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SFF New Build...Advice...

S

scp89

n00b
Joined
Sep 17, 2005
Messages
30
I'm looking at building a SFF machine...open to any and all suggestions...High end gaming is not really a big concern right away (ie I can do possibly onboard video to start with as long as I can add a nice video card down the road)....Ideally I'd like to be able to get some HD DVR functionality out of this if at all possible at some point...I'm open to just about anything...but like I said eventually I will be adding a nice graphics card (pci-e...) and I'd be really interested in this doubling as some type of HTPC to some extent if possible...right now I have about $700 to spend...1 gig of memory is fine to start and a 200 gig 7200rpm HD is ok by me...I can upgrade those in the future...onboard audio would be ok as long as it has spdif functionality...

is this possible at all? or should I look into building just a plain HTPC? (heck is HD DVR functionality even affordable???)

feel free to post links to components/prices/reviews etc etc...

Much Thanks...
 
I'm a fan of Shuttle's ST20G5. $100 rebate on that should still be going, which makes it CHEAP. Plus, the onboard video has a DVI output, which makes LCDs happy.
 
i'll check that out as a start..I found it on newegg with that rebate..makes it tempting...then I read the review here on this board..and it did nothing but bash that system...has there been updates to this system since the review??? if not I'm very hesitant...the sn25p seems to be everyone's choice that I can see...
 
scp89 said:
i'll check that out as a start..I found it on newegg with that rebate..makes it tempting...then I read the review here on this board..and it did nothing but bash that system...has there been updates to this system since the review??? if not I'm very hesitant...the sn25p seems to be everyone's choice that I can see...
Click to expand...

Yes, a LOT of updates.

Basically, the beta BIOS for it that was reviewed here and on several other sites REALLY SUCKED HARDCORE. Unstable, slow, etc. Shuttle has made monstrous leaps and bounds with the BIOS updates, and on the v18 (I'm running right now), everything is smooth as you'd wish.

Indeed, a member of the XPC community even made bootable CD ISOs for the purpose of updating the BIOS. Check out the last link on that page - 'MultiBIOS' - or just the ISO for the ST20G5. Just burn either image to a CD. Then, when you buy your XPC, just put it all together as you normally would. Instead of installing anything else, however, just pop that CD in and flash it to the latest BIOS you want to use (some people on SFFTech's forums prefer the v16, but I'm happy with v18), and proceed from there.

Do NOT try to use it without the v16 or v18 BIOS. You WILL hate the box.
 
much thanks...I will definitely give that a look then..will the power supply in the ST20G5 be able to handle say 2 sata drives and a PCI-Express video card in the future? or would I have to upgrade the PSU if I ever decided for a pci-e video card in future?.

can any normal DVD burner fit? or do I have to get Shuttle Brand DVD??

anybody else other suggestions??

this one looked interesting as well...
http://global.shuttle.com/Product/Barebone/SB83G5M.asp

my concern is that when I checked into HDTV tuner cards it says I'll need a regular TV card as well...is that correct?? if so does that rule out HDTV PVR functionality from one of these cases???
 
here are two systems I'm looking at:

System #1 AMD Shuttle ST20G5
http://global.shuttle.com/Product/Barebone/ST20G5.asp

1 Shuttle ST20G5 AMD Socket 939 AMD Athlon 64 FX/Athlon 64/Sempron ATI XPRESS 200 Barebone - Retail
Model #:ST20G5
$349.00
$100.00 Mail-in Rebate
($249)

1 NEC Silver IDE DVD Burner Model ND-3550A - OEM
Model #:ND-3550A SV OEM
$37.99

1 CORSAIR XMS 2GB (2 x 1GB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200) Unbuffered Dual Channel Kit System Memory Model Twinx2048-3200c2pt - Retail
Model #:Twinx2048-3200c2pt
$220.00
$40.00 Mail-in Rebate
($180)

