Software Pirate Arraigned In U.S.

acidic said:
What you may not realize is that the more people that pirate the more publishers must invest in content protection and that raises cost for other consumers and raises incompatibility problems.

Companies makes predictions on perceived market returns and thus are willing to invest. However, pirating eats chunks out of the potential market, thus lowering the actual monetary return to investment. The publishers then either must adjust for lower investment since the scale of return diminished substantially, or must raise prices such that it covers the loss to pirating. Its a no win situation to society as a whole, because in the long run the industry must either increase prices for everyone or must put out lower quality goods to make a profit. Consumers end up with higher prices and lower quality goods because businesses will be more hesitant to risk money on an increasingly risky return.
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You'll have a tough time convincing anyone of that considering the major software companies already pull 80%+ profit margins.
 
mikeblas said:
Except, since the material was pirated, the box company isn't cardboarding, the shipping company isn't shipping, the disc manufacturer isn't pressing, and so on.

How much of the American GDP do you think is about IP and not material goods, even only directly?

I'd call "pennies" an order of magnitude away from "99 cents". But both numbers skip the multiplier. The damage done by uploading the file and redistributing it depends on the range of the redistribution, so there can be a very big multiplier.

It also enables others to download it and redistribute that copy. The action might cause further consequential damages, such as talent refusing to sign with a company that's not paying well because they're losing sales to pirates. It's funny that we worry so much about tax payer's money being wasted when the country spends such a small fraction of its budget on the courts; instead, why don't we worry about the victims in these cases need to spend so much money to hire lawyers to sue the pirates themselves?
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Indeed, something I forgot to touch on. When you pirate something there is a drain on the money velocity or exchange of money which is one of the basis for economic growth and activity. Pirating doesn't just hurt the perceived big publishers, they hurt their workers and everyone throughout the chain of production to get that package out to the consumer. The money spent isn't lost down some hole, but rather reinvested back into the economy by the company, and high investment leads to a higher steady state. And the workers that get salaries from your purchase is an important part toward economic health since they too have a purchasing power and their spending have a multiplier effect that ripple throughout the rest of the economy benefiting everyone else.
 
acidic said:
Indeed, something I forgot to touch on. When you pirate something there is a drain on the money velocity or exchange of money which is one of the basis for economic growth and activity. Pirating doesn't just hurt the perceived big publishers, they hurt their workers and everyone throughout the chain of production to get that package out to the consumer. The money spent isn't lost down some hole, but rather reinvested back into the economy by the company, and high investment leads to a higher steady state. And the workers that get salaries from your purchase is an important part toward economic health since they too have a purchasing power and their spending have a multiplier effect that ripple throughout the rest of the economy benefiting everyone else.
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Your theory is flawed. You assume that that $60 the person just "stole" from the company won't be spent somewhere else in the economy. I guess every time someone "steals" a game or a song, they just throw dollar bills in the fireplace.
 
Eickst said:
First off, thanks for the insult. It debases your position and shows your true lack of character. Secondly, no where in my statement did I claim that Robin Hood existed.

And on our way to anarchy? You obviously don't know the meaning of the word, which "explains your lack of intelligence on this subject." I suggest you look it up.
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Yes, I lack character. Cool, I won't argue with you on that, because that is not what this discussion is about. ;)

If you don't want your intelligence questioned, don't bring "Robin Hood" into this discussion, that's a fairy tale for small children, not real life.

I do know what anarchy is, you obviously don't. Although the theme song of thieves may be entitled "Laws Are Made To Be Broken", that's not the way it is. Actually, laws are made to be enforced.

Break the law, expect to be punished for it, suck it up.

Try to justify breaking the law with lame/bullshit excuses, expect to be called on it.

BTW, I'd look up anarchy, but I don't know how to spell dictionary.com, can you help me out here? ;)
 
Its all well and good that people are taking the moral high ground and pointing out that theft is illegal, and thus one should be punished. Now perhaps this is a realistic position to take, but im willing to bet that the same people who claim this, don't turn themselves in when they speed, or J walk. Its not quite as black and white as people make it out to be.

I'm not saying .... im just saying.
 
