Silver Cooling

[RaphaelVinceti]

Im looking for Silver watercooling blocks. I know Dangerden has some, but what about radiators, are there any silver radiators? If not, how would using a Thermaltake Rocket cooling system with some silver blocks work, anyone know?

 

[mrgstiffler]

Silver radiatiors? Are you made of money or something? That would cost some serious coinage.

 

[DermicSavage]

Silver radiatiors? Are you made of money or something? That would cost some serious coinage.

not to mention the gain from it would be marginal at best... just like the difference between copper and silver waterblocks

 

[killernoodle]

You want one of those rocket things?

I dunno about you, but if I had a gigantic phallic looking thing on my desk I'd get some ugly looks.

 

[plywood99]

The achille's heel in passive cooling systems is the rad. Slapping a silver block into one of these systems, (unless it is for the bling bling factor), will be a total waste of money....

 

[Vertigo Acid]

Also, in the case of DD's silver blocks, there aren't really optimized for silver, as they're the exact same design as the copper blocks.

 

[Erasmus354]

Also, in the case of DD's silver blocks, there aren't really optimized for silver, as they're the exact same design as the copper blocks.

ummm, there isn't really any optimizing to be done between different metals. The design of the block has nothing to do with the metal it is constructed of.

 

[Top Nurse]

Well I would skip the idea of a silver radiator. If you fall over at the price of silver blocks ranging from $125 to $300 you can just imagine that a silver radiator would probably run about $5,000 USD even if they could even do it which IMHO is doubtful. However the subject of silver waterblocks is a whole different ballgame. Silver has some rather unique properties that make it an excellent choice of metal for a waterblock inside a computer system.

First of all you can't use pure silver because it is way too soft. So what you do use is what they call Sterling Silver (SS), which is a silver alloy that is easily molded and machinable. I think you have to have about 92.5% silver content to call it SS. SS conducts heat more efficiently than copper. So why don't they use it all the time? $$$. The second rather unique property of silver is that it tends to kill just about any bugs it comes in contact with, which means that you would probably have about zero chances of having any biological contamination in your system running just distilled H20. Silver based medicines are commonly used to treat a wide ranging amount of surface infections. However, it's not a good idea to have any systemic inducements of silver or you might end up at the emergency department of your local hospital for silver poisoning. So don't be sucking on any tubes trying to get the water to go around or out of your system! The third unique property is simply bling! It looks fantastic when polished to a high sheen as you will notice many people wear the stuff.

Unfortunately the DD blocks don't have a lot of bling IMHO and don't even appear to be polished very well. If you want to see a good example of bling go here to Aqua Computer. These Twinplex blocks are all individually serialized and stamped on the side of the block. They make quite a few of their blocks in silver editions which are often limited editions to boot.

I have a Silver Edition Cuplex XT (only 100 made) on order as we speak from Aqua Computer. You can see a pic of it here in it's non silver model. Looks pretty cool, huh?

 

[DermicSavage]

The second rather unique property of silver is that it tends to kill just about any bugs it comes in contact with, which means that you would probably have about zero chances of having any biological contamination in your system running just distilled H20. Silver based medicines are commonly used to treat a wide ranging amount of surface infections. However, it's not a good idea to have any systemic inducements of silver or you might end up at the emergency department of your local hospital for silver poisoning. So don't be sucking on any tubes trying to get the water to go around or out of your system!

Would this be related to having your skin turn black when it comes in contact with silver nitrate?

 

[RaphaelVinceti]

Where can I get silver blocks then, other than the dangerden ones. Also, what should i use, instead of the Thermaltake Rocket?

 

[Vertigo Acid]

ummm, there isn't really any optimizing to be done between different metals. The design of the block has nothing to do with the metal it is constructed of.

Are you sure? I would think that as a result of different specific heat and thermal conductivity that you might want a more or less restrictive block with silver to get the best performance gain. Or that might just be me talking out my as

Daishi, got an opinion on this?

