Should Kids Learn to Code?

You do not need any logical abilities to program. There is tons of software out there written with absolutely no logic applied. You've seen it and cursed at it.

Programming and IT are entirely different things. You can get a college degree in computer science and be completely unprepared for a job in IT. See this thread for quotes like "a degree in CS and she couldn't even install a hardrive or change BIOS settings or troubleshoot a boot up problem."
 
Yes they should, my abilities to code in various languages makes me an excellent worker for my company, i can achieve tasks in one tenth of the time it takes a non coder.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
You use a car every day. Should I make you take a car body shop class for that?

You live in a house made of wood and brick. Should I make you go to votech to become a carpenter?
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Actually in some places in Europe it's required to know some basic things. Like changing a tire and even changing oil is taught. How many Americans can honestly say that can at least change their tire? Most won't even find the jack.

Also, you don't need to go to school to use a hammer and a nail. I know a guy who's a carpenter and he dropped out of high school. Damn good one too.
 
evilsofa said:
You do not need any logical abilities to program. There is tons of software out there written with absolutely no logic applied. You've seen it and cursed at it.
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In my C++ class we were usually given an assignment. We were given an input, and expected an output. What you did to get that output was up to you. Let me tell you, there were a lot of creative students in that course. Without logic you couldn't pass the course.
Programming and IT are entirely different things. You can get a college degree in computer science and be completely unprepared for a job in IT. See this thread for quotes like "a degree in CS and she couldn't even install a hardrive or change BIOS settings or troubleshoot a boot up problem."
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I grew up on hard drive installations and changing bios settings. None of that was taught by any school, and I have a CS degree myself. I even went to Chubbs, and we worked on laptops. All they did was make sure we were dressed properly and had us reinstall Windows 2000 a few times a day. Biggest waste of time and money in my life.
 
I think they should be exposed to it. Maybe 1 mandatory programing class 9th grade or something. It should be elective after that. They'll get some exposure to it and they can decide if it's something they're interested in and want to peruse.
 
Teaching kids how to break down the process of solving complex problems into a manageable series of smaller, bite-sized solutions doesn't seem like it would be very worthwhile at all.

Yes, sarcasm. An acquired taste.

The question is not so much whether to teach kids about programming but what language to start them out with and what kind of projects kids will end up working on with that language. Ruby's probably one of the better candidates, and with well-developed frameworks, kids could be learning how to write games, web applications and even full-blown Mac apps without having to focus on memory or type complexities.
 
English class is required every year from K-12. Somewhere in elementary school the curriculum shifts almost completely away from reading to grammar rules. People wonder why so many Jr. High/High School students can't read, that's why. Studying "the rules" of a language is about as pointless as studying theology. You don't become a better reader or writer by memorizing what, say, a gerund is. It doesn't form the necessary pathways in the brain. You improve those skills by reading, writing, and receiving critiques of your writing.

I doubt schools would do any better with programming. Why not get the top programmers in the country to put together a free online curriculum for anyone who wants to learn? It would be cheaper and high school students could still do it for credit.
 
Why learn coding when there is India?

Also, you coding geniuses discussing logic and blah blah could have used a few extra economics classes. What happens when there are very few "not computer person lol" or if many more know how to code?
 
I think what they should do is teach PRACTICAL math, so yeah, throw in some programming as part of math class. I found that any math past elementary level was not really practical, and just way too complicated. Even the teachers did not really know the actual purpose of those concepts, we just had to learn them. That was my biggest issue with math, I could not find a way to apply it, so I did not really understand it. I barely passed my math courses. In fact I failed grade 11 and had to retake it. I managed to pass grade 12 even though it was via video conference. College math was not that much harder than high school math. In fact I found grade 11 was the hardest of all.

If programming and other logic aspects could be connected to these different math concepts, it would make things easier, and better, I find. Math never really clicked for me, at least not the super advanced stuff. Algebra and basic geometry is about as far as I was able to fully grasp. I think if programming had been thrown in the mix I would have understood better, as I'm sure some of those really complicated concepts may actually be used for certain things in programming. A lot of it actually leads down to geometry, which is used in game programming and what not.

Not sure if programming as a full separate course should be mandatory, but it should definitely be available. I never took a programming class until I hit college, and it was very basic level programming, never did get to play with sockets, graphics, etc.
 
wonderfield said:
Teaching kids how to break down the process of solving complex problems into a manageable series of smaller, bite-sized solutions doesn't seem like it would be very worthwhile at all.
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It's not like Science and Math problems teach you those skills.
 
i have never worked as a programer but the c++ classes i took have been the most beneficial to me.

it is very frustrating to see people younger than me use technology more then i ever did as a kid and understand so little.
 
