SENTRY: Console-sized gaming PC case project

[iFreilicht]

I think I saw a card from zotac that did something similar to the PCB you showed here. 19mm require quite a tight bend to fit the GPU, but in the name of reducing size, that's absolutely acceptable, I think.

I wouldn't say 95% of cards are following the standard dimensions. Just looking at the 980s available, 52 are aircooled. Of those, only 29 are inside the standard height. It gets better when looking at the 980Ti or Titan X because they have more reference design cards available, but the 970 (49 aircooled, 30 within standard) and 960 (48 aircooled, 29 within standard) are just as bad.

Not saying that your decision is wrong, though. It's not like there's any card that's not widely available in a standard conform design, so you're only limiting people in terms of aftermarket cooling solutions. Which, again, is absolutely valid in the name of size reduction.

 

[SaperPL]

Yeah I get it, and you know what - it's still a milestone for this type of cases. they are something new and when we get there with our products, card manufacturer's will have to think about fitting their cards inside steam cases.

It's still a progress from when you had to use low profile cards or single slot cards only and now you get to use around a half of the cards available on the market. Before you had like 10 versions of low profile GTX 750 or HD7750 class cards that could fit in such a desktop case and that still limited to two or three by your local distribution if you wanted to have a local shop warranty. You checked yourself that there are 88 cards to pick from only nvidia 960-980 range so it's still like 30 times more possible units to get for a gaming htpc/lrpc chassis then before.

Another thing is that it's not supposed to go well with all those oversized units with ultra high end gpu's like titan X. Remember the steam machine prototypes and that people who got them with 780's and titans thought it wasn't good combo.

Finally we want to keep the size as small as possible while letting you pick components from the store easily. That doesn't mean you can fit everything but that you'll be able to easily buy fitting parts. The exception here is a power supply connector rotation and position because SFX-L standard is something new and we don't want to limit you to one or two configurations (which would be the same as the problem with low profile or single slot cards mentioned before) like other case manufacturers do (check out node 202 or silverstone case power cords on that) so we've found a feasible solution to that problem.

Letting you put anything inside ends up with oversized cases like RVZ01

 

[iFreilicht]

I don't think GPU manufacturers will actually adapt to small cases like ours, bigger-than-big towers still have quite a large market, but I'd love you to prove me wrong there

Well at least you can advertise that way: "2011-3 processor + Titan X in package smaller than the Xbox One". Doesn't matter that it would be as loud as a jet, it would work and will grab attention.
But to be frank, the 780s and Titan Zs had quite a bit higher TDP than the 980 and Titan X do (375W vs 250W on the titans), so maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea after all.

Yeah of course, we all know how no major case manufacturer has really gone all in on very small cases. Everything they do is a compromise.

Did you actually solve that issue with the C13 connector orientations? Or will you just offer different kinds to accommodate all possible configurations in that regard?

 

[SaperPL]

We did solve the problem. We've wasted a little space for that so the PSU is a bit further away the outer wall than in those configs using 90 degree bent cable but it works.

 

[iFreilicht]

We did solve the problem. We've wasted a little space for that so the PSU is a bit further away the outer wall than in those configs using 90 degree bent cable but it works.

Very nice, that's good to hear! It would be nicer if the orientation was standardised, but what are you gonna do?

 

[ZombiPL]

Very nice, that's good to hear! It would be nicer if the orientation was standardised, but what are you gonna do?

Just wait. You'll see what we're gonna do

 

[ajac09]

Hopefully you can make it so you can mount the video card in a way so I can lay the case flat vs standing up!

 

[SaperPL]

Hopefully you can make it so you can mount the video card in a way so I can lay the case flat vs standing up!

I don't really get what you mean - we have support for both flat and vertical position but what does it have to do with the way the card is mounted?

 

[ajac09]

I don't really get what you mean - we have support for both flat and vertical position but what does it have to do with the way the card is mounted?

Alot of the ones on the market only support a separate video card when horizontal. I prefer to lay it flat. Love to see the video card moved via a riser cable to the top so the airflow can be managed up and back vs bottom and side.

 

[SaperPL]

I don't get what you mean by separate video card - they ale are separate and in such cases with risers those are horizontal.

About the latter - if you mean turning it around so it sucks air from the top - I think both esplin and iFreilicht are doing this kind of cases.

 

[iFreilicht]

Alot of the ones on the market only support a separate video card when horizontal. I prefer to lay it flat. Love to see the video card moved via a riser cable to the top so the airflow can be managed up and back vs bottom and side.

