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Sm 3.0

S

smcgee85

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 23, 2004
Messages
174
How important is SM or any of the other stuff that the 6800 has that the X800XT PE doesn't? I thought I had decided to get the Asus X800XT PE, but then I started to wonder if I was making a mistake not getting a card with these new features. I upgrade gpu's about every 2.5 years.

P.S. If you have a 6800 and are trying to convince yourself that you did the right thing, then try not to be biased when you post.

Ty,
Smcgee85
 
smcgee85 said:
How important is SM or any of the other stuff that the 6800 has that the X800XT PE doesn't? I thought I had decided to get the Asus X800XT PE, but then I started to wonder if I was making a mistake not getting a card with these new features. I upgrade gpu's about every 2.5 years.

P.S. If you have a 6800 and are trying to convince yourself that you did the right thing, then try not to be biased when you post.

Ty,
Smcgee85
Click to expand...

I'm in the same boat. I'd like to know as well.
 
What do people mean by use SM3? Does this mean if you don't have it the game won't work, or that if you have it quality will be better?

Smcgee85
 
Look I don't care about this whole Nvidia vs. ATi thing. IMO to see who has ultimately won this round, just look to see what forum is more popular here, ATi's or Nvidia's. That is all the indication I need.
 
I uh... didn't meant to post that in this topic. I was trying to post that in another topic that is debating between the two. Sorry.
 
neisius said:
It will be that long before many games use sm3
Click to expand...
No it won't. But it is not a *needed* feature as all it does is allows for a speed increase.

Scott
 
The_Dominion said:
Look I don't care about this whole Nvidia vs. ATi thing. IMO to see who has ultimately won this round, just look to see what forum is more popular here, ATi's or Nvidia's. That is all the indication I need.
Click to expand...


then why post if you didnt care?
*edit* caught your edit

to the OP SM3 will add some new features...how much they are worth to you varies from person to person.
in farcry sm3 should add some speed as well as visuals via displacement mapping and what not.
im not an expert so ill let someone else go more indepth about it...but if youve seen the HDR screen shots from farcry...look at the walls thats displacement mapping if i remember right. so itll add to visuals some :)


sonyman said:
No it won't. But it is not a *needed* feature as all it does is allows for a speed increase.

Scott
Click to expand...

speed yes but youve also got the displacement mapping as well....so while speed is one thing youw ill get the added visuals.
 
If you upgrade every 2.5 years, then you'll probably want a 6800 Ultra OC just because it is capable of SM 3.0 now, where as the X800XT PE does not support it. It's basically a useless feature for now, as only one game uses SM 3.0 natively, being FarCry.

In 2.5 years, every game will probably use SM 3, or even something better.

And no, if you did get an X800XT PE, you just wouldn't be able to take advantage of the SM 3.0 optimizations, but you'd still be able to play the game as long as your system meets or exceeds the hardware requirements.

Take Price Vs. Performance Vs. "future-proofing" into consideration, as you don't upgrade your card when a new one comes out like some do.

I will be buying a 9800 Pro now, though. I'll wait till PCI-E matures before buying another graphics card.
 
sonyman said:
No it won't. But it is not a *needed* feature as all it does is allows for a speed increase.

Scott
Click to expand...
Not a speed increase but IQ increase. If anything it will be a speed decrease because it lets you do more fancy things, not sm2 things faster.
 
No it won't. But it is not a *needed* feature as all it does is allows for a speed increase.
Click to expand...

Won't be needed cause all it does is allow for 'speed increases'? LOL, can you hear yourself? hahaha. Thanks that was funny. It made my day.
 
neisius said:
Not a speed increase but IQ increase. If anything it will be a speed decrease because it lets you do more fancy things, not sm2 things faster.
Click to expand...

It wont cause a speed descrease. Pixel Shader 3.0 adds support for much longer shader programs. The latest revision of PS 2.0 supports shader programs up to 512 instructions long while the new PS 3.0 supports more than 65,000 instructions. Most developers are only using shader programs that run around 50 instructions though so it will most likely be a while before even 512 instructions are used.

If anything descreases performance on these cards it will be the deeper pipelines and branch mispredictions.
 
burningrave101 said:
It wont cause a speed descrease. Pixel Shader 3.0 adds support for much longer shader programs.
Click to expand...
I would think when they start using more instructions it will slow things down.
 
Farcry doesn't use SM3 natively, its part of a patch, one that hasn't been released to the general public yet.

And like he said, it'll be 2 years before SM3.0 will make any difference in game visuals (and even then thats just displacement mapping, which unreal3 engine is the only engine sporting ti yet, and thasts summer 2006 earliest...so yeah..)
 
Visable-assassin said:
in farcry sm3 should add some speed as well as visuals via displacement mapping and what not.
Click to expand...