1 AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Manchester 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Dual Core Processor Model ADA3800BVBOX - Retail
Model #:ADA3800BVBOX
$295.00

SubTotal: $901.99
MINUS -140.00 rebate
Total: 761.99

or
System #2: P4 Shuttle System SB83G5M
http://global.shuttle.com/Product/Barebone/SB83G5M.asp

Shuttle XPC SB83G5M P4/Celeron Barebone System Retail
$339.99

Liteon SOHW-1693S 16X Dual Layer DVD±RW Drive (Black)
$46.75

Corsair TWINX2048-3200C2PT 2GB Kit DDR400 XMS3200 Memory w/Platinum Heat Spreader Retail
$220.00
$40 Rebate
($180)

Intel Pentium® 4 630 Processor Prescott 3.0GHz, 800MHz FSB, Socket 775, 2MB Cache Retail
$183.88

Total about 750 after rebate


Which sounds better??? any recomended changes??? will the power supplies on these handle a future upgrade to say a PCI-E video Card?? while running 1 or 2 SATA HD's? and what about the HDTV PVR question referenced above?
 
Not sure on the HDTV question, but so much is up in their air regarding HD at the moment (HDCP, which monitors could support it, which cards do and don't, what will be viewable in HD, or what will be downsampled, etc), I've really steered clear of it for the most part. By early '07, it should be more standardized across the board.

As to the optical drive - Shuttle cases fit standard sized drives. I've not seen a drive that *wouldn't* fit in an XPC. In fact, I'm using that very NEC drive you listed above in my ST20G5. It's a good match - although, again, that's a drive you will need to update the firmware on. It didn't rip properly in EAC until I did that, but once patched up, everything is happy as a clam.

There shouldn't be any problem with the power supply and two SATA drives and a PCI-E card. Shuttle's PSUs are INCREDIBLY efficient, and use multiple rails with solid amps per line. Back on the older 230w PSUs, people were running Raptors with 6800 Ultras with no problems - and that's a pretty power hungry video card.

I can't comment on the Intel system you spec'd out above, other than the obvious observation that an X2 '3800+' is going to be a LOT faster than a Prescot 3.0ghz in any kind of remotely multitasking situation - and it should run much cooler, as well.
 
I very nearly went with the st20g5 for the sff in my sig...But the ideq was $260 refurb on newegg. It has optical in/out and the nf4 chipset, which is why I ultimately went with it over the st20g5 as in Nov. people were still reporting some problems with the shuttle, and for less money it was a no-brainer. However, in light of it now costing $249 and the apparent fixing of the issues, it'd be a toss-up and the on-board video is nice as you won't have to get a vid card right away...I may be adding an hdtv tuner, but unsure if it'd be worth it with the amount of tv I watch. It fits 2 sata drives, I have a dual layer dvd burner and the rest of the stuff in the sig in it now, no heat or power related problems (which people always seem to ask about in these setups). The only thing is the ideq o/c's relatively well for an sff, I've gotten 2.5ghz out of my x2 3800...Not sure what the st20g5's do o/c wise.
 
thx guys..this web site never lets me down...always good advice to be had here...
 
bobzdar said:
The only thing is the ideq o/c's relatively well for an sff, I've gotten 2.5ghz out of my x2 3800...Not sure what the st20g5's do o/c wise.
Click to expand...

That IS a factor, for sure - one I forget to mention.

The ST20G5...overclocks okay, but nothing great. With the same CPU and ram in my previous SFF - a Jetway A210GDMS-Pro in an Aspire X-QPACK - I hit DDR500 and 2.5ghz on the CPU (Winchester '3200+').

In the ST20G5, 240FSB is the ceiling so far, although that still gets me DDR480 and 2.4ghz.

Overall, I guess I considered it roughly a wash. It's not as high, of course...but it's still pretty close. And it runs cooler and quieter and looks MUCH more sleek.

