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SFF Questions.

A

abudhu

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Messages
1,653
Hi all.
1) Just signed up today, but long time reader of HARDOCP.

2) Because I feel it has not been addressed well enough...

3) Because I am interested in getting one...sometime.

So with all that said, here are my plentiful questions to ask.


1) Tower vs. SFF. Why change? Advantage/Disadvantage.
--From what I gather now, Advantage would be a space saver, but I see numerous disadvantages as lack of upgradeability as well as slow porting to the smaller sizes needed for it.

2) Why does a SFF only require 200-250W?
--I am not sure I understand this...Is it simply because of it small size? The parts are all smaller thus requiring less energy? I don't understand fully why a Mid-Tower would require around 300-500W while these SFF computers do not.

3) Which is the BEST SFF?
--I have read numerous threads etc, hailing the Shuttle brand, but are there any viable competitors?

4) Gen Question: If indeed (if argued) SFF computers are better, why then are large manufactures (i.e Dell/Gateway) not making the change?
--More for my own knowledge, simply because I want to know. Looking at the specs from Shuttle, it looks as if I can get a AMD 64 3500+ With a Radeon 9800Pro + 512MB etc etc for 1500. Why then is its Mid-Tower counterpart slightly more expensive? In any case, if these cases are better, and perhaps cheaper, wouldn't it be wise for large manufactures to dump large cases in favor of these?

5) Going along with that ^^ sort of...The peripherals needed (Dvd/Floopy) are these specially designed for SFF?
--How can a normal CD/DVD/Floppy/Hard Drive fit in these cases? Are they designed differently? And it goes along with 4 since, if they are indeed smaller, (perhaps also requiring less power) why then don't manufactures use these instead?

6) Where can pieces be purchased for SFF computers? (i.e Upgrades? Peripherals (Dvd/Floppy))
-- I know the MB are smaller, etc etc, but where would be a good place to start.
I already use all the known ones, pricewatch/newegg/monarch. Those good stuff.

7) How do people with normal Mid-Towers say they want to put it in a SFF and people tell them it’s possible?
--I don't see how this can work, since MB's for these are made special (made to fit) while a normal MB would be too large....

8) Cooling seems to be a BIG issue concerning these PC's. What’s your take?
--Worth it to buy it and get a few more fans?

9) What is the Primary use for SFF vs. normal PC's? Shuttle seems to supply Home/Business/Media/Gaming.
--If this is the case...then once again, why aren't people making the change? Is it simply because it has not become "mainstream" yet. In any case I doubt it would, since like I have been asking, big name dealers have yet to pick up on it.
Anyways, my real question, I suppose as I thought was, I figure Towers are used more for upgradeability/longevity/Simply the standard. What would be the "use" of a SFF?

10) How/Where can I buy a CASE. Not a Barebones system. Without anything? I just want the SFF Case.

11) Finally is modding these cases easy?
--Simply for my amusement.

I want to make my own, but If I must I'll purchase it from Shuttle (or a better one if someone tells me) and then upgrade it as I see fit.
My "Dream" Computer as of right now is a
AMD 64 3400+
1GB RAM
60GB Hard Drives x 2
GeForce 6000 Family (Any will do)

Thanks for your help.
 
1. Main reason in going to SFF for most people is the simple reduction in amount of case their is while still being able to have high end hardware. ATX does have its benefits, such as ease of use, installation and expandibility. But and the same time, its alot of empty space that Shuttle simply deemed a waste and out of style and thus created the XPS series. SFF"s are also much quieter for the most part in comparison to ATX systems which is a big reason to alot of people.

But as a tradeoff, you do loose your ability to upgrade as with Shuttles and expand. The mobo is integrated with the chassis itself and shuttle does not offer seperate mobo's, they always come with the case, PSU and mobo for the most part.

