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Smaller Tubes Better
- Thread starter lemmy
- Start date
Megadeth_Guy01
2[H]4U
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- Nov 29, 2003
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lemmy said:
Larger tubing = more flow they are trying to say lol.
but look at size of the hole your water is going through in the block, it's smaller than the tube, i dunno i just remember in physics and phisiology that less area has faster flow rate, yes big tubing has a larger amount of fluid flowing through it, but doesn't necessarily mean faster
The blocks are designed that way to generate turbulence and thereby make sure that a more efficient heat transfer occurs. IF water just flowed through the block you would get areas of the interior chamber that generate a slower or no flow area. to use J-Mag's Nile River 
The center of the river moves faster and the sides move slower. thus the sides heat up more then the center because the center is moving the heat away from the area faster. If you take and increase the turbulence the whole area becomes more efficient at moving heat etc... Like the Nile in Full Flood.
Not a great analogy, but it is humorous if nothing else.
The center of the river moves faster and the sides move slower. thus the sides heat up more then the center because the center is moving the heat away from the area faster. If you take and increase the turbulence the whole area becomes more efficient at moving heat etc... Like the Nile in Full Flood.
Not a great analogy, but it is humorous if nothing else.
Excellent reaons for why low flow works so well. The hardware has been simply designed to take advantage of all the tricks of engineering to create as much thermal transference as possible. That is the beauty of low flow designed hardware. With a high flow system you really suffer from using 90 degree bends because it reduces flow and the BIB hardware does not work properly at low flow rates. On the other hand 90 degree bends in the low flow setup don't detract from the design of the hardware.
I think it is interesting to note that a low flow designed block will run as well or better at higher flows, but the high flow block is pretty much worthless at low flow.
I think it is interesting to note that a low flow designed block will run as well or better at higher flows, but the high flow block is pretty much worthless at low flow.
Top Nurse said:I think it is interesting to note that a low flow designed block will run as well or better at higher flows, but the high flow block is pretty much worthless at low flow.
Thats why AC blocks mated with a 3/8 setup is a beauty to behold
Though this is technically wrong, here is how you think of it:
You want the most water molecules possible to "see" the heat.
Now you can use a 1/2" tube, or a 1/4" tube to get the water to the heat.
Your pump is the same in either case, it has a max amount of pressure that it can generate.
So if you use the 1/2" tube, the water might flow a little slower than with the 1/4" tube, but overall more water will get through to the heat because it is easier for the pump to push through the bigger tube. (just think of drinking through a coffee stiring straw vs a normal straw)
And flow rate is measured in GPH (gallons per hour) so it dosn't matter how fast the water is moving, but rather how much water is getting there.
==>Lazn
You want the most water molecules possible to "see" the heat.
Now you can use a 1/2" tube, or a 1/4" tube to get the water to the heat.
Your pump is the same in either case, it has a max amount of pressure that it can generate.
So if you use the 1/2" tube, the water might flow a little slower than with the 1/4" tube, but overall more water will get through to the heat because it is easier for the pump to push through the bigger tube. (just think of drinking through a coffee stiring straw vs a normal straw)
And flow rate is measured in GPH (gallons per hour) so it dosn't matter how fast the water is moving, but rather how much water is getting there.
==>Lazn
Erasmus354
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2004
- Messages
- 9,450
flow != velocity
However both can be put to good use in cooling performance, the best example would be impingement blocks like Cathars.
However both can be put to good use in cooling performance, the best example would be impingement blocks like Cathars.
Top Nurse said:I think it is interesting to note that a low flow designed block will run as well or better at higher flows, but the high flow block is pretty much worthless at low flow.
Why do you continue to spout this nonsense when it has been disproved time and time again, with evidence, testing and results to show that it is incorrect. Is it the "blind faith" blinker that causes you to ignore all evidence to the contrary? Yes, there are "high flow" blocks that don't do so well at low-flow, but there are others that kick-butt at low flow. There are also "low flow" blocks that actually suck quite badly at low-flow, and really only come good at high-flow. There is actually no real pattern here, just whether or not a design is good or not.