Draax said:
Its all well and good that people are taking the moral high ground and pointing out that theft is illegal, and thus one should be punished. Now perhaps this is a realistic position to take, but im willing to bet that the same people who claim this, don't turn themselves in when they speed, or J walk. Its not quite as black and white as people make it out to be.

I'm not saying .... im just saying.
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Dude, when I speed, I know I'm breaking the law, and I'll suck it up when I get busted for it, I always have. Man, I can remember at 18 years old cruising down the highway doing 85mph in my '65 Newport Custom, cresting a hill, and seeing a cop with the radar on his dash heading the other way. Looked in my rearview mirror, saw his brakelights come on. Hit the brakes and pulled over, I knew I was busted.

20 seconds later, he comes flying over the top of the hill, lights on, then sees me and slams on the brakes. Told me that because I pulled over(which surprised the hell out of him), he was only going to bust me for doing 65mph in a 50mph zone, so I wouldn't lose points off my license.

It's not about turning yourself in, it's about taking resposibility for your actions.

Don't try to justify theft, admit that it's morally and ethically wrong, then suck it up when you get busted.

I mean really! WTF?! :confused:
 
Eickst said:
Your theory is flawed. You assume that that $60 the person just "stole" from the company won't be spent somewhere else in the economy. I guess every time someone "steals" a game or a song, they just throw dollar bills in the fireplace.
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But you do forget that when someone pirates a software, the economy is drained of Money Velocity and investment, both of which are extremely important in the u.s economy. When the service sector employs 3 quarters of the labor force and a large chunk is in the Intellectual realm it becomes very apparent that a blow to the rights of media producers is going to have a ripple effect to the rest of the economy. Again the multiplier effect also works in reverse, when you have the producers of media whose rights to IP is being infringed and if the government takes no steps in rectifying the problem, then there would be a net loss to that industry and eventually leading to the loss of jobs. The workers' loss of income not only reduces their cache but also their propensity to consume, adding no multiplier effect towards the economy. Second they will be a net drain to the government because unemployment benefits must be paid during the duration of retraining and this is taken out of taxes which have a negative effect on everyone. Thirdly you have the problem of the loss of investment from companies into this sector thus slowing innovation and reducing GDP. As our process of development is being eroded due to the loss of investment, our comparative advantage in the world diminishes. This is an extremely detrimental effect to the economy of the u.s as a major sector of the economy becomes economically infeasible for entrepreneurs to invest and workers to work in.
 
Eickst said:
It's just a little fun bit of banter back and forth. And I never said I was better than him....(in fact I'm probably much worse)
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No offence taken on my part, just questioning the validity of the comment. Doesn't make sense when you admonish someone for tossing out an insult, then turn around and insult them in return.

That's what my mommy learned me. :D
 
acidic said:
But you do forget that when someone pirates a software, the economy is drained of Money Velocity and investment, both of which are extremely important in the u.s economy. When the service sector employs 3 quarters of the labor force and a large chunk is in the Intellectual realm it becomes very apparent that a blow to the rights of media producers is going to have a ripple effect to the rest of the economy. Again the multiplier effect also works in reverse, when you have the producers of media whose rights to IP is being infringed and if the government takes no steps in rectifying the problem, then there would be a net loss to that industry and eventually leading to the loss of jobs. The workers' loss of income not only reduces their cache but also their propensity to consume, adding no multiplier effect towards the economy. Second they will be a net drain to the government because unemployment benefits must be paid during the duration of retraining and this is taken out of taxes which have a negative effect on everyone. Thirdly you have the problem of the loss of investment from companies into this sector thus slowing innovation and reducing GDP. As our process of development is being eroded due to the loss of investment, our comparative advantage in the world diminishes. This is an extremely detrimental effect to the economy of the u.s as a major sector of the economy becomes economically infeasible for entrepreneurs to invest and workers to work in.
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I'm pretty sure the bulk of the "service" sector is shitty hotel and amusement park tourist type jobs.
 
Sidewalkcookie said:
No offence taken on my part, just questioning the validity of the comment. Doesn't make sense when you admonish someone for tossing out an insult, then turn around and insult them in return.

That's what my mommy learned me. :D
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That's funny. Your mommy taught me something else. That I am allergic to penicillin. SHA-ZAM!
 
