Sennheiser HD650 vs HD700 vs Beyerdynamic T1

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Neutrino

Gawd
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Nov 10, 2005
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I want to upgrade my current set of cans: Senn 555 with the 595 "mod"

I was initially set on a pair of Senn HD650 (~300 EUR) since you simply cannot go wrong with them, however while browsing I noticed the HD700 dropped in price to about 500 EUR
and now I wonder if it would be worth it to get the newer and presumably fancier tech of the HD700

To make matter even more complicated i found a very good deal to buy the Beyerdynamic T1 flagship for 700 EUR (about 250 eur off the regular price)

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I will be powering them from the ZxR, if i feel they need a more beefy amp I can get one np (a schiit or something)

What i look into a sound system: soundstage, lots of detail, tight and very well controlled bass (I hate anemic or boomy bass)
 
I had the T1s and loved them, but I can't speak on the sennheisers as I never owned those models. However what I read was that the sennheiser headphones are a bit on the darker side with their sound as opposed to the T1
 
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ZXR-WA6-HD800 is my current setup.

Yes the HD700's are worth the upgrade over the HD650's.

I personally didn't care for the T1's because of one thing. The sibilance on these headphones was almost painful. And that was thru a Woo Audio WA6 tube amp.I really had to use the EQ to tone it down. The bass was all around better on the T1's, deeper and tighter.

The soundstage sounded more "real" with the T1's also when compared to the HD700's. (Both have great size though). The T1's had a larger soundstage also.

The HD700's had zero issues with being powered via the ZXR. The T1's you could definately tell benefited from the amp.

Gaming I preferred the HD700's because I could not tell the difference in the soundstage when playing BF4. That and the more forward mids of the HD700's

For what you currently have, and the price points, I would say go with the HD700's man. Though the T1's with a proper setup was the better headphone IMO.
 
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Ok good to know that the 700 is a true upgrade to the 650

The way I am thinking right now the hd 700 is the "safer choice" easier to drive and I certainly like the senheiser sound

too bad i cannot find any deals on the hd800 ... the price delta is too large right now to the hd700

the T1 is tempting ... i'll see how the deals pan out
 
Consider the Philips X2 fidelio.

Tyll over at InnerFidelity seemed to think it beat out the HD600 in terms of the overall listening experience. Quite a lot of praise for it over at HeadFi, FWIW.
 
at this point i'm rather decided on the hd700 or the T1 ... will the x2 fidelio play in the same league?
 
Ignore subjective opinions with unscientific words like "dark", "airy", "soundstage".

Get the most comfortable and flattest frequency response graph i.e. accurate headphones you can afford.

HD800 > HD700 > HD650
 
Panmaster said:
Ignore subjective opinions with unscientific words like "dark", "airy", "soundstage".

Get the most comfortable and flattest frequency response graph i.e. accurate headphones you can afford.

HD800 > HD700 > HD650
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Lol wut? You cant compare cans that have very different sound signatures. There is no " better". Nothing is better than the hd650, its "different".

Also, you need a proper amp.
 
I didn't use the word 'better'.

Ideal headphones have no "sound signatures". They have perfect response so if I play a tone and move it from 10hz to 10kz the sound energy output stays the same.
 
Look into stax. A good used stax system can run you about the same as the 700 and give you exactly the sound signature you mentioned in your first post. Otherwise, my vote goes to the 700 or the X2 if you want to save some $$ and still get fine sound.
 
Panmaster said:
I didn't use the word 'better'.

Ideal headphones have no "sound signatures". They have perfect response so if I play a tone and move it from 10hz to 10kz the sound energy output stays the same.
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Wrong. Ideal based on measurements is utterly useless. We are different, and thus hear different and have different tastes. You might love analytic cans (hd700, hd800, dt880...), i do hate them, excep for specific cases.

The true upgrade of the hd555 are the hd650. Same style, but better in every regard. Of course, you do require a proper amp (though even the hd555 do benefit from it).
 
Gmok Bonecrusha said:
ZXR-WA6-HD800 is my current setup.

Yes the HD700's are worth the upgrade over the HD650's.

I personally didn't care for the T1's because of one thing. The sibilance on these headphones was almost painful. And that was thru a Woo Audio WA6 tube amp.I really had to use the EQ to tone it down. The bass was all around better on the T1's, deeper and tighter.

The soundstage sounded more "real" with the T1's also when compared to the HD700's. (Both have great size though). The T1's had a larger soundstage also.

The HD700's had zero issues with being powered via the ZXR. The T1's you could definately tell benefited from the amp.

Gaming I preferred the HD700's because I could not tell the difference in the soundstage when playing BF4. That and the more forward mids of the HD700's

For what you currently have, and the price points, I would say go with the HD700's man. Though the T1's with a proper setup was the better headphone IMO.
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Thank you for your two cents about the HD-700's. I have a pair of 650's myself, and I've had them now since 2007. Good headphones. But reading your recommendation makes me want a pair of 700's. I still like the 650's a ton though.
 
Have you considered Sennheiser HD 600?
They have a wonderfully balanced sound.
I've had mine since 2007 and am very satisfied.
 
I just upgraded from a HD595 to a HE-500, huge improvement. It's definitely worth taking a look at the HE-500 over an HD650/700
 
Panmaster said:
Ignore subjective opinions with unscientific words like "dark", "airy", "soundstage".

Get the most comfortable and flattest frequency response graph i.e. accurate headphones you can afford.

HD800 > HD700 > HD650
Click to expand...

just cause you cant measure it doesnt mean its not important. imo Sound stage is extremely important as it gives you the impression of listening to music in a live environment.