The main difference between "high flow" and "low flow" blocks is in the tubing, and little else. If I stuck fittings for 1/4" or 8mm ID tubing on my blocks, people would run around saying they are low-flow blocks too, but it's not about that.
A "straw" vs a "garden hose" analogy is perhaps more apt. Yes, in a straw the water velocity is faster, but the volume per time is WAY lower. It is incredibly harder to push large volumes of water through a straw.
What good is it to have high velocity in a straw anyway? How does that help? Almost all waterblocks just take some water-flow that comes in, and jets it, or channels it, through some structure within the block. The velocity of the flow in the tubes coming into the blocks means nothing (with the only exception here being direct fitting impingement blocks - for which none are still being made to my knowledge). What matters is the volumetric flow rate through the block, and the idea behind larger tubing is to deliver more flow more easily, and that's it.
All waterblocks perform better with more flow, regardless of the design. The reason for why large tubing exists is to choose tubing sized correctly such that the tubing is not an overly significant source of restriction in the system.
That people use smaller sizes is purely an appearance vs efficiency trade-off. Smaller tubing sizes are less efficient, because the pump wastes more of its energy trying to get the water flow to where it's needed. Is the difference significant? Sometimes yes - sometimes no. Depends on many factors.
What is false though is the assumption that just because some block gets used with small ID tubing that it is necessarily more efficient at low flow, just as is false is the assumption that just because some block primarily gets configured for use with larger id tubing that the same block is therefore inefficient at low-flow.
What that's doing in basing a subjective interpretation of efficiency purely on the fitting size, which is akin to determining whether or not someone has a good work ethic due to them wearing glasses or not.
Cathar said:
I for one, thank you for your blunt, simple, and staight foward reasoning. This is what I have been trying to convey in other post but apparently not to any degree of success.
Seems to me people are acting too much like lemmings, blindly going where another leads without actually using that wonderful brain we are gifted with.
BellaCroix
[H]ard|Gawd
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- 1,054
You know, all this back and forth is getting to me. Wish I had just bought AC/Innova when I decided that's what I wanted to do and had lived to appreciate/regret it later. Now I'm stuck trying to decide which is more important to me:
1) Appearance with acceptable performance [AC/Innova]
2) Better performance but butt ugly (IMO) [DD/etc]
I'm willing to admit and accept that 1/2" tubing with a good high-flow pump that can deliver the goods and utilize the the added opportunity for greater flowrates has the potential to deliver marginally better temperatures. Particularly when paired with waterblocks designed to not dramatically impeed that additional waterflow (since I'm assuming (and could be VERY wrong) that the blocks are the greatest source of resistance and backpressure).
That having been said, I'm not a power-overclocker. I'm not one of the kids running around trying to push a 386 to 4GHz. I'm watercooling to accomodate slight overclocks and to deliver better cooling, quieter and to increase stability. Okay, also because it looks better than a big friggin HSU strapped to my core. If I want a signifigantly faster processor I'll go buy a faster processor.
With that in mind, what's going to be best for me. Do not consider cost/price in the equation. Not that I'm rolling in cash but I have the means to purchase AC/Innova and am not concerned about the price.
1) Appearance with acceptable performance [AC/Innova]
2) Better performance but butt ugly (IMO) [DD/etc]
I'm willing to admit and accept that 1/2" tubing with a good high-flow pump that can deliver the goods and utilize the the added opportunity for greater flowrates has the potential to deliver marginally better temperatures. Particularly when paired with waterblocks designed to not dramatically impeed that additional waterflow (since I'm assuming (and could be VERY wrong) that the blocks are the greatest source of resistance and backpressure).
That having been said, I'm not a power-overclocker. I'm not one of the kids running around trying to push a 386 to 4GHz. I'm watercooling to accomodate slight overclocks and to deliver better cooling, quieter and to increase stability. Okay, also because it looks better than a big friggin HSU strapped to my core. If I want a signifigantly faster processor I'll go buy a faster processor.
With that in mind, what's going to be best for me. Do not consider cost/price in the equation. Not that I'm rolling in cash but I have the means to purchase AC/Innova and am not concerned about the price.