Horizontal is the same as laying it flat, you're thinking about vertical.
The case design of this case allows for both orientations as the case has feet that allow the GPU to suck in air from the bottom.
The exhaust depends on the GPU. With a blower-style reference card, you'll only have exhaust on the back, none to the side.

@SaperPL I think by separate he meant dedicated

 

[ZombiPL]

Horizontal is the same as laying it flat, you're thinking about vertical.
The case design of this case allows for both orientations as the case has feet that allow the GPU to suck in air from the bottom.
The exhaust depends on the GPU. With a blower-style reference card, you'll only have exhaust on the back, none to the side.

@SaperPL I think by separate he meant dedicated

I also didn't understand it for the first time. Maybe because we both assumed that checking the 1st page of the topic before asking questions is obvious. Our bad.

 

[elshekar]

Please confirm maxium dimensions of the GPU and post it in the main post. I asume 19mm over the reference means 19+111,15 means a max: 130,15mm. Right?

Then I dont know can fit your R9 270X if it's (297x132x43)

Finally my seller of the 290 Tri-X dissapeared and now have new offers: MSI R9 290 Gaming OC (276x127x39), XFX R9 290 DD (295x143x42) and Gigabyte R9 290X WF3 (294x141x41). Another of my preferences was the Sapphire's R9 290 Tri-X (305x113x38)

This is so confusing. Please confirm dimensions in the main post. Need to know that my next year gpu will fit

 

[SaperPL]

We did check out the R270x in second prototype we had and it did fit. We did not change the card location since so it shouldn't be a problem.

The problem is some manufacturers measure card length including full bracket and that 270X windforce plastic cover with cooler mounts stand out adding some mm to this dimension.

According to photos on this review: http://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/gigabyte_r9_270x_windforce_3x_review,5.html

The PCB size looks perfectly standard with ~6mm over the bracket edge

And here's the card model we're using as 305mm gpu with reference PCB height:



Here's what the front of the card looks like - note the plastic part with "windforce" on it standing out

Anyway Zombi is going to measure the card asap and we'll let you know how far are we off with it.

As for the dimensions and choosing next card:

1) It's still work in progress and we'll make sure to let you know the final dimensions and tested cards etc when we're ready.

2) Don't go for a radeon if you're choosing a new card now - your savings on the card will be lost in the power bill and you'll have hotter and louder rig. Get 960 or 970 depending on the budget. it's the same thing as with picking FX over i7 which ends up with really expensive cooler, motherboard and power supply in comparison to what's a minimum for i7.

3) Go for the card with PCIE referenced PCB height. We have to make this kind of stuff fit in, it's a must, if that doesn't fit we'll have to fix it.

 

[ZombiPL]

As my brother said, i measured the main dimensions of my r9 270X:

According to what i checked, the plastic front of the power connectors is 2,5 mm deeper than the gpu top -114mm- (without the plastic windforce sign). What is more, the part of the gpu power plug, which will stay "outside" the connector, has 11mm.

After simple math it turns out that we will have about 7,5 mm for the gpu power cable bending, which should be enough to use standard gpu power plugs:

130mm-114mm+2,5mm-11mm=7,5mm,
where ~130 mm is our actual space for our gpu+power plugs+bended cables.

It really depends which dimensions are showed by the manufacturer, and all of them show different ones. For example Gigabyte shows the width of my r9 270x as W=132mm, while (as i measured) dimensions which we need are only 114mm and 121mm. It is at least 11mm difference. Keep this in mind.

 

[elshekar]

2) Don't go for a radeon if you're choosing a new card now - your savings on the card will be lost in the power bill and you'll have hotter and louder rig. Get 960 or 970 depending on the budget. it's the same thing as with picking FX over i7 which ends up with really expensive cooler, motherboard and power supply in comparison to what's a minimum for i7.

You're right. If i had choose a 65W i5 4570S the logic election is a 960/970. I've sold a week ago my WF3 770 OC and I was thinking in an upgrade to a R9 290, but maybe is too much heat and W for mu future 500W PSU

I'll go for a cheap (196,50€+Batman Arkham Knight) GTX 960 and a 34€ Sharkoon CA-I meanwhile you release your case

 

[SaperPL]

Note that the PCB of most of the itx sized cards is oversized in mentioned earlier dimension.