This is pretty much the typical upgrade example as a SFF owner. You have a nice Socket A shuttle thats been running well and fast and you love it dearly. Oh look, shuttle just came out with a new G5 Athlon 64 939 pin model. Wooops, we can't just buy the mobo from shuttle as the interior layout has changed as well as a needing a higher grade integrated PSU to run it. Our options? We got none. Your gonna have to fork it over and buy an entirely new Shuttle to upgrade.

2. Theres only so much room in a SFF, as such, the PSU needs to be squashed pretty good to fit inside a small chasiss. Less room means less room for ciruitry to allow for higher wattage PSU's. Shuttle PSU"s are however some of the highest quality in the industry and have very stable volts and amps on their rails, even better then some higher wattage ATX PSU's.

Once again, the small nature of SFF limits your ability to the hardware you can put inside. As there is a total max # of components that one can put in a SFF case for the most part, SFF makers don't need to try to cram in huge wattage PSU's as SFF are designed to run max with pretty much the following:

1. CD/DVD drive
2. 2 HDD's
3. Video card
4. CPU
5. Mobo
6. Add on PCI card

That in itself doesn't require a huge amount of wattage to run. As long as the amp load remains constant on the lines for stability, SFF PSU's can have lower total wattages

With ATX specc cases, the PSU' manufactuers have NO idea what kind of equipment people will have in their cases, as ATX cases range from very tiny ATX cases to HUGE server towers. As such, ATX PSU manufactuers must make PSU's capable of providing stable power for twin CPU's, 4 HDD's or more, multiple CD drives, tuner cards, SCSI drives. ect...ect...

3. I could start a flame war with this, but by the numbers, Shuttle is the head hancho of SFF"s, owning approx 60% of the market. Biotec, Asus, MSI, ABIT and others are jumping onto the SFF wagon with their own ideas, both good and bad. People like the other brands for their own reasons, but for the most part, Shuttle is king and looks to remain that way in the near future.


4. I am not familar with the inner workings of Dells design and PR department, but I theroize that because of SFF's small nature, it costs much more in comparison to ATX machines to build such machines. Shuttle XPS's are more expensive for the most part in comparison if you buy the ATX equivalent of a PSU, mobo and case. Why? Smaller parts require much more higher grade equipment manufactuering, fault tolerances, longer engineering times, more complex circuitry layouts, higher grade components ect...ect..

SFF's small size also make it more prone to overheating in situations. But the main reason is that Dell and other PC makers have is they don't want to ship computers that cannot be upgraded much to meet consumers demands. Though SFF"s are somewhat upgradable, they don't hold the flexibility that a ATX style case does.

However, Dell, HP, IBM are all VERY aware that people are sick of big cases and are noticing the market demand for small yet powerful machiens. As such, they are making smaller, thin line and skinnier desktops that you can find on their websites. Each company simply has its own idea, dream and marketing plan of how to make their smaller
computers.
Retail PC manufacters are well aware of the demand for small form factor PC's, they just do it in their own way to maintain profit, relaibility, ease of use, consumer demand and expections...ect..ect..

5. Almost all SFF's use the regular specc CD/DVD sized drives that have been around since the dawn of CDROM's. This keeps the design and manufacturing costs down as well as allow the consumers to easily put in the drive of their choice. Using properitery sized CDROMs' such as laptop drivers, would only drive the costs higher, reduce the flexiblity and upgradability of the SFF further. Laptops drives are known to have a much higher failure rates. *works on laptops for a living, this is proven time and time again*

6. Seeings how most SFF"s are pretty properitery in their design, you get the case, MB and PSU in one package. Though companies like Antec and ASUS offer models like the Aria, finding m-atx boards of current CPU and memory technologies is very slim and dont' offer much flexiblity in choices or upgrading.

