effective surface area of the rad and vastly improving performance.

Then what's the purpose in getting a BIX? I mean they look nicer, but I was planning on putting it in the "roof" of my case, so it's not like anyone would see it.

 

[Erasmus354]

The Laing DDC and the Laing D4 are not the same pump
Laing DDC
Laing D4

As for reliability, the DDC is too new to know of any problems, but I have never heard of any problems with either of the pumps (other than complaints that the D4 can be loud)

Heatercores require modification if you buy them from an autoparts store, you need to braze on fittings and such, where as the BIX radiators are all ready for watercooling. However most heatercores you buy online from places like DD have already been premodded for you, so the advantage of a BIX? It will provide similar, if a little worse, cooling and look a lil nicer, thats about all.

 

[EnderW]

The Laing DDC and the Laing D4 are not the same pump
Laing DDC
Laing D4

As for reliability, the DDC is too new to know of any problems, but I have never heard of any problems with either of the pumps (other than complaints that the D4 can be loud)

Ahh, but looks like it doesn't support 1/2" tubing
I've heard good things about the Eheim 1250, have an opinion?

Heatercores require modification if you buy them from an autoparts store, you need to braze on fittings and such, where as the BIX radiators are all ready for watercooling. However most heatercores you buy online from places like DD have already been premodded for you, so the advantage of a BIX? It will provide similar, if a little worse, cooling and look a lil nicer, thats about all.

Hmm. Cheaper, but the BIX do seem to be a more "polished" product. Maybe I can find one used.

 

[Lord of Shadows]

Thanks for the quick reply. I was hoping one would be enough.
What do you think about the airflow needed on the radiator fans?

Well thats a tricky question to answer without a doubt (fan ratings arent reliable, thermodynamics of radiator), but most likely yes. If your really worried about it buy a cheap rheostat and control your fans with that.

 

[plywood99]

If you are thinking of using Eheim, the 1048 would probably serve you better than the 1250. In the forums at Procooling.com there is an excellent thread about pros and cons of different pumps.

But as was mentioned earlier, the Aqua computer pump would probably serve you best.

 

[darkisz]

I had a lot of these same questions as I was setting up my WC'ing last month. I ended up spending a few weeks doing more studying on rads, pumps, blocks, ect. than I ever did when I was in school. My main reason for WC'ing was to keep the noise down, but I wanted performance on par with the xp90 that I was using. Here's a few things that might help ya.

I ended up getting the AQX50 pump, and it really delivers. It performs nicely and is pretty darn quiet (about the same as your standard 80mm case fan).

For the radiator, I went with a BIPro2. A number of discussions I read helped me realize that the thicker the radiator, the more powerful fan you need on it. The BIPro series are 1" thick instead of 2" like most other rads and HC's, which (in theory) means you can use a less powerful (and quieter) fan on them. I added 2 Yate Loon 120mm (same as Nexus) fans and have been very happy with the very low noise levels and the overall performance of my setup. Temps are down 3-5 degrees versus my old air setup, and the noise is significantly down.

I went with a T-line instead of a res, and even though it was my first time touching w/c components. Since most people say res's make filling and bleeding easier, I was surprised how easy it was to fill the T-line.

 

[Erasmus354]

If you are thinking of using Eheim, the 1048 would probably serve you better than the 1250. In the forums at Procooling.com there is an excellent thread about pros and cons of different pumps.

But as was mentioned earlier, the Aqua computer pump would probably serve you best.

The aqua computer pump is an overpriced pos, well it isn't really a pos but it is sure as hell overpriced. They are charging you over 100$ for an eheim 1048 which you could get for about 1/3 of the price. The only difference is the aqua computer has been converted to be a 12v DC pump.

Also, the 1250 is a very good pump, and is a better performer than the 1048.

 

[plywood99]

The aqua computer pump is an overpriced pos, well it isn't really a pos but it is sure as hell overpriced. They are charging you over 100$ for an eheim 1048 which you could get for about 1/3 of the price. The only difference is the aqua computer has been converted to be a 12v DC pump.

Also, the 1250 is a very good pump, and is a better performer than the 1048.

Let me clarify, I meant the Aquaxtreme mentioned in this thread, which you yourself said is a revised mcp600.