Look guys here's the deal

Not every !

Just because we are computer geeks we find things like programming easy. But when I went to school, there were PLENTY of students who struggled with the most basics of the BASIC language.

There are plenty of teachers who refer to their students as "Mouth breathers" because they sit there with their mouth open during class. There are just trying to get them to pass the basics of life like a remedial math class. (If Joey works for $10.50/hour, how long will it take for him to make $21.00 after the government takes 1/3 in taxes) Most senior students in this country FAILED that question

And you expect them to understand the internals of computers? You guys are out of touch with reality.

We as a country struggle with just the basics of education.

The basics of life do not include programming a computer.
 
That post was supposed to start with

"Not every person is life was meant to operate complex machines"
 
DigitalGriffin said:
And you expect them to understand the internals of computers? You guys are out of touch with reality.
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You don't need to know much about computer science to be able to write in many languages. In reality, you could write C programs without having any real idea about what's going on behind the scenes during execution or without any knowledge of how a compiler works, and C is one of the lowest-level languages still in use today. Granted, you won't be able to write a very high-performance C program without a reasonably solid understanding of computer science concepts, but that's not to say you can't write simple programs in C.

I don't think anyone is asking these kids to break out x86 assembly or anything.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
Look guys here's the deal

Not every !

Just because we are computer geeks we find things like programming easy. But when I went to school, there were PLENTY of students who struggled with the most basics of the BASIC language.

There are plenty of teachers who refer to their students as "Mouth breathers" because they sit there with their mouth open during class. There are just trying to get them to pass the basics of life like a remedial math class. (If Joey works for $10.50/hour, how long will it take for him to make $21.00 after the government takes 1/3 in taxes) Most senior students in this country FAILED that question

And you expect them to understand the internals of computers? You guys are out of touch with reality.

We as a country struggle with just the basics of education.

The basics of life do not include programming a computer.
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Shrug

If idiots are going to fail, let the idiots fail.

Just because there are people who are born lazy/uncaring/idiotic doesn't mean we shouldn't teach the material.
 
wonderfield said:
You don't need to know much about computer science to be able to write in many languages. In reality, you could write C programs without having any real idea about what's going on behind the scenes during execution or without any knowledge of how a compiler works, and C is one of the lowest-level languages still in use today. Granted, you won't be able to write a very high-performance C program without a reasonably solid understanding of computer science concepts, but that's not to say you can't write simple programs in C.

I don't think anyone is asking these kids to break out x86 assembly or anything.
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Yep, so with their current level of reading and math skills you can teach them

10 Print "THIS CLASS SUX. I DON'T NEED NO EDMUKATION"

yep that was useful wasn't it?
 
DigitalGriffin said:
Yep, so with their current level of reading and math skills you can teach them

10 Print "THIS CLASS SUX. I DON'T NEED NO EDMUKATION"

yep that was useful wasn't it?
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Your posts are merely further evidence that the standard of education in the US needs to be improved.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
Yep, so with their current level of reading and math skills you can teach them 10 Print "THIS CLASS SUX. I DON'T NEED NO EDMUKATION"
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Take care not to confuse your own ability to grasp simple concepts (or lack thereof) with the abilities of others.
 
I originally learned to program using IDL, don't know why the teacher wanted to cripple us with some pay-for-programming language but he did. Fortunately the basics of logic arguments are the same, its simply the little variances of how the codes understands what you type that requires a bit of learning.
 
khanable said:
Shrug

If idiots are going to fail, let the idiots fail.

Just because there are people who are born lazy/uncaring/idiotic doesn't mean we shouldn't teach the material.
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So basically you're condemning half the nations students to automatic failure because you're making them take a class in programming computers, when all they want to do is become a carpenter, or mechanic, or brick layer, or plumber.

To write anything useful in computers you have to use variables. That's a concept a lot of students today struggle with in BASIC math class.

Without a strong math background, you can't
1) Write video games
2) Write business applications
3) Write scientific applicaitons/simulations

Without reading skills, you can't understand computer programming manuals. A large amount of computer programming today requires you to do the research yourself about how things are done. (Enterprise 2.0) The majority of today's kids struggle with basic reading comprehension.

Just because it's easy for us (I started programming at 8, and have been doing it professionally for 20 years), doesn't mean it's an easy concept for the rest of the world.