 

[iFreilicht]

You're right. If i had choose a 65W i5 4570S the logic election is a 960/970. I've sold a week ago my WF3 770 OC and I was thinking in an upgrade to a R9 290, but maybe is too much heat and W for mu future 500W PSU

I'll go for a cheap (196,50€+Batman Arkham Knight) GTX 960 and a 34€ Sharkoon CA-I meanwhile you release your case

http://fotos.pccomponentes.com/tarj...ess/gigabyte_geforce_gtx_xxx_oc_2gb_gddr5.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61BzQNMrRqL._SL1000_.jpg

As SaperPL noted, some mITX GPUs have oversized PCBs. None of them seems to be wider than 130mm, though, so they will just about fit.
If you want to make sure that your mITX 960 fits everything, go for the EVGA, Inno3D or Zotac models, those are all reference height.
There's also the KFA²/GALAX GTX 960 OC, which is 179mm long but it has reference height as well.

 

[elshekar]

Too late I bought it just after my last post. Dont worry i'll take the risk . No other brands were available in my country but once again dont worry .

 

[SaperPL]

According to its size (136mm including bracket which is 9mm more than standard 127mm including bracket) you should be able to fit it tightly/barely with power PEG cord angled sticking out of the case through one of the side air outlets

Other possibility is that soon there could happen some kind of angled PEG connectors/extenders on the market and you could use those or make one yourself - buy yourself PEG extender and drill the holes for the cables in its plastic - someone on the forum already made it, don't remember where it was.

Anyway if there's someone looking for a itx-like card to buy now try to find something like galax/zotac/kfa models up to 210mm of length with standard pcb size. This way you'll be also able to mount those additional four 2.5" drives in the VGA bay.

 

[ZombiPL]

*UPDATE*

We just had a meeting with our supplier from the laser-cutting company. It looks like we've achieved bending repeatability. It means, next step will be repeatability in point-welding, galvanizing and painting. We're thinking about laser-cutting our case parts from the metal sheets, which are already galvanized. The only problem is that, laser makes edges which will stay without galvanized cover. Of course whole case will be painted, but in case someone will scratch it on the edge, then rust can show up. We have to think it through. If individual galvanizing won't be very expensive, than we'll probably do it in the mass production.

Ok. Now is the time for point-welding

 

[iFreilicht]

Not from this forum, but here is a tutorial with lots of pictures from the german hardwareluxx forum:
http://www.hardwareluxx.de/communit...-einen-abgewinkelten-pcie-stecker-683614.html
Just open the spoilers, you don't really have to read anything to understand it.

*UPDATE*

We just had a meeting with our supplier from the laser-cutting company. It looks like we've achieved bending repeatability. It means, next step will be repeatability in point-welding, galvanizing and painting. We're thinking about laser-cutting our case parts from the metal sheets, which are already galvanized. The only problem is that, laser makes edges which will stay without galvanized cover. Of course whole case will be painted, but in case someone will scratch it on the edge, then rust can show up. We have to think it through. If individual galvanizing won't be very expensive, than we'll probably do it in the mass production.

Ok. Now is the time for point-welding

What does repeatability mean? That you can be sure that 100 or so units will all turn out the same?

 

[ZombiPL]

Not from this forum, but here is a tutorial with lots of pictures from the german hardwareluxx forum:
http://www.hardwareluxx.de/communit...-einen-abgewinkelten-pcie-stecker-683614.html
Just open the spoilers, you don't really have to read anything to understand it.

+1. This is the way of DIY power plugs. I think there should be something like that on the market. Chinese guys have everything

What does repeatability mean? That you can be sure that 100 or so units will all turn out the same?

Yes. This is what it means. As You can see the topic title, this pc case should be a cheap one. In this form factor cheap means <150$ and expensive means >220$. We try to keep below that lower line, so we can't work with big companies like LianLi, who can (from the start) guarantee the good bending quiality.

Bigger companies can work with special press with special stamps, so many bended sheets can be repeatable, because the whole process is almost automatic. But there is a catch: Special stamps cost a lot of money, which could rise the final case price over 200$. That is why we are working with smaller companies, where bending is made on the standard edge press. Because of that, it took a lot of time to get the repeatability. Standard edge-press bending quality depends mostly on a good design and experienced staff. We've tested 3 different laser-cutting companies with bending equipment until we got the satisfying result and we were sure our design is good. If we couldn't get the repeatability, than we should change the whole design, which could take more time + would cost more for final customer. If we make cheaper case, more people can afford it. This is our goal which we (partly) achieved today.