BellaCroix, buy what suits you. If you like "bling", and that suits your style, then go for it. No shame in it. On the other end of the spectrum there are those who'd be happy with a dog turd sitting on their CPU if it kept the CPU cold, and overclocked better. They don't care - they close the case side and from the outside it looks the same anyway.
No one here is arguing against AC or anything. If it floats yer boat, go with it. All that various people are doing here (myself included) is attempting to hold back false statements that continue to spill forth from various people's keyboards and delivered with as much hutzpah as a used car salesman.
No one here is arguing against AC or anything. If it floats yer boat, go with it. All that various people are doing here (myself included) is attempting to hold back false statements that continue to spill forth from various people's keyboards and delivered with as much hutzpah as a used car salesman.
BellaCroix said:
Unless you get some cheapo Kingwin/Evercool or some other slop kit you will be happy with it. For me the looks mattered for about 15 minutes, after that it wears off and you just want it to perform. My beef is with certain posts that say certain products are the best bar none.
So get whatever makes your boat float and don't worry about it.
The Asetek Waterchill kits are nice and not too many people have them.
Cathar said:
as much hutzpah as a used car salesman?
Everyone has nothing but respect for your knowledge of cooling and blocks, however, the correct spelling is CHUTZPAH and the definition is; Utter nerve; effrontery: "has the chutzpah to claim a lock on God and morality" (New York Times).
Sorry, but being Jewish, please refrain from using the word in the context in which you did and especially in the same sentence with salesman. It means much more than that.
BellaCroix said:
On this point - forget 1/2" ID. Oversized and silly, even for "high flow" systems.
IMO - there are 3 main tubing sizes of note, and a 4th silly size.
7/16" ID with 3/32" walls = 5/8" OD
This is the "new" 1/2" tubing, so to speak. More slender, easier to route, cheaper, not as heavy, and when stretched over 1/2" OD fittings (easy to do - no need to even dip it in hot water), will not lower flow rates as opposed to a 1/2" ID tubed system.
i.e. if 1/2" looks ugly to you, and I don't blame you, then you're still thinking "old school" high-flow. Times have moved on, 7/16" ID is where it's at. 7/16" is good for for blocks with >0.25mH2O of flow restriction @ 1gpm. If block restriction is less than 0.25mH2O @ 1gpm, then it may be worthwhile considering using 1/2" ID tubing.
3/8" ID or 10mm ID
This is actually still a "performance" tubing size. The differences between 3/8" ID and 7/16" ID in terms of flow rate and performance are fairly minimal unless you're talking about some of the older truly high-flow dependent blocks (eg. Maze 3/4). This tubing size is the best tradeoff if the 5/8" OD of 7/16" ID tubing is still too large for you to accept. 3/8" ID tubing is good for blocks of >1.0mH2O restriction @ 1gpm.
5/16" ID or 8mm ID
This is where we start talking about the transition between "high flow" and "low flow". In fact 8mm ID tubing really is more of a "low-moderate flow" tubing size. 8mm isn't really a true low-flow tubing size. Much like 3/8" ID, it's just the next rung down on the size/efficiency ladder. When dealing with high restriction blocks (>3.0mH2O pressure drop @ 1gpm) then 8mmID tubing makes sense as it won't be a significant source of restriction in comparison to the waterblock.
1/4" or 6mm ID (or smaller)
This is where it gets a little silly. Choosing tubing size this small really is just focusing purely on appearance. Really only makes sense with waterblocks with >10mH2O pressure drop @ 1gpm, otherwise the tubing size starts to become a significant source of restriction.
theseeker said:
I even checked my dictionary before I wrote it. hutzpah is a frequently used variant spelling of chutzpah, which is the more pure Jewish spelling. In western cultures however I have seen hutzpah been used far more frequently than chutzpah, even though I know that chutzpah is the correct spelling. I just used the spelling that I believed would be more widely understood. My wifes best friend is Jewish, so yes, I'm quite familiar with its use. As far as I understand it, and my wife's friend and the dictionary also agrees with me, it basically means "shameless audacity", and I wholly stand by my decision to use it as such.