 

[Cathar]

ummm, there isn't really any optimizing to be done between different metals. The design of the block has nothing to do with the metal it is constructed of.

Sure there's something to be gained by tuning for the different thermal properties of the metal. The different thermal conduction rates affect the scale of the thermal gradient between the heat source and the convection area. Depending on the target rate of convection (dictated by block structure and targetted flow rate/pump power), this can have quite profound effects on how best to balance how much of a certain material to use and how to use it best.

 

[Aviddigi]

Home depot + money + silver spray paint (engine / industrial) = You can tell everyone you paid $1000 to have a silver rad.

If you want the bling get it chromed, much cheaper and ill post pics once i find them. I live in san diego so i take customers computer parts down to mexico to have it done since its half as much then the places in the U.S.

 

[Top Nurse]

Cathar makes the nice looking and performing Little River silver blocks IIRC. Aqua Computer also makes some nice ones as well. I think that silver is becoming more common in the high end water cooling arena.

 

[RaphaelVinceti]

Hmm.. All i can find for silver blocks are the CPU, anyone know of some silver GPU blocks that cool the memory as well? Oh, and im not really going for bling, im more looking for the optimal performance. On that front, what 120mm fans should i use on the Rad?

 

[DFI Daishi]

Daishi, got an opinion on this?

cathar has spoken.

on a slightly related note, DD seems to be making the RBX and TDX silver versions, using the same design that they optimized for copper, and are getting the very marginal gains that you would kind of expect from using a material other than what the design was optimized for, even thought the material itself has better thermal conductivity. if you are optimizing for silver right from the get go, then you are giong to get better gains than what DD is seeing.

RaphaelVinceti: i am unaware of any pure silver GPU blocks, and any such block that included memory cooling would use rather a large block of silver, upping the raw materials cost into orbit, and the market would be so small, that production would be very expensive as well.

 

[iddqd]

I wouldn't recommend using distilled water for watercooling loops. You see, the preferred method for producing 'distilled' water in North America is deionizing the water. Which results in the effective PH of about 4. This water will eat its way through the metal parts of your loop. Much better to just use automotive antifreeze. It has similar thermal characteristics as water (since it's made mostly of water) and has all the "anticorrodants" to keep your waterblocks and raidators whole.

 

[gclg2000]

How does deionized water get a pH of 4?

 

[DFI Daishi]

I wouldn't recommend using distilled water for watercooling loops. You see, the preferred method for producing 'distilled' water in North America is deionizing the water. Which results in the effective PH of about 4. This water will eat its way through the metal parts of your loop. Much better to just use automotive antifreeze. It has similar thermal characteristics as water (since it's made mostly of water) and has all the "anticorrodants" to keep your waterblocks and raidators whole.

...................

 

[Top Nurse]

I wouldn't recommend using distilled water for watercooling loops. You see, the preferred method for producing 'distilled' water in North America is deionizing the water. Which results in the effective PH of about 4. This water will eat its way through the metal parts of your loop. Much better to just use automotive antifreeze. It has similar thermal characteristics as water (since it's made mostly of water) and has all the "anticorrodants" to keep your waterblocks and raidators whole.

You sure about that? That's pretty acidic

 

[Top Nurse]

Hmm.. All i can find for silver blocks are the CPU, anyone know of some silver GPU blocks that cool the memory as well? Oh, and im not really going for bling, im more looking for the optimal performance. On that front, what 120mm fans should i use on the Rad?

There are silver blocks available from Aqua Computer. Their English site is a disaster and hasn't been updated in a long time for God knows what reason. However, if you browse over to the German site and go into the "Shop" you can see GPU and CPU silver coolers that are available. Please note that these coolers are typically cut to order, but usually can be had in a few weeks time here in the USA.

As far as the fans go it depends on whether you want to wear hearing protectors or not.

 

[Aviddigi]

Thread jack

Cathar are you taking orders on the G4 or G5 are any in stock?