 

[iFreilicht]

Yes. This is what it means. As You can see the topic title, this pc case should be a cheap one. In this form factor cheap means <150$ and expensive means >220$. We try to keep below that lower line, so we can't work with big companies like LianLi, who can (from the start) guarantee the good bending quiality.

[...]

That's very good to hear! I guess you could make the case even cheaper if you were able to do stamping, but that would require a lot of units to be sold, so it's not really feasible at all.

So what you mean by "achieving" repeatability is that you've finally found a company that does their job well enough for production, and you modified your design in such a way that made the production as easy as possible for them, correct?

 

[ZombiPL]

So what you mean by "achieving" repeatability is that you've finally found a company that does their job well enough for production, and you modified your design in such a way that made the production as easy as possible for them, correct?

Exactly This company has quality control according to ISO 9001:2008, so we knew we'll get a good product. They only needed some time to get rid of those repeatability issues/problems. Now we can move to the next step.

 

[SaperPL]

That feeling when you finally get stuff done properly

@iFreilicht - thanks for the DiY PEG mod - good news for the guys wanting to put something slightly bigger inside, but don't hope we'll be supplying such modded cable extenders because that's somehow additional work and quick check on Chinese suppliers shows they're not selling this stuff a lot cheaper bundled in 100-packs etc.

I'll try to look for more suppliers but those ain't as cheap as the P4 cpu power extenders.

 

[elshekar]

Nice to know all those news

 

[iFreilicht]

@iFreilicht - thanks for the DiY PEG mod - good news for the guys wanting to put something slightly bigger inside, but don't hope we'll be supplying such modded cable extenders because that's somehow additional work and quick check on Chinese suppliers shows they're not selling this stuff a lot cheaper bundled in 100-packs etc.

I'll try to look for more suppliers but those ain't as cheap as the P4 cpu power extenders.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. As you said previously, there are more than enough different cards that fit, so as long as you have a comprehensive list of what fits, there should be no problem whatsoever. And if somebody really, really wants to fit a larger GPU in there for some reason, you'd think they would be able to do that mod themselves.

 

[Private_Ops]

I didn't really skim the thread to hard. When (or where) can we expect to sign up for one of these?

 

[SaperPL]

We're doing what we can to make it as fast as possible but we still need some time to make it ready. We're trying to make it ready before the steam machines official launch so it's not so far in the future.

About where or how? We're thinking about indiegogo mostly but since we don't really need to gather a target minimum quantity or cash amount we probably could simply have our own store on a website with a paypal as a backend or something like that. But that would depend on how many of people are comfortable with signing up on a startup like this without crowdfunding refund safety net.

Anyway the idea is to get a prototype, test it in-house, then make some more prototypes and send those out to media for evaluation and while we're at this stage we'll probably prepare some newsletter sign-ups or simply google docs survey to check out how much units we're talking about on day one.

 

[Barbarian_PT]

I'm between these one and the Dan A4... Maybe time will be the main decision criteria. Thank you for your excellent work.

 

[EdZ]

About where or how? We're thinking about indiegogo mostly but since we don't really need to gather a target minimum quantity or cash amount we probably could simply have our own store on a website with a paypal as a backend or something like that. But that would depend on how many of people are comfortable with signing up on a startup like this without crowdfunding refund safety net.

While Indiegogo does allow for 'flexible funding' (still transfers money even if the 'target' is not met), Indiegogo's reputation with Flexible Funding is generally poor due to a lot of scams using flexible funding and very little policing of campaigns from Indiegogo.
If not using Kickstarter itself, you're probably better off with your own dedicated website and not taking the hit from a 3rd party skimming off a percentage.

 

[SaperPL]

I'm between these one and the Dan A4... Maybe time will be the main decision criteria. Thank you for your excellent work.

Cool, I wasn't really convinced that someone was picking between us and dondan since these two cases are of different shapes.

While Indiegogo does allow for 'flexible funding' (still transfers money even if the 'target' is not met), Indiegogo's reputation with Flexible Funding is generally poor due to a lot of scams using flexible funding and very little policing of campaigns from Indiegogo.
If not using Kickstarter itself, you're probably better off with your own dedicated website and not taking the hit from a 3rd party skimming off a percentage.

That's part of the problem. Of course for us making it on kickstarter is a real pain since we're out of it range as located in Poland and again we don't want to be sliced off by yet another company just to use kickstarter.

