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So cables do make a difference?!?!?!

E

ExplodingTaco

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So, I get new old audio equipment today, a Marantz receiver and Boston Acoustics speakers from the early 80's. The guy I bought it from said I should get 12 Gauge wire for it. I currently have some 18 or 20 (not sure which). I have never been a believer in cables making much of a difference at least in short distances; especially the Monster advertising. Well, I went to go get some 12 Gauge just to see. No one had any but at Home Depot they had 50ft of Monster 16 Gauge for $10. I figure that is a good deal so why not. And WOW the bass is so much better. I'm sure it is not the brand name, but the cables DID make a big difference. Im moving in a couple of months and will get 12 gauge when I move.

Who knew it really does matter, at least in my case.
 
I personally think some quality cables do make a difference to a point... The weirdest thing is that you found is a Monster product for $10! I would kind of expect them charging $10 for Monster Cable Ultra High Speed Premium Grade 4.0 Gold Contact HD 1" Zip-tie.
 
i2abid said:
I personally think some quality cables do make a difference to a point... The weirdest thing is that you found is a Monster product for $10! I would kind of expect them charging $10 for Monster Cable Ultra High Speed Premium Grade 4.0 Gold Contact HD 1" Zip-tie.
Click to expand...

lol

It was on clearance.
 
gorb said:
lol

read this and get educated:
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
Click to expand...

On an 8ft run there was a noticeable difference between 16 gauge and 18/20 (again not sure what it is). But why read on the internet what I can prove in person?

Also my test was straight forward I had one speaker plugged to left jack and one to right each with a different cable and just changed the balance from left to right and back again. Then I switched the cables just to make sure it was not the channel or speaker. Same conclusion each time. The new cable had cleaner and more defined bass. I cant tell you if it was the brand, gauge or newness but there was a difference.
 
lol

i guess we can ignore science and measurements and just go with personal experiences from now on

now of course, the cables you had before might not have been pure copper, they could have been corroded, they could have been too small, or whatever
 
ExplodingTaco said:
Also my test was straight forward...
Click to expand...
Your test was straightforward, but you weren't blind: you knew which speaker was which (unless you set it up in a way which was particularly conducive to your forgetting which was which, at least consciously). This might seem insignificant, but it's actually a pretty big snag in the testing methodology. It's a bit like manually flipping back and forth between a lossless file and a lossy one and drawing conclusions based on that — it seems like it'd be good enough, but it's been shown time and time again that it isn't.

I'm not suggesting that there wasn't a difference, but unless the testing methodology is sound, I wouldn't suggest drawing any particular conclusions based on your experience. That being said, good low-gauge speaker wire is cheap enough, so there's very little reason not to buy a higher-gauge wire over a slightly more expensive low-gauge wire.
 
phide said:
Your test was straightforward, but you weren't blind: you knew which speaker was which (unless you set it up in a way which was particularly conducive to your forgetting which was which, at least consciously). This might seem insignificant, but it's actually a pretty big snag in the testing methodology. It's a bit like manually flipping back and forth between a lossless file and a lossy one and drawing conclusions based on that — it seems like it'd be good enough, but it's been shown time and time again that it isn't.
Click to expand...

The difference was not that small. There was no "Maybe option 2 is better." It could be that the older smaller wires were crap to begin with so I should not be able to tell the difference between gauges.


While typing the first paragraph I got the idea to let my wife give me the test blind. 5 out of 5 I was able to spot the new cable. Like I said I dont know why I can hear a difference but it is there.
 
heh.. I did AV installs for a living for some time. & the Ga & quality makes a difference to a point. Mostly the Ga though.
 
phide said:
Your test was straightforward, but you weren't blind: you knew which speaker was which (unless you set it up in a way which was particularly conducive to your forgetting which was which, at least consciously). This might seem insignificant, but it's actually a pretty big snag in the testing methodology. It's a bit like manually flipping back and forth between a lossless file and a lossy one and drawing conclusions based on that — it seems like it'd be good enough, but it's been shown time and time again that it isn't.

I'm not suggesting that there wasn't a difference, but unless the testing methodology is sound, I wouldn't suggest drawing any particular conclusions based on your experience. That being said, good low-gauge speaker wire is cheap enough, so there's very little reason not to buy a higher-gauge wire over a slightly more expensive low-gauge wire.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Seriously. The placebo effect is HUGE. They've fooled professional wine tasters with fancy bottles, for example.

You cannot trust a test that isn't a scientific blind test. You expect you might hear a difference, so you hear it. For example, a slight difference in volume can make a difference - louder sounds "better", generally, in those kinds of tests.
 
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ExplodingTaco said:
The difference was not that small. There was no "Maybe option 2 is better." It could be that the older smaller wires were crap to begin with so I should not be able to tell the difference between gauges.


While typing the first paragraph I got the idea to let my wife give me the test blind. 5 out of 5 I was able to spot the new cable. Like I said I dont know why I can hear a difference but it is there.
Click to expand...

aZn_plyR said:
Placebo much.
Click to expand...