Eickst said:
That's funny. Your mommy taught me something else. That I am allergic to penicillin. SHA-ZAM!
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You did my mom? You're one sick puppy, she was like 350 pounds, and 5 foot nothin. That's just disgusting!

Have you ever thought about therapy?
 
Eickst said:
More cushion for the pushin!
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Hahahahahahaha :D

That's damn funny, had a buddy up north who used to say that, "Three-finger-Doug"(blew two of fingers trying to commit suicide, he missed :p ), always went after the fatties, and that was his mantra. :p
 
Eickst said:
Yeah, MS "deserves" to make $10 billion a quarter because they pay coders $25k a year. I would feel bad about a company's "monetary and time" investment when the people who reap the most money at the company made neither of the two prerequisite investments.

Show me a software company whose CEO doesn't make more than 50 times the average salary of the company employee and I'll show you a company I'll do business with.

Until then, they can suck on my chocolate salty bit torrent tracker.
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And how do you think that person became the CEO? because if it wasnt for them, there would not be any company, why they earn more.

So a coder should be paid more then the person who puts the company in the direction, keeps it alive, makes all major decisions ? If that is the case go download shareware and send the developer the money, then when that person who coded the original software becomes a CEO of his own company and makes more, will you stop supporting them ?

the issue with software and the claims of the cost of piracy is NO ONE can prove how much money a company may have lost as there is NO proof the person would of bought the item in the first place..

what i 'would love to see is how many people have purchased an item they otherwise wouldnt have after downloading a copy?

i mean, music sales are up due to downloads, NOT down as the RIAA wants to think.

Piracy will never stop, period, so as some said, why not put resources into things that matter OH WAIT! the US would rather govern other countries then worry about their own, starving, homeless, jobless tax payers.
 
Spectre said:
Oh...and this isn't some kid who downloaded 20 tunes of the web. This is a guy who lead a group whose whole enterprise was widescale theft.
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then you know little about the real "scene" , piracy groups don't release software so they can get it on p2p and give it to every joe blow, any real group despises that crap, but things leak out, it is like many hacks, they do it cause they can and to prove they can do it and race against others.

Sure, you get the little 12 year old script kiddie type of people who want to be all 1337 and brag they released and made a purdy NFO about a game they got and think it will get them top site access, but they are the ones who have ruined the entire deal and made it what it was as opposed to the former underground when no one knew what an ISO was, or what warez was.
 
MrGuvernment said:
then you know little about the real "scene" , piracy groups don't release software so they can get it on p2p and give it to every joe blow, any real group despises that crap, but things leak out, it is like many hacks, they do it cause they can and to prove they can do it and race against others.

Sure, you get the little 12 year old script kiddie type of people who want to be all 1337 and brag they released and made a purdy NFO about a game they got and think it will get them top site access, but they are the ones who have ruined the entire deal and made it what it was as opposed to the former underground when no one knew what an ISO was, or what warez was.
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I don't think you quite understand what I said. Being the head of an organization that is stealing/cracking large numbers of various titles for whatever reason, whether you distribute them intentionally or not, is different from a kid who downloads an album of music from his favorite artist.
 
You're all a bunch of thieves then. Microsoft lost the patent case brought against it by Alcatel-Lucent. So everyone using Windows has been stealing from Lucent. link
 
BladeVenom said:
You're all a bunch of thieves then. Microsoft lost the patent case brought against it by Alcatel-Lucent. So everyone using Windows has been stealing from Lucent. link
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You are either stirring the pot or don't understand how the legal system works.
 
MrGuvernment said:
then you know little about the real "scene" , piracy groups don't release software so they can get it on p2p and give it to every joe blow, any real group despises that crap, but things leak out, it is like many hacks, they do it cause they can and to prove they can do it and race against others.

Sure, you get the little 12 year old script kiddie type of people who want to be all 1337 and brag they released and made a purdy NFO about a game they got and think it will get them top site access, but they are the ones who have ruined the entire deal and made it what it was as opposed to the former underground when no one knew what an ISO was, or what warez was.
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Oh, yeah, too bad some script kiddie(which has dick-all to do with warez) "ruined" it for all the "good" thieves out there. What? :confused:

You talk about knowledge of the "real scene" when you have no clue what you are talking about. Script kiddies are wannabe hackers, which has nothing to do with crackerz and warez.