Cathar did some excellent research on pumps here: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10825&page=1&pp=25

Note a quote concerning 1048 and 1250 :

"Of interest is the relative closeness of the Eheim 1048 and the Eheim 1250. If instead we chose a single 120mm radiator the difference between the two drops to 0.2C, or next to nothing, and so the Eheim 1048 would have to get the choice every time out of the Eheims, but the MCP600 still would be the first preference if its small amount of extra noise is not an issue."

 

[EnderW]

Let me clarify, I meant the Aquaxtreme mentioned in this thread, which you yourself said is a revised mcp600.

Cathar did some excellent research on pumps here: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10825&page=1&pp=25

Note a quote concerning 1048 and 1250 :

"Of interest is the relative closeness of the Eheim 1048 and the Eheim 1250. If instead we chose a single 120mm radiator the difference between the two drops to 0.2C, or next to nothing, and so the Eheim 1048 would have to get the choice every time out of the Eheims, but the MCP600 still would be the first preference if its small amount of extra noise is not an issue."

Wow, great thread there. A couple of questions:

1) I see these guys talking about running the pumps at 13.8v - how would you accomplish this? Do I need a seperate PSU?

2) Still can't decide on a radiater, any good comparisons on them?

 

[plywood99]

1) Yes, to run your pump @ 13.8 you would need either a separate power supply, or a bump up circuit on the 12 volt line of your power supply.

2) Most of the rads based off heatercores will more than suffice for your setup, as was mentioned before in this thread. A couple of the guys on this forum sell modded cores. I think there names are Weapon and 2Fresh, although my spelling may be off.

 

[EnderW]

1) Yes, to run your pump @ 13.8 you would need either a separate power supply, or a bump up circuit on the 12 volt line of your power supply.

So this bump up circuit, can you go into more detail on exactly how this works? Does it affect the entire PSU or does it just go between the PSU and pump? Is it bad for the PSU?

 

[plywood99]

Not to good on the details about it. But it would go between the molex connector from your psu and the connector from your pump. Haven't a clue how to go about building it or whether it would be cost effective.

I have seen 13.8 power supplies for under $20 bucks. Might have been in that same thread I mentioned earlier..

 

[TehQuick]

bumping up volts will make pumps louder... on the flipside, u can also undervolt pumps using fan rheobus and make them silent, even the infamous D4 Ppl who do that with D4 and MCP600 report no difference in temp when undervolting.

 

[Punx_Clever]

a "bump up" circuit would be made of a transformer, or at lest thats the simplest way I can think of it.

But it would be much easier to buy one of these:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.a...name=CTLG_009_001_002_004&product_id=273-1827
and do some simple modifications instead of trying to build your own. But then again, the $60 price tag is kinda nasty.... if you could find something cheaper to do the same, then it would be awesome.

 

[EnderW]

I'm thinking of going with a simple setup, cooling only the CPU right now. If I want to add the chipset (everyone has told me it's a waste) or video card (NV6800 block = $100 ) I can later.

I still haven't decided on a pump, but it will probably be the mcp600 or D4. I will also probably go with the dual BIX, because I think I've found a good deal on a used one, and it will fit my case perfectly.

I'm looking at the Yate Loon fans which are supposed to be quiet, but only push 47CFM, hopefully 2 of these will be enough.

And I've got a couple more questions:

1) When you have everything installed, can you see the water flowing through the tubes?

2) Is there anything special you have to do when turning your system off/on?

bumping up volts will make pumps louder... on the flipside, u can also undervolt pumps using fan rheobus and make them silent, even the infamous D4 Ppl who do that with D4 and MCP600 report no difference in temp when undervolting.

and how would I go about doing that?

 

[Captin Insano]