FarCry will use Parrallax Mapping which can be done in SM 2.0 and up.

im not an expert so ill let someone else go more indepth about it...but if youve seen the HDR screen shots from farcry...look at the walls thats displacement mapping if i remember right. so itll add to visuals some
Click to expand...

Again, that is not Displacement Mapping. It is Parrallax Mapping, also called Offset Mapping.

HDR can be done on the 9700Pro and up as well.

speed yes but youve also got the displacement mapping as well....so while speed is one thing youw ill get the added visuals.
Click to expand...

It is not Displacement Mapping.

Parrallax/Offset Mapping can be done in SM 2.0 and up.
 
DVAmon said:
as only one game uses SM 3.0 natively, being FarCry.
Click to expand...

It does not use it 'natively'. But it is being patched to support some SM 3.0 calls, for performance increases.
 
neisius said:
Not a speed increase but IQ increase. If anything it will be a speed decrease because it lets you do more fancy things, not sm2 things faster.
Click to expand...

Not an IQ increase, but a speed Increase. :)
 
burningrave101 said:
It wont cause a speed descrease. Pixel Shader 3.0 adds support for much longer shader programs. The latest revision of PS 2.0 supports shader programs up to 512 instructions long while the new PS 3.0 supports more than 65,000 instructions. Most developers are only using shader programs that run around 50 instructions though so it will most likely be a while before even 512 instructions are used.

If anything descreases performance on these cards it will be the deeper pipelines and branch mispredictions.
Click to expand...

this man knows what he's talking about

dynamic branching performance is the big questionmark right now, just how well will it perform....
 
any news on when this patch is gonna surface? i heard within the next 2 weeks.
 
neisius said:
I would think when they start using more instructions it will slow things down.
Click to expand...

depends, but right now they aren't any games even coming close to pixel shader 2.0's instruction limit

well, except for the ATI Ruby demo I think
 
Bad_Boy said:
any news on when this patch is gonna surface? i heard within the next 2 weeks.
Click to expand...

on http://www.farcry.ubi.com/

We’re sorry to say that this community update is to let you know that the patch & SDK won’t make it out next week.

The Far Cry Patch and SDK were found to contain a few remaining bugs which justify extra testing -- better safe than sorry. More information to follow as it becomes available.
Click to expand...

that was posted on 6/11
 
Brent_Justice said:
FarCry will use Parrallax Mapping which can be done in SM 2.0 and up.



Again, that is not Displacement Mapping. It is Parrallax Mapping, also called Offset Mapping.

HDR can be done on the 9700Pro and up as well.



It is not Displacement Mapping.

Parrallax/Offset Mapping can be done in SM 2.0 and up.
Click to expand...


Like I said Brent Im not expert :p
But thanks for pointing out the correct term :)
Which is why I said "I think" and id let someone else go more indepth :p so you stepped in
 
I was at the Nvidia GeForce Lan, and I've scene first hand the effects and features that the
6800U can perform and its jawdropping (the UnealEngine 3 stuff is fukin' tits!)

From reading the reviews/threads and paying attention to [H]'s style, I've surmised that when this
FarCry patch comes out, the XT will be able to deliver the same visuals, the same effects
at a near similar performance, because:

XT is more powerfull than the Ultra, but since SM3.0 is more of a speed performance
technique then the XT will slow down a quiet a bit, but I think that the eXTra power will
bring the XT on par with the Ultra. (i'm assuming the Ultra wont have a big a performance
hit than the XT would using SM3 instuctions)

If I'm wrong, then by the time I get either one of these cards and the FarCry patch come out
I should be within the 30 day return limit of Fry's. :p
 
From everything I have read on Far Cry forums on the web the graphic additions like virtual displacement mapping and HDR are going to be available to both Nvidia and ATI. The difference being that the 6800 cards may can some performance increases. There was an interview with the CEO of Crytek that basically said that.

Crytek CEO Interview

See Item #8
 
Everything done in SM3.0 can be done in SM2.0 except for Displacement Mapping and as it is a new feature it will be a While before it kicks in ::) kinda like the G400 and Bump Mapping ^^
 
Digital Viper-X- said:
Everything done in SM3.0 can be done in SM2.0 except for Displacement Mapping and as it is a new feature it will be a While before it kicks in ::) kinda like the G400 and Bump Mapping ^^
Click to expand...

The Parhelia also supports displacement mapping, and the 9700Pro and up do as well, you can see how many games out there right now use displacement mapping, none ;)

I don't think we will honestly see Displacement Mapping in a game until DX Next in Longhorn, maybe in 2006.
 