The big dilemma here is that crowdfunding campaigns tend to have bigger momentum as people who want the product will more likely share the info about it to increase the chance of funding and at the same time campaigns that doesn't get this momentum initially are more likely to fail. So it's a double sided blade for a startup and especially risky when considering a product that's ready to be manufactured without the help of crowdfunding.

 

[Barbarian_PT]

Cool, I wasn't really convinced that someone was picking between us and dondan since these two cases are of different shapes.

I need the most portable case possible. I'm always traveling and changing home (work). I need a small case to travel by plane. I already have an acer FT200HQL in my hand luggage and I need a case that fits there too.

 

[ZombiPL]

I need the most portable case possible. I'm always traveling and changing home (work). I need a small case to travel by plane. I already have an acer 200hql in my hand luggage and I need a case that fits there too.

Here You're right about the travel possibilities with the pc case. With dondan's A4 You will need a special bag, like the one made for Ncase M1. In our situation, the only bag You will need is a 17'' laptop bag. There are many laptop bags on the market, which will be enough for our case.

After we'll finish actual prototype, we'll make a test with our case, where we'll buy 3-5 different 17'' laptop bags from different price range, to check if it is hard to find a bag for our case.

 

[SaperPL]

@Barbarian_PT

I'm kinda the same kind of guy travelling with the pc rather than notebook and for last two years I've been using something very similar in shape to the dondan's A4 but with single slot short card and I pretty much end up always using this sort of cubic bag for it and wasting half of the space inside while forcefully fitting everything around the pc.

With slim pc and laptop bag it's a lot easier to put everything else in this bigger bag and not care whether someone hits it or when I have to squeeze it to fit under the seat.

As for our case - I usually end up putting the prototype into the laptop bag when taking it from office to the workshop and back.

Case fits inside the main chamber (outside the foam sub-chamber) and I can still fit some other stuff inside the other chambers like 14" notebook or tools and the vertical stand.

 

[Barbarian_PT]

I traveled with a SG09, and a SG05.
SG09 becomes too heavy because all the hardware we can and put inside.
The SG05 is great for travelling (even in a common backpack), but SG05+FT200HQL monitor won't fit anymore!
I've been looking for buying the A4, but your case is even smaller.

But A4 is easy to carry in hand luggage too, just like the bigger SG05.

 

[SaperPL]

Wow, that's quite a big combo for travelling. I think our case will let make your travelling a bit easier

That wasn't really general use case idea for transporting it with all peripherals including the screen but its interesting.

I mainly thought about:
- pro gamers and lan parties - since it's always better to play on your own setup
- game developers - grabbing pc build's when the console build is not there yet with the performance
- any other professionals - taking workstation home

 

[EdZ]

The big dilemma here is that crowdfunding campaigns tend to have bigger momentum as people who want the product will more likely share the info about it to increase the chance of funding and at the same time campaigns that doesn't get this momentum initially are more likely to fail. So it's a double sided blade for a startup and especially risky when considering a product that's ready to be manufactured without the help of crowdfunding.

One option would be a crowd-funding-style open-ended preorder meter. Stick a big meter of "we need this many orders / this much money in preorders to start manufacturing", and have it fill up as people pre-order. No need to set an explicit time limit (which often encourages a wait-and-see approach). This is the approach Star Citizen took, and it has been massively more successful than their Kickstarter.

 

[SaperPL]

That might be a proper approach. We'll see when we get there

It's like this: We don't really need a big minimum order quantity like 500 units, it's more like 50 - 100 units per batch. IF it happens there'll be hell of a lot of people wanting the case - like 1000 units or more than we maybe could save up on some parts bundled in thousands and throw in some extras thanks to that but with Chinese suppliers you can't really be sure if getting parts in thousands is really going to get them any cheaper. There's a big price range between single unit and 50 or 100 units usually but after that it's a gamble with pc parts. So we don't really see it as some good campaigning feature.

Anyway setting up high MOQ target for our case would end up making the wait time unnecessarily long for those who were there first to order and also could push a lot of manufacturing on us at a time making the wait time longer for everyone. So unless there's a really big momentum with orders on day one we'll probably stick to ordering small batches of components and setting small target for next batch or something like this.

If this small order amount kicks off well we could eventually buffer the manufacturing by putting some of our cash on this and making those batches ahead for storage and ready for order.

By the way - we noticed recently we're getting close to 1000 views daily when we post something here so I think we can be sure of initial 100 units (if someone follows the thread and looks here every time someone posts something new he could generate lets say around 10 views) just on that unless there's someone sitting on F5 button