If your going to go with The BIX or a heater core I would Highly recomend fans thathave about 80cfm each at the minimum to be able to push the air thru them. The BIX and heatercores or even the Thermochill like I run need fans with better static pressure and higher cfm. I run a triple 120mm rad with 3 HP Delta 3 Blade fans and a adjustable fan set up i made. At the lowest speed they are the equevilent of noise as any other 120mm fan around but push tons more air then any of the others even at those speeds. Now when I OC its a different story. I crank them up and yes they make some noise. But each one is capable of 148 cfm max flow. Now I run the Danger Den D4 pump and I can tell you that mines silent. Not a peep. Alot has to do with the amount of restriction that is placed on the D4.People with higher restictive systems(like smaller then 1/2 inch lines restrictive rads or blocks and long runs of tubbing and bends or a combination of the few) As far as performance it rocks. I have no complaints.Yes you can see the water. It looks good with uv lights and UV dye.The nice thing about 12v pumps is that they hook into the power supply and when you hit the button It turns on and when you shut the machine down it shuts off. I would also recomend Larger radiator to start. Can never be to big. Its the one main thing that will make all the difference in an H2O system. The dual is a good size. You can set up fans in push/pull for more air movement. I have a resivevour and I got it solely based for looks and the abillity to bleed the air easier. Takes me only an hour to bleed it. After a fill or water change. Just because a resivour adds more water it DOES NOT add performance. Chipsets do not need cooling. Air or passive is good enough. Every thing I have done with my water cooling system( got from Danger Den, cept' for the res) has managed to help me get my FX55 to right at 3 to 3.1 ghz. (phase coming soon...) Plenty of people here have lots of great Ideas and Looks like your asking all the right questions to. Good luck...


The Cpt.

 

[bubblethumper]

Only thing I have to add to this conversation is about overvolting the pump to 13+volts:

Upping the voltage (even if within specs) will shorten the mean time between failure. I don't think it's worth the hassle and decrease in reliability.

 

[EnderW]

If your going to go with The BIX or a heater core I would Highly recomend fans thathave about 80cfm each at the minimum to be able to push the air thru them. The BIX and heatercores or even the Thermochill like I run need fans with better static pressure and higher cfm. I run a triple 120mm rad with 3 HP Delta 3 Blade fans and a adjustable fan set up i made. At the lowest speed they are the equevilent of noise as any other 120mm fan around but push tons more air then any of the others even at those speeds. Now when I OC its a different story. I crank them up and yes they make some noise. But each one is capable of 148 cfm max flow. Now I run the Danger Den D4 pump and I can tell you that mines silent. Not a peep. Alot has to do with the amount of restriction that is placed on the D4.People with higher restictive systems(like smaller then 1/2 inch lines restrictive rads or blocks and long runs of tubbing and bends or a combination of the few) As far as performance it rocks. I have no complaints.Yes you can see the water. It looks good with uv lights and UV dye.The nice thing about 12v pumps is that they hook into the power supply and when you hit the button It turns on and when you shut the machine down it shuts off. I would also recomend Larger radiator to start. Can never be to big. Its the one main thing that will make all the difference in an H2O system. The dual is a good size. You can set up fans in push/pull for more air movement. I have a resivevour and I got it solely based for looks and the abillity to bleed the air easier. Takes me only an hour to bleed it. After a fill or water change. Just because a resivour adds more water it DOES NOT add performance. Chipsets do not need cooling. Air or passive is good enough. Every thing I have done with my water cooling system( got from Danger Den, cept' for the res) has managed to help me get my FX55 to right at 3 to 3.1 ghz. (phase coming soon...) Plenty of people here have lots of great Ideas and Looks like your asking all the right questions to. Good luck...


The Cpt.

Hey what pump are you using?

 

[Erasmus354]

he said in that huge block of text (carriage returns are you friend cpt. ) that he was using the Laing D4 (aka mcp650 or DD-12V)

 

[EnderW]

he said in that huge block of text (carriage returns are you friend cpt. ) that he was using the Laing D4 (aka mcp650 or DD-12V)

ahh, I read that too, just forgot I guess

thanks


I'm thinking of getting it too, and using a rheobus to lower the voltage down a bit to make it quieter

 

[EnderW]

OK, I think I've decided.

CPU Style: Intel 775
CPU Water Block: Danger Den TDX
Top Style: Lucite - Clear
Fitting Size: 1/2 OD Fitting for 1/2 ID Tubing
Radiator: Black Ice Xtreme - Black
Pumps: Danger Den 12V D4
Tubing: 7 Feet of Tygon
Reservoir: Dual Floppy Bay Reservoir
Water Additives: 4oz Zerex Super Coolant
Hold Down Style: Standard Stainless Steel Hold Down
Danger Den Fillport: Black Anodized Fillport
Misc: 12 Hose Clamps


Will use it to cool an Intel P4 3.6GHz, hopefully overclocked to around 4.2 or so. Not cooling the chipset or the videocard (NV Silencer). Only have room for a single 120mm radiator - need suggestions on a quiet fan that will push enough air to get the job done.