 

[Vertigo Acid]

A quick chemistry lesson on acid/base theory and equilibrium

According to the Lowery/Broensted theory, an acid as a proton donor and a base is a proton acceptor. Water is an amphoteric liquid, meaning it can act as either. It folows the following equation:

2(H20) <-> H30+ + OH-

The equilibrium constant for water is 1.0 x 10^-14, and therefore each of the products in that reaction are 1.0 x 10^-7. (that's from the equalibrium equation of Keq=[H30][OH]).

pH = -log[H+]
but also
pOH = -log[OH-]

If you do the math, the pH of pure water is indeed 7, and that makes sense because the H30 ions and OH ions are in equal concenrations, constantly exchanging protons back and forth.

Oh, and there is no difference between deionizing water and distilling water in terms of the pH; the method is different, but in the end neither of them should have any disolved electrolytes or other molecules.

 

[DFI Daishi]

i was really hoping that he would in some way back up that statement, but here is my comment:

let us just say, for a moment, that the membrane barrier in the "reverse osmosis" deionization process is good enough to get out all ions with 100% efficiency, including H3O and OH. what happens once the pureified water sits there for a while? random collisions between molecules promptly generates more H3O and OH ions, taking the system back to 1.0x10^-14 equilibrium values.

so long as you are not adding a permanent acid or base to the end product, then the pH will remain the same in the long run.

 

[RaphaelVinceti]

I would like quiet ones, or be able to control the speeds with a thermal control so that when the computer isnt under load (i.e. when im sleeping, and the computer is in stand-by) it will be near silent.

 

[DFI Daishi]

panaflo low fans are not all that loud at full speed, safely dial down pretty low, and draw little enough current that even some temperature dependant controllers can handle them.

 

[RaphaelVinceti]

Thanks Dashi. Now, I think this is my last set of questions, where, in the States, Can i get those Auqa computer silver gpu/cpu waterblocks? and are their any silver GPU Ramsinks i can use to cool the ram on the gpu? or do i have to use copper?

 

[Top Nurse]

I hope I don't get creamed again over this post.

My suggestion is to order it from Sharka Corp as they have quite a bit of stock sitting over at LAX and expect delivery imminently. They also have another big shipment coming in about 2 weeks from IT-Trade. They can order your silver blocks and have them brought over with their stock shipment. The Twinplex's take about 48 hours to go from Germany to Austria and the XT's are currently being made so I would expect delivery at the same time for the XT block. I already have a Silver XT on order. There are other distributors in North America which all have their strengths and weaknesses. See this [H] Thread for details.

Since you are going with high end equipment I would suggest that you also get an A-C Aquaero multi-function water cooing control center. It will allow you to take up to 6 temp readings and run 4 fans all at the same time. It has four different fan programs and you can tie a particular temp into a particular fan as well. Here is the Aquaero manual link. Sharka also has a couple of these units left from their current shipment.

 

[DFI Daishi]

although i can't tell for sure form the pic, the silver aqua-computer blocks all seem to use the same design as the copper units.

the design was optimized for copper, and although the better thermal conductivity of silver will most likely help somewhat, it's not going to make a big difference.

they look really pretty, and like top nurse pointed out, the limited production and individual serial numbers make them a real collectors item, but from the standpoint of performance, it will not make that big of a difference.

an example from the air cooling world: the design of the XP-90 was optimized for aluminium. the XP-90 performs well. there was a demand for an XP-90 copper edition, since users are used to being told that copper is better. the same design performed about as well in copper as it did with aluminium, because it was optimized for aluminium's properties, and didn't take advantage of copper's superior conductivity.

from cathar's lineup: the silver cascade waterblock (cascade SS) outperforms the copper cascade, by a bit. the storm G4 is a better optimized copper design, and it performs marginally better than the cascade SS. the storm G5 outperforms all of them, but it's design is optimized for silver from the start.

the best optimized silver design will most likely outperform the best optimized copper design, due to silver's better conductivity. the two designs will not be quite the same. building from a design that is well optimized for one material, using another material, will not give as good a result as optimizing for the material being used.

using a design optimized for copper to build a silver block just doesn't make a lot of sense. if they are going to to build with silver, they should make a design that will take full advantage of silver, and have done with it.

i hope that cathar will correct me if any of that is off target, as i would like to learn the truth rather than believe a falsehood, but until then this is my stand.