Which goes back to our big downside of SFF's, you are pretty limited in what you can put in the machine motherboard wise unlike ATX where you have options galore

7. I don't understand the question.

8. Another reality check, SFF's run hotter then ATX cases, its just the way it is. Due to their small size, they lack the room to allow for large amounts of airflow. With the advent of the higher end hardware of Video cards, CPU's and even HDD's, SFF's need clever ways to keep all this cool. Shuttles G series case use a integrated ICE system that cools the CPU and internal system in one shot. Its effective, efficent and even allows for some overclocking in most cases.

The newer P series from shuttle cools the CPU, HDD"s and case seperately using very cool and efficent seperate fans systems. SFF"s also have special air sockets around the case both side panel and bottom to draw air in to cool add on video cards and extra HDD's. Though most SFF's size prevents dual slot video cards like the 6800 Ultra to fit, people have 6800GT and X800's running perfectly fine in their shuttle cases.

Though they run warmer, many many people have had great success with stable and fast SFF"s and many shuttle models can overclock really well with stock cooling solutions, though people DO mod them to give them a bit more breathing room.

The engineers who design the SFF's are well aware of the temp ranges and loads that the systems will go through. As such, they make sure that that the systems will run stable and fast in a variety of different tempature conditions and hardware configurations. They wouldn't release a product that has thermal stability problems for many obvious reasons.

9. Boils down to personal preference and computer needs. Many people like you said, fall into the media center, MP3 station, HTCP and light gaming area and as such, they can get all they want in a very nice, small, quiet fast package. Others demand much more headroom for overclocking, expandiblity, airflow for higher end video cards, expansion for add on cards of all sorts, or simply don't give a damn about noise and size of cases.

That being said, the SFF grows continually at a very large rate as people drop their ugly and large ATX cases realizing they can get most if not all they had in their ATX cases in a SFF instead. Others, just simply have their reasons to stick with the proven and tested ATX world.

10. Your pretty limited, only a few places make SFF' cases barebone. The next problem is finding a mobo to not only fit the case, but to meet your hardware demands. As I stated, MSI, ASUS and Antec are one of the few companies that make empy SFF"s cases. Most others have integrated mobo, PSU's and case.

Here is some info to get you started.

Antec Aria

Asus Terminator

Asus T2

MSI Mega

BioStar Ideq

11. Small as they are, where there is a computer case, there is a modding way. Check out the Shuttle mod gallery here to get an idea of what people are doing to get a little extra outa their little boxes.

Shuttle Mod Gallery
 
abudhu said:
1) Tower vs. SFF. Why change? Advantage/Disadvantage.
--From what I gather now, Advantage would be a space saver, but I see numerous disadvantages as lack of upgradeability as well as slow porting to the smaller sizes needed for it.
Click to expand...
Yeah... it saves space. But also it comes down to what you really need to have in your system. When I realized that I only really needed one optical drive and one hard drive in my system, the SFF became a viable option. Not sure what you mean by slow porting to smaller sizes.

2) Why does a SFF only require 200-250W?
--I am not sure I understand this...Is it simply because of it small size? The parts are all smaller thus requiring less energy? I don't understand fully why a Mid-Tower would require around 300-500W while these SFF computers do not.
Click to expand...
I used to have a full size tower with 2 optical drives and 6 hard drives among other numerous other usual components... That needed a 300w power supply. The system in my sig runs fine with just 200w.

3) Which is the BEST SFF?
--I have read numerous threads etc, hailing the Shuttle brand, but are there any viable competitors?
Click to expand...
Yes, but none of them have more experience with engineering SFF systems than Shuttle.

4) Gen Question: If indeed (if argued) SFF computers are better, why then are large manufactures (i.e Dell/Gateway) not making the change?
Click to expand...
I dunno about this one... Probably just a matter of time before they do.

--More for my own knowledge, simply because I want to know. Looking at the specs from Shuttle, it looks as if I can get a AMD 64 3500+ With a Radeon 9800Pro + 512MB etc etc for 1500. Why then is its Mid-Tower counterpart slightly more expensive? In any case, if these cases are better, and perhaps cheaper, wouldn't it be wise for large manufactures to dump large cases in favor of these?
Click to expand...
What you are seeing is how much more the regular size case, power supply, motherboard, and heatsink would cost above the Shuttle SN95G5. The CPU, video card, RAM, and drives could be the same.