BTW, Bandido did it to steal software and make money, just like every other thief out there, so don't try to extoll the virtures of some thief in here, it just don't fly, sunshine. :rolleyes:
 
BladeVenom said:
You're all a bunch of thieves then. Microsoft lost the patent case brought against it by Alcatel-Lucent. So everyone using Windows has been stealing from Lucent. link
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STFU moron. That has to be the most immature comment I've read in here yet. But, I'm sure you can do better(worse), I'm just all aquiver waiting for your next post. :rolleyes:
 
guy didnt do it in america, we have ZERO rights to arrest, prosecute, hell even call him dirty names, and people wonder why we are so villified throughout the world
 
Gapdragon said:
guy didnt do it in america, we have ZERO rights to arrest, prosecute, hell even call him dirty names, and people wonder why we are so villified throughout the world
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I'm Canadian, and in my circle of friends, we don't "vilify" Americans, we just don't agree with GB's actions throughout the world. I'm "only" 44, but in my lifetime, I've yet to see a Canadian "vilify" Americans. If any did, that was a personal opinion, and not one expressed by our nation.

Personally, I really have nothing but good things to say about any American I have met, be it here in Canada, or when I used to cross the border at Sault Ste. Marie when I was in college('84). Don Dee's bowling alley and the "Back Door" were two of my fave spots, party city, and we were always welcomed by the Americans, just as Americans were always welcomed in the Sault.

I was raised in northern Ontario, near Kirkland Lake, which is 400 miles north of Toronto Ontario. I started working at the local gas station at 14 years of age, Americans were ALWAYS the best tippers, not just the cash, but beer too, heh heh heh, first time I ever saw a "shortie" bottle of Miller. :cool:

I have a lot of American friends online, many of which I'll be meeting in person this September when the wife and I take the kids to Disney World, we'll be staying at their houses on the drive down. Haven't met them in person yet, but we've shared family pics/known each other(online) for years.

Not everyone vilifies Americans. I don't. My family doesn't. My neighbours don't.(Opps, next door neighbour is a transplanted American from New Jersey). My friends don't. In fact, no one that I personally know vilifies Americans.

This guy is a thief. America has the power to prosecute him. Do it, people with ethics, and morals, the world over, will not complain. Those that do complain lack the above mentioned qualities in a person/country/people.

Canada, and the US, are the two "free-est" countries on this planet, no matter how pissy our leaders may get with on another, we, the people, will always be brothers. And that rocks. :cool:
 
Flyingcrazy said:
I have a different outlook at than most. How anyone can say that software, or whatever that's downloaded off the Internet is causing companies to loose money is beyond me.

Call me naive, but if 99% of the stuff readily available via the Internet wasn't, who would go out and buy it? Just because music can be downloaded doesn't mean if it wasn't, that someone would run out and buy. It's a very broad statement to say that companies are loosing money over this. If the governments of the world want to put a stop to it, start with securing the Internet better... Yes is can be done...
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This is an incredibly naive point of view.

The fact that the software is so prevelant for download (on kazaa, et. al) is why I find pirated software on half my clients computers.

Right next to their bearshare, bittorrent, etc.. icons.

If it was simply, IMPOSSIBLE to pirate this software, music, videos, etc.. people would either 1) Do WITHOUT, like their supposed to if they can't afford it) or 2) Not be cheap thieving motherfuckers and actually buy the damn stuff.
 
Eickst said:
Yeah, MS "deserves" to make $10 billion a quarter because they pay coders $25k a year. I would feel bad about a company's "monetary and time" investment when the people who reap the most money at the company made neither of the two prerequisite investments.
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Your point is irrelevant and incorrect


1) Microsoft pays VERY well. I was offered TRIPLE to move from dell to Microsoft (but I actually turned it down)

2) Microsoft doesn't make $10billion a quarter off of one coder.
Try 20,000 coders.

3) Microsoft sells a LOT of product.


I can't believe people have no problem paying $4.95 for a cup of coffee at starbucks that cost all of 2 cents to make, and yet, microsoft who offers a viable product that actually serves a purpose, gets villianized.
 