 

[DFI Daishi]

oh yeah, after having posted the above rant, i just want it to be clear that i am not trying to say that aqua-computer stuff isn't good, just that maybe you should go with an aqua computer rig using the copper block, rather than the silver.

 

[iddqd]

How does deionized water get a pH of 4?

I'm not sure. But I measured the pH and it was very close to 4. Then, I thought there was something in the water, so i measured the resistance accross it, and came up with a very high number. So basically, it's pure water, but it's very reactive for some reason.

A quick chemistry lesson on acid/base theory and equilibrium

According to the Lowery/Broensted theory, an acid as a proton donor and a base is a proton acceptor. Water is an amphoteric liquid, meaning it can act as either. It folows the following equation:

2(H20) <-> H30+ + OH-

The equilibrium constant for water is 1.0 x 10^-14, and therefore each of the products in that reaction are 1.0 x 10^-7. (that's from the equalibrium equation of Keq=[H30][OH]).

pH = -log[H+]
but also
pOH = -log[OH-]

If you do the math, the pH of pure water is indeed 7, and that makes sense because the H30 ions and OH ions are in equal concenrations, constantly exchanging protons back and forth.

Oh, and there is no difference between deionizing water and distilling water in terms of the pH; the method is different, but in the end neither of them should have any disolved electrolytes or other molecules.

I was thinking the same thing, y'know... I was having deposit problems with regular tap water, so I asked my mom to get me some distilled water from work. It turned out to be deionized. So i thought to myself,- what's the difference? Then I put it in my loop, and it ate its way through the metal thread on the rez, and leaked to the bottom of the case. The pins in my copper waterblock became noticably smaller. I'm using cheap automotive antifreeze now, and it's working fine.

 

[Top Nurse]

I was having deposit problems with regular tap water, so I asked my mom to get me some distilled water from work. It turned out to be deionized. So i thought to myself,- what's the difference? Then I put it in my loop, and it ate its way through the metal thread on the rez, and leaked to the bottom of the case. The pins in my copper waterblock became noticably smaller. I'm using cheap automotive antifreeze now, and it's working fine.

Uh...where does your mom work? Perhaps you didn't get the same distilled H20 that the rest of us get at the grocery store...

 

[pigpen]

I'm not sure. But I measured the pH and it was very close to 4. Then, I thought there was something in the water, so i measured the resistance accross it, and came up with a very high number. So basically, it's pure water, but it's very reactive for some reason.

I was thinking the same thing, y'know... I was having deposit problems with regular tap water, so I asked my mom to get me some distilled water from work. It turned out to be deionized. So i thought to myself,- what's the difference? Then I put it in my loop, and it ate its way through the metal thread on the rez, and leaked to the bottom of the case. The pins in my copper waterblock became noticably smaller. I'm using cheap automotive antifreeze now, and it's working fine.

distilled water can be deionized, but you get distilled water from distilling it. I think you're a little confused. Deionized water has a currnet passed through it to pull out the loose ions. Distilled is water heated to vaporization, and then condensed back to liquid.

 

[Vertigo Acid]

let us just say, for a moment, that the membrane barrier in the "reverse osmosis" deionization process is good enough to get out all ions with 100% efficiency, including H3O and OH. what happens once the pureified water sits there for a while? random collisions between molecules promptly generates more H3O and OH ions, taking the system back to 1.0x10^-14 equilibrium values.

Tis not about good the filter is; Hydronium and Hydroxide ions formed by the autoionization of water aren't around long enough to filter. That's why water doesn't conduct electricity, even thought it has those ions.