Having heard wife's friend say the word though, I can easily understand why it's spelt either way. There doesn't really seem to be an English way to write what the first sound actually is.
theseeker said:
Do you know what anal, or nit-picker means???
Actually people have been blabbing with as much CHUTZPAH as a used card salesman. I think the definition : Utter nerve; effrontery: fits quite nicely with what used car salesman do.
Oh yeh, here is the definition of HUTZPAH from Dictionary.com:
3 entries found for hutzpah.
hutz·pah n.
Variant of chutzpah.
chutz·pah also hutz·pah Audio pronunciation of "hutzpah" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tsp, ht-)
n.
Utter nerve; effrontery: has the chutzpah to claim a lock on God and morality (New York Times).
[Yiddish khutspe, from Mishnaic Hebrew upâ, from ap, to be insolent. See p in Semitic Roots.]
hutzpah
n : (Yiddish) unbelievable gall; insolence; audacity [syn: chutzpa, chutzpah]
Your comment was snide and made with as much CHUTZPAH as a used car salesman...
plywood99 said:
No, my comment was not snide, nor was it intended to be interpreted that way. I take your comments as someone who is naive. Sorry, but you do not understand the culture or the language. We both speak Yiddish! My wife's parents were both concentration camp survivors, one from Auschwitz. We both lost family in the Holocaust. This a subject we do not take lightly. I would simply prefer that religion stay out of this forum.
My wife's friend is Jewish, my best friend is black, my neighbor is Muslim....these are phrases that should never be used. We are all people and we live in a country where we can choose our own religion and our own political beliefs without fear of retribution.
Please do not begin to try and lecture me on this topic.
Lets stick with watercooling and the like.
BellaCroix
[H]ard|Gawd
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Cathar said:
Thank you very much, Cathar. You've somewhat put my mind at rest. For the same reason I think 1/2" looks like twice warmed poop (my current, test-riq is using 1/2" Tygon) I think the same thing about 1/4" tubing and had planned on using 8mm Innovatek tubing and fittings.
With limited (read near none) technical expertise in selecting a tube size I thought the 1/2" tubing was bordering on overkill and thought the 1/4" seemed inpractical.
I think the real problem with the argument is that it's always taken as "high-flow" vs "low-flow" which is too subjective to actually argue. That post was the perfect explination that I was looking for (although some people may disagree) and has made me clear enough to make an informed decision.
theseeker said:
Now that is funny! You brought up the whole hutzpah chutzpah thing in the first place.
Perhaps a little practicing of what one is preaching is in order.
But agreed, let's stick with watercooling and forget this other hutzpah stuff.....
theseeker, look there's no offense meant to your culture. My wife's friend grew up in Israel before migrating out to Australia.
One thing that I ask you to accept though is that with the intermingling of cultures that through this also comes the intermingling of languages. Lots of lovely words in the English language which are derived from other languages and cultures. The english language would be poorer without them. Sadly there may be some loss of language impact or meaning for various words, something which only someone from the original culture can only truly appreciate, but there is never (well, rarely) any offense intended in using words of another culture in a less than strictly correct sense. These words have just taken on a meaning of their own in the English language that approximates the original cultural meaning of that word.
I am a little offended that you're also here telling me how and when I should be using some word though. I am using the word in its commonly understood (in the English sense) nature and far as I can see, it's perfectly apt. It all depends on how seriously you wish to approach the subject of being a "language guardian", but berating others for their use of words from one's culture which only occurs through a poor explanation of what the word means, then well, who's fault is that?
One thing that I ask you to accept though is that with the intermingling of cultures that through this also comes the intermingling of languages. Lots of lovely words in the English language which are derived from other languages and cultures. The english language would be poorer without them. Sadly there may be some loss of language impact or meaning for various words, something which only someone from the original culture can only truly appreciate, but there is never (well, rarely) any offense intended in using words of another culture in a less than strictly correct sense. These words have just taken on a meaning of their own in the English language that approximates the original cultural meaning of that word.