I have TRIED to teach programming to several students. Some just get it. Others struggle. Some are made for it, others are not.
 
wonderfield said:
Take care not to confuse your own ability to grasp simple concepts (or lack thereof) with the abilities of others.
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I'm not quoting my own abilities. I have degrees in Astrospace engineering and Computer Science. I'm quoting statistics from the government based on standardized testing. The government says they aren't capable.
 
Ashbringer said:
Actually in some places in Europe it's required to know some basic things. Like changing a tire and even changing oil is taught. How many Americans can honestly say that can at least change their tire? Most won't even find the jack.

Also, you don't need to go to school to use a hammer and a nail. I know a guy who's a carpenter and he dropped out of high school. Damn good one too.
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Wasn't taught, but its easy enough if you rtfm. Of course, with the new CAFE standards, this would likely become obsolete as manufacturers put in a can of fix-a-flat or use run-flats by default so they can save on the weight of a tire.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
So basically you're condemning half the nations students to automatic failure because you're making them take a class in programming computers, when all they want to do is become a carpenter, or mechanic, or brick layer, or plumber.

To write anything useful in computers you have to use variables. That's a concept a lot of students today struggle with in BASIC math class.

Without a strong math background, you can't
1) Write video games
2) Write business applications
3) Write scientific applicaitons/simulations

Without reading skills, you can't understand computer programming manuals. A large amount of computer programming today requires you to do the research yourself about how things are done. (Enterprise 2.0) The majority of today's kids struggle with basic reading comprehension.

Just because it's easy for us (I started programming at 8, and have been doing it professionally for 20 years), doesn't mean it's an easy concept for the rest of the world.

I have TRIED to teach programming to several students. Some just get it. Others struggle. Some are made for it, others are not.
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Yes, I'd rather see half the nation fail out of high school than to see them all graduate and go into the work force being a bunch of blubbering idiots.

It is not my fault that kids do not put in the effort to learn math or english. They're not difficult subjects by any stretch of the imagination -- kids just don't want to learn them.

And if they don't want to learn, fine, fail their asses and let them struggle to find a job for the rest of their lives.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
Without a strong math background, you can't
...
Without reading skills, you can't understand
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Probably more time needs to be spent on it? Fit that on the schedule somehow; either by expending the schedule, or dropping other less important stuff.
 
khanable said:
Yes, I'd rather see half the nation fail out of high school than to see them all graduate and go into the work force being a bunch of blubbering idiots.

It is not my fault that kids do not put in the effort to learn math or english. They're not difficult subjects by any stretch of the imagination -- kids just don't want to learn them.

And if they don't want to learn, fine, fail their asses and let them struggle to find a job for the rest of their lives.
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Yes, because becoming a host at a bed & breakfast requires programming skills, and no storng math or vocabular skills.

I guess the same could be said for a dancer, singer, plumber, reporter, author, coach, radio host, railroad engineer, truck driver, warehouse manager, property manager, etc etc etc.

Who needs basic survival skills like learning how to do basic math for bills/checking & your checking account, when you can write

10 PRINT 0, "I AM SO SMART!"

Emphasize the basics. That will make computer programming easier and more likely to be picked up.

Case in point. Over in China they empahsized math skills for years. They can do math faster by hand then we can with our calculators. Yet computers are considered luxury as 50% of the country is agrian by nature. Yet they still turn out more engineers, mathematicians, doctors, and computer programmers by % per capitia then us by far.
 
No, at least not in most places in the United States (you know, like, the 95%). Kids are too spoiled, undisciplined, and lazy. They want to see end results immediately without actually doing the work.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
Yes, because becoming a host at a bed & breakfast requires programming skills, and no storng math or vocabular skills.

I guess the same could be said for a dancer, singer, plumber, reporter, author, coach, radio host, railroad engineer, truck driver, warehouse manager, property manager, etc etc etc.

Who needs basic survival skills like learning how to do basic math for bills/checking & your checking account, when you can write

10 PRINT 0, "I AM SO SMART!"

Emphasize the basics. That will make computer programming easier and more likely to be picked up.

Case in point. Over in China they empahsized math skills for years. They can do math faster by hand then we can with our calculators. Yet computers are considered luxury as 50% of the country is agrian by nature. Yet they still turn out more engineers, mathematicians, doctors, and computer programmers by % per capitia then us by far.
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What a silly argument. Gym class doesn't help people become electrical engineers. Art class doesn't help people become lawyers. History class doesn't help people become mechanics. See what I did there? That argument is stupid.