 

[Vertigo Acid]

distilled water can be deionized, but you get distilled water from distilling it. I think you're a little confused. Deionized water has a currnet passed through it to pull out the loose ions. Distilled is water heated to vaporization, and then condensed back to liquid.

Both of those are true statements. In the end, however, it doesn't matter the method by which the water is purified. H20 = H20, regardless of how you got there. If I generate some water by combustion reaction from H2 and O2, it's still water.
Distilling will remove ions, and so will deionzing it.

I'm not sure. But I measured the pH and it was very close to 4. Then, I thought there was something in the water, so i measured the resistance accross it, and came up with a very high number. So basically, it's pure water, but it's very reactive for some reason.

Question: how did you measure the pH?

 

[mwarps]

I'm not sure. But I measured the pH and it was very close to 4. Then, I thought there was something in the water, so i measured the resistance accross it, and came up with a very high number. So basically, it's pure water, but it's very reactive for some reason.

A high number, or an off-the-scale number?
Pure water has like 50Mohm/cm resistivity.

Pure water doesn't have a pH of 4, end of statement, story, chemistry lesson, etc.. Acid does, though. And some acids, for sure, will eat through metal!

Pure water isn't reactive with many things. It will screw up a cooling loop if it's made from galvanic metals.. copper/aluminium... but that's not the water's fault, that's the builder's fault for not using an anti-corrosive.

But anyway, pH doesn't mean much though in terms of nastiness. Buffered HF is pH neutral. It'll kill you through corrosive action, though. Go figure.

 

[Vertigo Acid]

But anyway, pH doesn't mean much though in terms of nastiness. Buffered HF is pH neutral. It'll kill you through corrosive action, though. Go figure.

Indeed, I always giggle a bit when I read about the "weak acid" HF. :shrug: poor biological systems

 

[DFI Daishi]

Tis not about good the filter is; Hydronium and Hydroxide ions formed by the autoionization of water aren't around long enough to filter. That's why water doesn't conduct electricity, even thought it has those ions.

the point that i was going for it that water will always get back to a pH of 7, regardless of how it is filtered distilled or whatever else, unless some permanent acid is added to it after filtering, based on the relationship indicated above my initial post.

even if the deionization process were to shift the relative concentrations of H3O and OH, in the short term, the system will come back to equilibrium unless something other than water is added to the mix.

i have sort of been wondernig if he used a chemical dye pH indicator, since in the totally un-buffered de-ionized water, even the small acidity of the indicator could swing the pH dramatically. is that what you were thinking as well?

 

[iddqd]

A high number, or an off-the-scale number?
Pure water has like 50Mohm/cm resistivity.

Pure water doesn't have a pH of 4, end of statement, story, chemistry lesson, etc.. Acid does, though. And some acids, for sure, will eat through metal!

Pure water isn't reactive with many things. It will screw up a cooling loop if it's made from galvanic metals.. copper/aluminium... but that's not the water's fault, that's the builder's fault for not using an anti-corrosive.

But anyway, pH doesn't mean much though in terms of nastiness. Buffered HF is pH neutral. It'll kill you through corrosive action, though. Go figure.

Off-scale. But contaminated water is usually a good conductor.

Both of those are true statements. In the end, however, it doesn't matter the method by which the water is purified. H20 = H20, regardless of how you got there. If I generate some water by combustion reaction from H2 and O2, it's still water.
Distilling will remove ions, and so will deionzing it.

Question: how did you measure the pH?

There's this instrument that measure pH. I dip two electrodes in the water, and press the button .

Uh...where does your mom work? Perhaps you didn't get the same distilled H20 that the rest of us get at the grocery store...

Quality control at a cleaning product company. It's high-purity water, 99.9%.

 

[Kil4Thril]

Either your meter was ready for recertification, or your water was contaminated. My meter is showing my jug-o-distilled water at 6.86, which is close enough for my uncalibrated meter. At work, we add HCl to water for the purpose of giving it to rodents (long story, but it does taste funny), and it has been shown to be corrosive while still having pH's in the 6's. Methinks your water was broken.