Also, this is my first WCing setup so I've got a couple more questions, mostly about the radiator.

1) Really dumb, I'm sure, but the fans should pull air from the outside of the case in across the radiator, right?
2) What about using 2 fans with say 40CFM rating in a push-pull config with the radiator in the middle, instead of a single fan with a 80CFM rating?
3) I think this reservior looks kinda cool also, but what does it mean about fan brackets, why would you put those on it?
http://www.dangerdenstore.com/product.php?productid=55&cat=28&page=1


I'll probably think of some more questions later. If you have any tips for a newcomer to WCing (common mistakes, things to watch for, etc) please let me know.

 

[Epicenter]

Don't get a P4, get an Athlon 64 3200+ or 3500+. Same and often better performance in almost all tasks, 1/4th the heat output. You can run it with far smaller radiators and quieter fans, and overclocked it will destroy a Prescott. An A64 overclocked by 1 GHz can still run well on ONE 80mm radiator!

Socket 939 will also have a longer upgrade path than LGA775 and you can use SLI down the line if you are so inclined, to run 2 graphics cards in tandem.

This will be frowned upon because it's a kit but the Thermaltake BigWater is only about $120 USD and comes with a quick near-silent pump submerged in a reservoir with LED lighting, 120mm radiator, quality copper waterblock with lucite top and LED lighting, and UV hoses, coolant and awesome leakproof compression fittings. It'd cool the aforementioned 3200+, even OC'ed from 2.0 to 3.0 GHz to rather low temps. It can handle a Prescott too but you will need to run fast, probably noisy, fans.

 

[EnderW]

Don't get a P4, get an Athlon 64 3200+ or 3500+. Same and often better performance in almost all tasks, 1/4th the heat output. You can run it with far smaller radiators and quieter fans, and overclocked it will destroy a Prescott. An A64 overclocked by 1 GHz can still run well on ONE 80mm radiator!

Socket 939 will also have a longer upgrade path than LGA775 and you can use SLI down the line if you are so inclined, to run 2 graphics cards in tandem.

This will be frowned upon because it's a kit but the Thermaltake BigWater is only about $120 USD and comes with a quick near-silent pump submerged in a reservoir with LED lighting, 120mm radiator, quality copper waterblock with lucite top and LED lighting, and UV hoses, coolant and awesome leakproof compression fittings. It'd cool the aforementioned 3200+, even OC'ed from 2.0 to 3.0 GHz to rather low temps. It can handle a Prescott too but you will need to run fast, probably noisy, fans.

Thanks for your input, but I already have the motherboard and CPU. I'm not sure what you mean by saying the A64 will "destroy" a 4GHz Prescott. From what I've seen, it has a significant advantage in gaming benchmarks, but is pretty even in other areas. Also, I don't want to give up HyperThreading. I may consider a A64 later when the dual core chips are out.

I do not want this to turn into an Intel VS AMD thread!! I only want suggestions on cooling

 

[Epicenter]

Overclocked a little bit, to about say, 2.5 GHz-- the A64 beats the Prescott at 3.4 GHz even! Overclocked to about 2.8, it dominates the Pentium 4 Prescott at 4.0 GHz in every area by a wide margin. Those are the facts, but if you don't want to discuss it that's cool. At any rate, I suggested it because you made it sound like you didn't get the parts yet-- and the A64 emits 35-45W of heat, while Prescotts emit 95-115W at stock. Overclocked by 1 GHz, the A64 emits around 55W, while Prescott emits around 130-140W. So .. from a cooling and overclocking standpoint, or for one who wants QUIET, I'd never recommend the Prescott.

 

[EnderW]

bump

 

[Epicenter]

That setup will cool a Prescott OC'ed to 4.0 GHz OK, but it will not give you amazing temperatures. You may need 2 120mm radiators to get very low temps, but if you are in spec, it doesn't really matter.

For a cool fan, Just get a 120mm one and run it at 9V or so and it will be quiet. Panaflo, iCute, Antec, often Titan, these are all quality fans with no major acoustic annoyances. One fan should be enough, push-pull configs don't usually drop temps much at all but do add noise. Just get a high-CFM rating fan, like 35 CFM - 50 CFM.

I don't know what fan brackets you mean about the reservoir. I assume it's an adapter to attach it to a 120mm fan port instead of an 80mm, et cetera.