5) Going along with that ^^ sort of...The peripherals needed (Dvd/Floopy) are these specially designed for SFF?
Click to expand...
No... You still use regular sized peripherals. The reason SFF systems are small is that you will only be able to fit a few of them in the system.

6) Where can pieces be purchased for SFF computers? (i.e Upgrades? Peripherals (Dvd/Floppy))
-- I know the MB are smaller, etc etc, but where would be a good place to start.
I already use all the known ones, pricewatch/newegg/monarch. Those good stuff.
Click to expand...
Newegg and Monarch are good places to start. Be careful of some of the retailers you find through pricewatch though. Always check the reveiws of retailers through resellerratings.com before you buy.

7) How do people with normal Mid-Towers say they want to put it in a SFF and people tell them it’s possible?
--I don't see how this can work, since MB's for these are made special (made to fit) while a normal MB would be too large....
Click to expand...
They are just moving thier hard drive, optical drive, cpu, and memory to the new SFF system... not the old motherboard.

8) Cooling seems to be a BIG issue concerning these PC's. What’s your take?
--Worth it to buy it and get a few more fans?
Click to expand...
Not really an issue in my experience. But, I wouldn't try to put more than one hard drive in a SFF. (I have my second hard drive in an external firewire/usb enclosure)

9) What is the Primary use for SFF vs. normal PC's? Shuttle seems to supply Home/Business/Media/Gaming.
--If this is the case...then once again, why aren't people making the change? Is it simply because it has not become "mainstream" yet. In any case I doubt it would, since like I have been asking, big name dealers have yet to pick up on it.
Anyways, my real question, I suppose as I thought was, I figure Towers are used more for upgradeability/longevity/Simply the standard. What would be the "use" of a SFF?
Click to expand...
They are appropriate for any use, unless you absolutely need to have more card slots or drive bays than are available in a SFF system. One of the reasons some people are hesitant to adopt the SFF is that they have a misconception that they need tons of drive bays and pci card slots. The truth is, most people only need one hard drive and one optical drive. And with all the components that are now integrated on the motherboard (sound, ethernet, usb, firewire), most don't need any pci slots at all.

10) How/Where can I buy a CASE. Not a Barebones system. Without anything? I just want the SFF Case.
Click to expand...
Many of these cases are made specifically for certain motherboards. That is why they are sold together.

11) Finally is modding these cases easy?
--Simply for my amusement.
Click to expand...
http://gallery.sfftech.com/

I want to make my own, but If I must I'll purchase it from Shuttle (or a better one if someone tells me) and then upgrade it as I see fit.
My "Dream" Computer as of right now is a
AMD 64 3400+
1GB RAM
60GB Hard Drives x 2
GeForce 6000 Family (Any will do)
Click to expand...
You can get all of this at Newegg... even the Shuttle:

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=56-101-457&depa=1

Although I would suggest just one big 120gb (or larger) hard drive instead of 2, and just be sure you get a video card that fits in the SFF case.
 
 
ItsTooHot said:
I don't know why it hasn't been mentioned, but Dell, Gateway, HP and IBM all make SFF systems. They just don't make "cube" type SFF systems.


http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/featured_desktop3?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

[edit - Gateway now makes this instead of an SFF]
http://products.gateway.com/products/gconfig/prodhmseries.asp?seg=hm&gcseries=prf5

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF05a/12454-64287-89301-321881-f9-352427.html

http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/s...=1&langId=-1&dualCurrId=73&categoryId=2580523
Click to expand...


I did mention it silly, read my answer to that question :p
 
Thanks, everyone.

Very informative. *Rubs Chin* Very informative indeed.
 
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