I am a little offended that you're also here telling me how and when I should be using some word though. I am using the word in its commonly understood (in the English sense) nature and far as I can see, it's perfectly apt. It all depends on how seriously you wish to approach the subject of being a "language guardian", but berating others for their use of words from one's culture which only occurs through a poor explanation of what the word means, then well, who's fault is that?
BellaCroix
[H]ard|Gawd
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theseeker said:
Ghesh... lets skip the semantics debate. The word Hutzpah/Chutzpah/Chutzpa is a common, colloquial word in the English language. It's a word of Yiddish or informal Hebrew origin. I've been unable to find reference to its use being derogatory or deflamatory toward people of Jewish decent. Even if there's something I've been unable to find in that regard I'm convinced that Cathar did not mean it that way.
Trying to claim lock on a colloquial word because of its origin is rediculous. That's like me saying that I don't want anyone to use any words who have origins in Latin (unless they're used in the strictest historical sense) since I'm Catholic.
The English/American language is borrowed from other cultures, languages, slangs, etc.
When the hell are people going to drop the rediculous, over-reactionary Politically Correct stuff and focus on the message behind a word rather than the word itself? Its just a word.
Just the thoughts of an Anglo-Scot/Irish-Polish-Geek-Middle Class American.
TheLonelySwedish
Limp Gawd
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I definitely just learned a lot from this thread....
Every one is allowed their opinion, which is the best thing about America.
Until you have been treated as a minority because of your religion, culture and your language, you have no idea of how it feels. To this day I have to be careful of acknowledging my beliefs. To most people, our culture and beliefs are no big deal, but to some they are taboo. When we lived in NY it was no problem, but when you live in the south it can be, BTW the Mormon's dont like us either.
Cathar, you live in a place, where BTW I have been, where religious beliefs make no difference. You are quite fortunate.
Personally I could care less about a persons cultural or religious beliefs, but believe me there are those who condemn our beliefs.
Can we quit now?
Until you have been treated as a minority because of your religion, culture and your language, you have no idea of how it feels. To this day I have to be careful of acknowledging my beliefs. To most people, our culture and beliefs are no big deal, but to some they are taboo. When we lived in NY it was no problem, but when you live in the south it can be, BTW the Mormon's dont like us either.
Cathar, you live in a place, where BTW I have been, where religious beliefs make no difference. You are quite fortunate.
Personally I could care less about a persons cultural or religious beliefs, but believe me there are those who condemn our beliefs.
Can we quit now?
BellaCroix
[H]ard|Gawd
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Cathar said:
Heh, you should stop by my area of Cleveland if you're ever in the States. I think the most common mix of ancestory in the area is Scot/Irish and Polish. Probably because the old Irish-American ghetto* bordered right against "Slavic Village" the Polish-American ghetto*. It's always funny at family reunions to listen to the Sullivans and Comyns try to pronounce Dlugokensi and Szdlowski and Dombrowski.
-Before I get flamed for using the word "ghetto": *=(using the second definiton found in Webster's New World College Dictionary, Fourth Edition, (c)2001: "any section of a city in which many members of some minority group live; or to which they are restricted as by economic pressure or social discrimination.
TheLonelySwedish
Limp Gawd
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Oh plywood, what would I do without you
theseeker said:
Australia, by and large, is a vast nation of agnostics, and we like it that way. Where we find discrimination occurring in Australia is typically when religious groups band together and start religious/race based skirmishes with other religious/racial groups.
Needless to say, this upsets many Australians. Most Aussies don't care what it is that you believe and won't discriminate against you because of what you believe, almost purely because they simply don't care enough for it to be a reason to discriminate. It's your business. Where the trouble always seems to start is when people hold onto their beliefs so strongly that they effectively isolate themselves from the wider culture of tolerance (or indifference) within Australia, or start battles with other sub-cultures. i.e. it is often the minority's intolerance that is typically the root cause of any discrimination issues. The problem is that the culture of tolerance tries to accept that, but it can't. You can be as tolerant as you like to be of other cultures, but it simply doesn't work if they are utterly intolerant of your culture in return.