They already teach the basics. Throw in some programming. Those who cannot swim will sink, and you know what? Screw 'em. Don't put in the effort, don't get out of school.
 
im going to say yes i started with LOGO back in 2nd grade and BASIC in 6th why not C or C# in highschool?
 
khanable said:
What a silly argument. Gym class doesn't help people become electrical engineers. Art class doesn't help people become lawyers. History class doesn't help people become mechanics. See what I did there? That argument is stupid.

They already teach the basics. Throw in some programming. Those who cannot swim will sink, and you know what? Screw 'em. Don't put in the effort, don't get out of school.
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In many ways you remind me of that board of education school commisioner that wanted to give iPads to every student. These are elementry school students mind you in lower income neighborhoods. "Put a computer in their hands. It will be great! Look at all you can do with it! It will teach them so much. And it's a bargain at $599!"

As you lack any statistics, or credible sources to back your side of the argument this argument is moot. I think at this point we will agree to disagree.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
In many ways you remind me of that board of education school commisioner that wanted to give iPads to every student. These are elementry school students mind you in lower income neighborhoods. "Put a computer in their hands. It will be great! Look at all you can do with it! It will teach them so much. And it's a bargain at $599!"

As you lack any statistics, or credible sources to back your side of the argument this argument is moot. I think at this point we will agree to disagree.
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In many ways you remind me of George W. "Screw it, just give them a grade and let them through!".

You're such a purveyor of statistics and credible sources yourself! Though I fail to see any reason what-so-ever that I need to provide statistics and credible sources when I made no statements that require them?

And I will not agree to disagree: I will agree that you are wrong.
 
Teaching kids math, great idea. Mandatory programming, dumb idea. Just because they teach anatomy, doesn't mean you should force them to learn to perform surgery. Not everyone can be a doctor. I'm a programmer by trade, and the other guy who said it is right, not everyone is destined for IT. My wife and I started out in CS together in college. After two semesters, she realized it wasn't for her, it made absolutely no sense to her. There's a reason that many CS programs have a 75% drop out rate in the first semester. Now, offering programming as an elective, that is a great idea. Unfortunately though, 90% of what they'll learn will be obsolete by the time the could possibly graduate. In fact, they say that by the time you finish a 4 year CS degree, almost everything you learn your first two years will be obsolete by the time you graduate. That's depressing.
 
Since we are transitioning to a service industry, I think web-design would be a very practical course requirement. Certainly more practical than calculus at the high school level.
 
28 years old
-Got taught Qbasic in elementary school
-Tried to learn harder stuff, didn't like it
-Used logic skills from qbasic (and a multitude of other sources) as a basis for many decisions in life
-Doing ok for myself today
-Reading thread about people nitpicking education decisions
-Realize that this simple programming could be considered fun at 8 years old and incorporates lessons that are valuable in any walk of life without the child being bored with dry math.
-Fondly remember playing Oregon Trail after finishing all assignments in the computer lab.
-I have died of Dysentery
 
khanable said:
So.. a programming class. Got it.
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Logic is not programming...this is coming from a mathematician. I am specifically interested in computational problems. That doesn't make me right by default, but feel my reasons do.

What most engineers and hopefully computer scientists are exposed to in terms of math is more or less not what I consider math. Most working mathematicians do not 'do' anything resembling calculus, or diff eq, or what have you. What we do is derive theorem X and prove. That is what math is...an exercise in logic.

I would say that where computer science uses logic is in its fundamentals such as the theory of computation, but you could also argue that that is math.

Nobody I know that writes any code, actually sits down and tries to do a tree diagram, or actually prove their code does what they claim. Maybe there is a world of coders I don't know about?

Does anybody ever write in their comments:

Premises X, Y, and Z

Claim: If X, Y and Z are true, then function do_stuff(var x, var y, var z) will return whatever.

proof: Suppose X, Y and Z are true.

lots of words...

conclusion...

No! Nobody does that with code.

But that is what logic is. It is a formal method that makes our thoughts and ideas clear and explicit and allows for no unchecked inferential steps. If coders did this, there should in principle be no mistakes in any program. But that is not really a practical way to write code.
 
I doubt anyone does anything like that, but there are parallels in unit testing and test-driven development, the latter especially. Write a test which will pass if the output of a routine returns the desired results, then write the routine such that it passes the test. The unit test is a means for a programmer to prove that their code does what they claim it does, and good test-driven development practice leads to greater code quality.

Not quite the same thing as defining premises and proofs, but it's fairly similar.
 
nah, kids are so stupid in the stuff they already lear, we dont need to force them to learn something 95% of them will never use. i love tech and am pretty technical, but i dont know shit about coding. its just never come up. a good math curriculum can teach anything non-coding-specific that coding can teach. (logic, problem solving, etc)
 
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