Spectre said:
You are either stirring the pot or don't understand how the legal system works.
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You have Windows Media Player which has found in court to be in violation of Alcatel-Lucent patent. What's there to understand? You are clearly in violation. You think because you didn't write the software you're not liable? Just read the article, they aren't just suing Microsoft, they are also suing Microsoft's biggest customers.

You have it; it's in violation of the law. You are in violation of patent law. It couldn't be more clear.

Don't you remember the SCO case? They didn't just sue IBM, they also sued the biggest users of the software.

Microsoft made it a selling point that the end users could be sued for patent or copyright violation by promising they'd pay up for their customers who were in violation of patent and copyright law. Something which obviously can't be promised for mos Linux distros.
 
Sidewalkcookie said:
Oh, yeah, too bad some script kiddie(which has dick-all to do with warez) "ruined" it for all the "good" thieves out there. What? :confused:

You talk about knowledge of the "real scene" when you have no clue what you are talking about. Script kiddies are wannabe hackers, which has nothing to do with crackerz and warez.

BTW, Bandido did it to steal software and make money, just like every other thief out there, so don't try to extoll the virtures of some thief in here, it just don't fly, sunshine. :rolleyes:
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Sorry i came across harsh (really bad day)

warez is illegal, i agree, should be punished, i do know enough about it, plenty of reading and other things.

my comparison was more, script kiddies give hackers a bad name, everyone hears the word hacker and thinks some bad person wanting to destroy their computers, when many hackers don't want to cause harm, but only show weaknesses in systems and actually help, but like anything, you have your good and bad sides.

p2p and such made warez public basically, people who sell warez for profit are highly shunned upon in the "scene" as it is called, things arent what they were 10 years ago, now it is a bunch of 12 year olds who want to make a name for themselves and end up getting arrested.
 
MrGuvernment said:
Sorry i came across harsh (really bad day)

warez is illegal, i agree, should be punished, i do know enough about it, plenty of reading and other things.

my comparison was more, script kiddies give hackers a bad name, everyone hears the word hacker and thinks some bad person wanting to destroy their computers, when many hackers don't want to cause harm, but only show weaknesses in systems and actually help, but like anything, you have your good and bad sides.

p2p and such made warez public basically, people who sell warez for profit are highly shunned upon in the "scene" as it is called, things arent what they were 10 years ago, now it is a bunch of 12 year olds who want to make a name for themselves and end up getting arrested.
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Ach, apology accepted, and I offer my own in return, I wasn't being the most polite SOB on the net yesterday. :rolleyes:

I don't think script kiddies give hackers a bad name, hackers give themselves a bad name. Oh yeah, the arguement has been put forth that they merely expose weaknesses in security. Right, and how do they do that? By illegally hacking into a system.

Google up some hacker tools, they're all over the net. Why? Cause it's fun? I like to drive fast, but if I get busted driving over the speed limit, I'm busted, I broke the law, I knew what the law was, and I broke it.

As I said before, it doesn't matter who is to blame, in the end, we, the honest consumers, are the ones that lose out, cause we end up paying more for our games/software.

I have a problem with my tax dollars supporting some loser drug addict on welfare, they get money for free, and I pay for it.

I have a problem with paying big bucks for software, cause some loser decides he'll steal it rather than pay for it. He steals it, every honest consumer out there pays for HIS stolen software. That's just not right, I work hard for my money, why should I fund a criminal's game playing?

Game developers/writers/producers, they work hard for their money, why shouldn't they be compensated for it?

Earlier someone said that too many game developers keep tossing out crap, so why pay for it? Heh, people don't steal crap games, they steal good ones. People don't steal crap programs, they steal good ones. That arguement doesn't fly either. Anyhow, it all comes back to theft being illegal.

Doesn't matter what the scene was 10 years ago, it was still illegal 10 years ago. Doesn't matter why or who is stealing the games today, what matters is that stealing games/software is illegal.

Why are theft insurance premiums higher in places where cars are stolen more often? Cause more thieves are stealing cars. Hence, your insurance rate goes up, you pay more, because some loser is a thief. Insurance companies have to make up for their losses. More people steal software, the developers have to make up for those losses, and once again, honest consumers pay the price.