Brent_Justice said:
Not an IQ increase, but a speed Increase. :)
Click to expand...
doesn't it make sense that <512 instructions with sm2 would be faster then <65000 with sm3?
Ok, how about I change my statement to "Programmers have the ability to make more complex code. more complex = slower and higher IQ."
And I'm not talking about sm3 in farcry.
 
neisius said:
Ok, how about I change my statement to "Programmers have the ability to make more complex code. more complex = slower and higher IQ."
Click to expand...

that statement makes sense

but we aren't even coming close to pixel shader 2.0 instruction limits yet in a game

and the x800 series also now support a higher instruction limit, ps2.0b

and you can always multipass shaders in ps 2.0 if they are to long, at a speed decrease of course, but you'd get the same IQ

and then you also have to think of the install base, what are developers of games going to target, right now there are only a handful of SM 2.0 games, most are still DX8 level, the target is starting to shift toward SM 2.0 level now, it will be a couple years before the target changes to SM 3.0

two of the biggest games coming out this year are HL2, which is SM 2.0, and Doom3 which is OpenGL which is really on the level of DX8

the ONLY game that i've heard about so far that will use some SM 3.0 stuff is FarCry, and only to increase performance, not IQ
 
Brent_Justice said:
the target is starting to shift toward SM 2.0 level now, it will be a couple years before the target changes to SM 3.0
Click to expand...
That's why I just ordered a 9800pro :D
 
Brent_Justice said:
that statement makes sense

but we aren't even coming close to pixel shader 2.0 instruction limits yet in a game

and the x800 series also now support a higher instruction limit, ps2.0b

and you can always multipass shaders in ps 2.0 if they are to long, at a speed decrease of course, but you'd get the same IQ

and then you also have to think of the install base, what are developers of games going to target, right now there are only a handful of SM 2.0 games, most are still DX8 level, the target is starting to shift toward SM 2.0 level now, it will be a couple years before the target changes to SM 3.0

two of the biggest games coming out this year are HL2, which is SM 2.0, and Doom3 which is OpenGL which is really on the level of DX8

the ONLY game that i've heard about so far that will use some SM 3.0 stuff is FarCry, and only to increase performance, not IQ
Click to expand...

That's why I have a X800XT - maybe if things change in the way of PS3.0 in games towards the end of the year during the inevitable product refresh cycle I may get a 6800-based board but I am probably set until this time next year when I will get a new PCI Express-based PC and not have to be a first generation guinea pig.
 
Brent_Justice said:
two of the biggest games coming out this year are HL2, which is SM 2.0, and Doom3 which is OpenGL which is really on the level of DX8

the ONLY game that i've heard about so far that will use some SM 3.0 stuff is FarCry, and only to increase performance, not IQ
Click to expand...

supposedly,
madden 2005 (August 2004)
tiger 2005 (TBA, but they usually come out 1 year before the title year)
stalker (Q3 2004)
vampire bloodlines (TBA 2004)
painkiller
splinter cell X (late 2004)
driver 3
lord of the rings: battle for middle earth (Fall 2004)
all dates according to ign.com

will all use sm3.0 this year. but i personally havent seen much news on it.
 
Bad_Boy said:
supposedly,
madden 2005 (August 2004)
tiger 2005 (TBA, but they usually come out 1 year before the title year)
stalker (Q3 2004)
vampire bloodlines (TBA 2004)
painkiller
splinter cell X (late 2004)
driver 3
lord of the rings: battle for middle earth (Fall 2004)
all dates according to ign.com

will all use sm3.0 this year. but i personally havent seen much news on it.
Click to expand...

What will be interesting if those titles actually implement PS3.0 only effects or just performance-related additions. Games like Stalker are so far along now I sure hate to see it push till next year already because of this. Painkiller is a strange game on that list since it's already out and it already runs pretty damn fast anyway.
 
Bad_Boy said:
supposedly,
madden 2005 (August 2004)
tiger 2005 (TBA, but they usually come out 1 year before the title year)
stalker (Q3 2004)
vampire bloodlines (TBA 2004)
painkiller
splinter cell X (late 2004)
driver 3
lord of the rings: battle for middle earth (Fall 2004)
all dates according to ign.com

will all use sm3.0 this year. but i personally havent seen much news on it.
Click to expand...

interesting

i'm looking forward to Stalker, gonna be fun, also Splinter Cell X, what's Driver 3?

I'll have to go hunting and look some of these games up...
 
yeah im interested in the list also. heres my source.

titles.jpg

but youve probally seen it already.

the grafan game supposedly comes out 2004-12-31 according to ign.com but i never heard of this game.
 
Who cares what SM3 will be doing, by the time SM3 comes out you'll probably just have gotten your 6800Ultra ready the way it's looking. It's as if they don't take 6 months to prepare to make and ship these cards... Paper releases are annoying.

~Adam
 
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