But it IS something to consider. (FWIW on an SN25P, the max FSB I could hit was 233...but others have gone higher. On the other hand, many people on SFFTech can't break 235 on the ST20G5, where I'm Prime95 stable at 240. As with all parts, it's really luck of the draw on how far you can overclock anything.)
 
I've alway been an Intel man on my prior PC builds....on my AMD system above that processor will work in that Shuttle system correct? the specs list AMD Athlon 64x...but this is a AMD Athlon 64x2...from what I can tell this will work...but before I buy I wanted to make sure as I want my first delve into AMD to be positive....OC'ing is not a big concern for me..so I'm leaning towards the Shuttle case and the system with the AMD processor...
 
Yup, an X2 will work fine in an ST20G5. So will a dual-core Opteron (some have gone that way due to the occasional better deal).
 
do I need to purchase something like arctic silver thermal paste for AMD processor if it is the retail package? or does the Heatsink/Fan etc already come with that or maybe it has some type thermal pad on the bottom of the heatsink already similar to the old P4 Retail package...
 
You can get oem as the shuttle has the hsf/thermal compound in the package. If you get retail, you won't use the hsf that comes with the processor anyway...

I should add, if you want to o/c the as5 could help some, otherwise just use the stuff that comes with the shuttle. I didn't use anything fancy with my setup (just the crap that came with it) and it o/c's pretty well and doesn't overheat at all...
 
I'm a fan of AS5, but 'just because'. Bob's right, naturally - the XPC comes with thermal goop, and it has a built-in CPU heatsink. Indeed, you couldn't even use the retail HSF if you wanted to - the chasis just isn't built for that. Everything you need for an OEM CPU to work is in the box.

That SAID...I'd still recommend retail. AMD's OEM warranty is (IIRC) only 90 days, whereas you get a 3-year warranty on their retail parts. Given the trivial difference in price (when there even IS any), it's well worth it to go retail. Make sure you save the retail HSF, though - you need to return both it and the CPU for warranty replacement.
 
The CAS latency does not matter as the other timings, which are both the same on those sticks.

So I'd just go with the cheaper of the two.
 
ok I got the system etc...the fan is load as crap...it seems to be running full force...How accurate is the bios cpu temp etc? what should the cpu temp be???
 
scp89 said:
ok I got the system etc...the fan is load as crap...it seems to be running full force...How accurate is the bios cpu temp etc? what should the cpu temp be???
Click to expand...

The BIOS CPU temp is dead-on accurate, as far as I've seen.

'Stock', your CPU temps on an X2 '4200+' should be around 40C or so under load. More like 30C idle.
 
bios shows temp of 80....everything is installed right.... fans are on... etc

where is this cool and quiet setting in the bios???
Do I have to adjust some things in the Frequency/Voltage control section of the bios?

how can I test to see if it is the cpu or mb etc?
 
scp89 said:
bios shows temp of 80....everything is installed right.... fans are on... etc

where is this cool and quiet setting in the bios???
Do I have to adjust some things in the Frequency/Voltage control section of the bios?

how can I test to see if it is the cpu or mb etc?
Click to expand...

CPU temp of 80 - if not overclocked - is way, WAY too high.

Hell, that's WAY too high even for an overclocked system! That's why the fan is running full-tilt, because the CPU is FAR too hot.

Better check the mounting of the HSF on the CPU...make sure you've cleaned both the bottom of the HSF and top of the CPU with rubbing alcohol (99%) and there is no dirt or film in there. Remember not to use too much thermal paste, too.
 
this is some crazy arse stuff...the system shipped with bios from 3-05 on it....when I use any of the newest bios files...the fan runs full tilt and cpu shows temp of 80degrees...but when I use the 3-05 bios...everything runs fine...cpu shows temp of 40degrees and fan is quiet...shuttle support has been a waste of time...completely worthless....Now they have me RMA'ing the barebone to them for testing....

the bios from 3-05 detects the processor as AMD Hammer unknown...the newer ones actually detect as full name...

anyone?
 
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