Must be some crazy placebo when I can still pick it up not knowing. :eek:

ExplodingTaco said:
. . . I got the idea to let my wife give me the test blind. 5 out of 5 I was able to spot the new cable. Like I said I dont know why I can hear a difference but it is there.
Click to expand...


Funny thing about the internet, we read and read and think we know what things look, sound and feel like because someone else told us so. I probably would have said the same thing about placebo but then again the proof is in the pudding!
 
Who said cables don't make a difference? The issue is you don't need to spend obscene amounts of money to get good cables. This has been proven over and over and this thread just fodder to start some kind of cable war.
 
The most anybody needs to spend is whatever monoprice charges :D
 
I've only ever used one type of cable. I ordered 10m of Cambridge Symphony 400 and received 40m at the price of 10.. I only needed 6m lol. That was £3 per meter, wouldn't pay anymore than that.
The cable is of great quality by eye. By ear, well, sounds great but i have nothing to compare it too really.
 
Cables do make a difference to a point. Congratulations on discovering this and on a good price for the Monster cable. Realize, though, that diminishing returns applies to cables and never overspend on them. Monoprice quality/price is A okay for nearly every application.
 
Using some nice 12awg speaker cable makes sense to me, compared to the crappy 20 or 18awg stuff that sometimes comes with audio gear. Resistance can be important with speaker wire, and thicker cable has less resistance.

Monoprice has a 50 foot roll of 12awg for 12 bucks, so why not?

Now would I want to sit down and compare 12awg wire from Cardas, Monster, Audioquest, and so on... not really.
 
Wait 50ft of monster speaker cable for $10? That's pretty good even if I hate the brand.
 
I feel compelled to comment in this thread for anyone who happens to stumble across it.

1) wire is wire, and "quality" doesn't even have a noticeable effect. In one study done as an ABX double blind test, with audio professionals. There was no clear evidence that difference could be heard between a pair of "high end" audio cables, and a pair of coat hanger, bent to fit in to the posts.

2) Bi wireing is a waste

3) Inside the speakers themselves you will useally find either 18 or 20 Ga wire. The cheapest the manufacture can get there hands on.

4) People think louder is better, this is somewhat due to pure volume, somewhat due to the flechter-munson effect/curves. (ie thing do sound different and better at louder volumes).

5) a larger diameter, and shorter wire, has lower resistance then a thin long wire. This can cause #4 above to appear.

6) as long as your speaker and amp can produce enough volume to make you happy, don't worry about the losses in cable.

Summery- What ever you might think you have done to make your set up better, you didn't. The variances of speakers, of the same line built at the same time are a magnitude or more higher then anything a wire will ever do.

notwithstanding extream equilisation, the 2 things that most effect the final sound are speakers and the room they are sitting in.
 
kevinnem said:
3) Inside the speakers themselves you will useally find either 18 or 20 Ga wire. The cheapest the manufacture can get there hands on.
Click to expand...

this -

plus, comb-filtering from specular reflections + room modes/modal ringing will have a far greater impact on output than anything a cable could do. hell, even moving your head 4 inches can have drastic differences in freq response (which is why i don't fully trust abx tests..as it's highly unlikely someone's head is perfectly in the same spot for both readings)
 
kevinnem said:
5) a larger diameter, and shorter wire, has lower resistance then a thin long wire. This can cause #4 above to appear.

6) as long as your speaker and amp can produce enough volume to make you happy, don't worry about the losses in cable.
Click to expand...

The premise of this statement shows your ignorance of sound and makes the rest of your comments worthless.

Volume != Good Sound



My own double blind test shows that there was a difference between my old and new wires. Again I dont know what made the difference but I was 100% based just on sound without knowing which was which. I could believe what I heard or I could believe what you are read somewhere on the net . . .
 
ExplodingTaco said:
The premise of this statement shows your ignorance of sound and makes the rest of your comments worthless.

Volume != Good Sound



My own double blind test shows that there was a difference between my old and new wires. Again I dont know what made the difference but I was 100% based just on sound without knowing which was which. I could believe what I heard or I could believe what you are read somewhere on the net . . .
Click to expand...

That's not a double blind test. Google it or ABX testing.

It's been shown that people will pick the louder sound as "better" in a test, almost every time, all things equal.
 
kevinnem said:
I feel compelled to comment in this thread for anyone who happens to stumble across it.

1) wire is wire, and "quality" doesn't even have a noticeable effect. In one study done as an ABX double blind test, with audio professionals. There was no clear evidence that difference could be heard between a pair of "high end" audio cables, and a pair of coat hanger, bent to fit in to the posts.
Click to expand...

lol this story is like the game "telephone"

gets better and better everytime i see it repeated on a forum.

"We gathered up a 5 of our audio buddies. " turns into audio professionals... nevermind the fact that it was some old forum post.
 
ExplodingTaco said:
The premise of this statement shows your ignorance of sound and makes the rest of your comments worthless.

Volume != Good Sound



My own double blind test shows that there was a difference between my old and new wires. Again I dont know what made the difference but I was 100% based just on sound without knowing which was which. I could believe what I heard or I could believe what you are read somewhere on the net . . .
Click to expand...

dude please explain what YOU define a double blind as.