We have to bust these azzholes when we get the chance, I have a really big issue with supporting some thief. :mad:
 
Paul_Johnson said:
I don't think you quite understand what I said. Being the head of an organization that is stealing/cracking large numbers of various titles for whatever reason, whether you distribute them intentionally or not, is different from a kid who downloads an album of music from his favorite artist.
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true, but to some's suprise, alot of the software they crack, is purchased, but the cracking part i am sure is illegal anyways with the company. but very very few groups io am sure purchase things these days.
 
Sidewalkcookie said:
/QUOTE]

Must say do agree with that entire post - if it is illegal, it is illegal, no way to justify it, whether you agree with it or not.


is like when a speeder get caught by the cops, and they apologies, they ar "so sorry" they were speeding, they didnt "know" they were speeding.

All the excuses come out, but if they were never caught, they would of been sorry or even thought twice about it, otherwise they wouldnt have done it in the first place, period!
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Rincheese said:
What about the poor people? Without piracy do you think they would ever experience the entertainment we middleclass/rich people have in video games/music/movies? Like come on $60 here for 1 game is ridiculous, how are they supposed to afford it? Since the major companies only target us because they know we'll shell out money on their entertainment. It also leads to crime, with people stealing the games/cds/dvds physically from stores. Its really not stealing from a poor person's point of view, they already took a huge hit in their income actually buying a computer so give them a break. Piracy is like the greatest thing to happen to people without alot of money, its their safe haven to enjoy/experience what rich people enjoy everyday as in digital entertainment. As long as there are rich and poor people in this world there will always be piracy in one form or another.
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Fuck the poor.
They should be worrying about getting OUT of poverty, instead of wether they can play the newest hottest video game title.

Your argument validates theft by poor people. "Well, he killed my wife for her purse and earrings"

"But, you have to understand, he's POOR! "

"Oh, alrighty then.. that's fine"


Oh, and btw.. I get to say fuck the poor. In 1990 I was homeless (only about 2 months), living in an abandoned building. Today I am worth ~27 million. Why? I didn't concern myself with getting a nintendo. I graduated high school, turned 18, and my parents threw me out.
 
Eickst said:
So someone who robs a bank and gets away with $4000 should have a smaller penalty than someone who robs a bank and gets $400000 even though it was the exact same crime? (just being facetious with this post)
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Yes.

In sentencing, the severity of the crime is usually taken into account.
 
Nemesis999 said:
The difference between theft and copyright infringement is that one always generates loss, the other may or may not. In fact, copyright infringement can generate additional profit.

There are plenty of games that I have downloaded and never paid for. 90% of today's games are pure crap. The same thing chewed up and regurgitated over and over.

Does that mean company xyz has lost money from that? No. Because I would have just waited until someone I knew bought it and tried it out at their place. In fact, me downloading games and playing them first generates additional income for the companies that make quality software because I pay for them right after release when their sale price is highest, instead of a couple months down the road when I get a chance to try it.

If someone who isn't going to buy a game goes out and pirates it, there is no loss. Despite whatever the gaming industries version of the RIAA/MPAA says.
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What is your name and address. Could you compile a list of the games you just admitted to pirating? For sake of convenience, would you submit that information here?
http://www.theesa.com/piracy/index.php
Fucking retard. You should be banned. ADMITTING piracy here is clearly against the rules. Discussing it, is technically against the rules, but the nature of THIS thread, i think, would be an example of "well, it's impossible not to"
 
Eickst said:
First off, thanks for the insult. It debases your position and shows your true lack of character. Secondly, no where in my statement did I claim that Robin Hood existed.
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eickst said:
I'll bet the poor english peasants felt the same way about Robin Hood. Fucking thief, he should rot in prison!
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Certainly seemed to me that you think he was real. Or are the english peasants, and the jail, also fictional in your mind?


eickst said:
And on our way to anarchy? You obviously don't know the meaning of the word, which "explains your lack of intelligence on this subject." I suggest you look it up.
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Anarchy. : A political state of "non-government" or "non-order"
Personally, I think the word he should have used was "chaos", however, if you use "non-order" it would be applicable.
 
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