(this should be funny)
 
0055 said:
dude please explain what YOU define a double blind as.

(this should be funny)
Click to expand...

-I hooked up 2 speakers to the left and right channels of my amp. One had the new wire, one the old.
-I set the stereo mix to center,
-I turned my back
-I then had my wife (who did not know which side was what, infact she did not even know what I was doing) turn the mix to either left or right.
-Keeping everything equal she then moved it to the other channel.
-I picked which I thought was better. First or second and she recorded which side I picked.
-She then re centered the channel (not telling me which I picked.)
-At this time I instructed her to start over at a random side. We then repeated the above.
-5 times we did this and I picked which I thought was best each time.

-THEN

-I switched the CABLE ONLY left and right channel to account for maybe one one side (L or R) was better on the amp or speakers. In other words I left the L speaker hooked to L and the R speaker hooked to R, I only changed cable.
-Repeated above 5 Times.

I then looked at results. I was 10 for 10.


Sure a sample of 10 is not conclusive, and my methods were not that thorough, but it WAS double blind in that my wife did not know which side was which and I did not know which side she was using.
 
That is not double blind, you knew which side you installed the cable on, and turned your back there is still left and right originating from two different speakers. Even side by side, the acoustics can vary.

You'd need someone else to set up your equipment. I'd use one speaker and some relay banks to swap wires on the same speaker and at the source to keep the same channel and volume level. I'd also wrap the relays in foam so you could not hear the click as they are changing inputs. Then I'd use a recording of myself asking if you think first or second is better so any voice stress patterns would not indicate which way I have them set. Also I might have you sample AB AB AB BA BA AB BA BA BA BA as random can be streaky not just A then B then A then B repeatedly or A then B and B then A repeatedly.

This is a method to test the same size cable of different manufacturers, of course new larger wire without corrosion will sound better than small old wire that has oxidized.
 
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m_isom said:
That is not double blind, you knew which side you installed the cable on, and turned your back there is still left and right originating from two different speakers. Even side by side, the acoustics can vary.
Click to expand...

Actually they were side by side and I was sitting 15 feet away so that I could not distinguish source.

The funny thing is the assumption here is that it could not have been a difference in cable that caused a difference in sound. That is so Scientific of you :rolleyes: . . . Sure there are more thorough ways of testing but with all that I did to still get 10 out of 10, come on?!?!?!


I am an econ major and have assisted in 2 real trials before one double blind the other not. Do we really need that kind of study ran by PHD's for people to believe that crappy wire may not sound as good as newer better wire???
 
Guess you only read one line? By eliminating all variables but a cable change then you are testing that the cable and only the cable is the cause of the difference in sound. Yet you assume I have an assumption that the cable change does not offer any difference. Someone else point out the rest of his reading fails.
 
m_isom said:
Guess you only read one line? By eliminating all variables but a cable change then you are testing that the cable and only the cable is the cause of the difference in sound. Yet you assume I have an assumption that the cable change does not offer any difference. Someone else point out the rest of his reading fails.
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I was not talking specifically to you, but to the thread as a whole.

Either way there is no WAY I am going to perform a study the way you pointed out. It is just not worth my time or energy. I really dont know why I even post in some forums anymore. . .

I think I did a pretty good job and a way more thorough job testing my cables than anyone posting in this thread has ever done. You believe the internet, Ill believe what I have actually done.
 
ExplodingTaco said:
I was not talking specifically to you, but to the thread as a whole.

Either way there is no WAY I am going to perform a study the way you pointed out. It is just not worth my time or energy. I really dont know why I even post in some forums anymore. . .

I think I did a pretty good job and a way more thorough job testing my cables than anyone posting in this thread has ever done. You believe the internet, Ill believe what I have actually done.
Click to expand...

You didn't go far enough yet. If you buy some silver cables, you'll possibly hear a difference. If you buy the equipment-isolating, solid oak, anti-vibration feet for your equipment, you'll possibly hear a difference. If you buy a solid-core, oxidation-proof silver core power cable, it will stabilize the variance of the power flow or some such B.S. and make your sound better.

This is what the non-scientific mindset leads to.

You are being criticized because credible ABX testing has shown that you cannot tell the difference even between lamp cord and super-expensive, "good" cables.

If you go with "sounded better to me"...you'll end up buying a lot of snake oil.
 
GreenMonkey said:
This is what the non-scientific mindset leads to.

You are being criticized because credible ABX testing has shown that you cannot tell the difference even between lamp cord and super-expensive, "good" cables.
.
Click to expand...

So since 16 gauge lamp cords sounds as good as other 16 gauge speaker wire, 16 gauge speaker wire would not be better than 20 gauge speaker wire?
 
I just wish I could find that one article again where Monster cables were on par with wire hangers. no joke, that was a great read.
 
ExplodingTaco said:
So since 16 gauge lamp cords sounds as good as other 16 gauge speaker wire, 16 gauge speaker wire would not be better than 20 gauge speaker wire?
Click to expand...

If the wires are of the appropriate length for the load, they should sound exactly the same.

wires.png
 
and all this time i've only paid attention to gauge and connectors?
brand never came into question, unless they sold something nobody else made.
 
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