Saying that i have never heard headphones with a big sound stage (yes T1s included) or deep punchy bass compared to speakers.
 
I think the new HiFiMan models could win over a lot of people that find the HE-400/500/600's uncomfortable.

Look into the HE-400i. They've completely changed the headband design and greatly improved the overall comfort.

Granted, the prices are much higher on those for now while they're still new, but I'd expect them to drop after they've been out for a while longer, or perhaps after HiFiMan finally phases out the older models more completely.
 
genkifd said:
just cause you cant measure it doesnt mean its not important. imo Sound stage is extremely important as it gives you the impression of listening to music in a live environment.

Saying that i have never heard headphones with a big sound stage (yes T1s included) or deep punchy bass compared to speakers.
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I had to explain sound stage to a friend because he though his Dr.Craptasttic Dre's powered by his iPhone were awesome and i explained they had no sound stage, he said sound stage wasn't important unless you listen to FLAC or something which is pointless cause there is no difference from MP3.. So i then asked do you see the different from SD TV to HD TV... and he went silent...
 
Gmok Bonecrusha said:
As far as sound quality goes...Yup. But for comfort, they may be the most uncomfortable headphones ever.
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I've had mine on half the day, they are actually pretty comfortable for me. Sure they are heavier than a 650 but that hasn't bothered me so far.
 
ThinJ said:
I think the new HiFiMan models could win over a lot of people that find the HE-400/500/600's uncomfortable.

Look into the HE-400i. They've completely changed the headband design and greatly improved the overall comfort.

Granted, the prices are much higher on those for now while they're still new, but I'd expect them to drop after they've been out for a while longer, or perhaps after HiFiMan finally phases out the older models more completely.
Click to expand...

I didn't know they redesigned 'em. May have another look at the 500's. They were great sounding cans.
 
T1 is a challenge to the HD800.

I have the T1 and have benchmarked the HD800 and kept the T1.
 
John721 said:
Consider the Philips X2 fidelio.

Tyll over at InnerFidelity seemed to think it beat out the HD600 in terms of the overall listening experience. Quite a lot of praise for it over at HeadFi, FWIW.
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Tyll is a great source of information but his tastes are really... subjective. He's recommended some really super priced headphones for what amounts to low end listening (not using HQ sourcing and sticking with specific genres).

I think the X1's are superb and the X2's are even better for a number of good reasons but the HD600-650 are in a class of their own in terms of value/performance ratio. They still blow the X1 and X2's out of the water with accuracy. Both the X1 and X2 have a bit of a boomy sound which is great for dance music or gaming but it can be a bothersome with movies and higher source quality music (especially specific genres that really demand clear bass reproduction). I think a lot of that has to due with efficient nature of the X1-X2's and that they are tailored towards listeners at home but that don't wish to use a powered amp. Since both the HD600's and the X series bleed sound like crazy its really no contest unless you have privacy on the go (hotel room) then closed and efficient solutions will be the most likely choices.

I think the HD700 is great but the price increase just isn't worth the jump UNLESS you are a collector. I think when you approach HD700 cost you should just save and hit the HD800. I love my HD800's , they are incredible but at what they cost they better be..
 
Thank you guys for all the advice so far :)

@spaceman
Unless I know very well the person I'm buying from I usually stay away from used gear. Guess too afraid of ending up with a defective product (of course it does limit my options :( )

The HE cans seem a bit scarce in my area so i don't think they are too much of an option for me

Since the HD700 are a lot newer than the HD600/650 I was thinking that a few extra years of R&D might translate into better performance (I could be wrong of course)


The T1 is tempting by being a flagship product (a bit snobby maybe but it's cool to have the best product a company makes ;) )
 
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I like my 650s a lot but they are just okay for gaming if you ask me. I am looking towards a better headphone for gaming with similar level of quality. Can't beat them for 350$ though.
 
I have the T1's. They really do sound amazing paired with my O2 DAC AMP (especially on instrumental tracks), but the sibilance is real. Very real. And sometimes, very painful.

Still though... the instrumental tracks sound great. Tons of detail.
 
Buying from headfi is pretty safe. Just check their feedback. I have bought I don't know how many headphones there and not had an issue.
 
spaceman said:
Buying from headfi is pretty safe. Just check their feedback. I have bought I don't know how many headphones there and not had an issue.
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I got my first pair of Beyerdynamics from a user at HeadFi. Also got my HD-600's from someone there. So +1 there.
 
StoleMyOwnCar said:
I have the T1's. They really do sound amazing paired with my O2 DAC AMP (especially on instrumental tracks), but the sibilance is real. Very real. And sometimes, very painful.

Still though... the instrumental tracks sound great. Tons of detail.
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Is the sibilance the fault of the recording/source and the T1 "points it out" or is it purely the T1s fault?

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Thanks for the head-fi used sales advice. I'll consider it, maybe a super deal shows up :)
 
genkifd said:
just cause you cant measure it doesnt mean its not important. imo Sound stage is extremely important as it gives you the impression of listening to music in a live environment.

Saying that i have never heard headphones with a big sound stage (yes T1s included) or deep punchy bass compared to speakers.
Click to expand...

We'll have to agree to disagree.

As a scientific person I think "sound stage" is mumbo-jumbo.:D
 
Panmaster said:
We'll have to agree to disagree.

As a scientific person I think "sound stage" is mumbo-jumbo.:D
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Sound staging is just a term for replication of the artificial sound environment your cans create. Open headphones are always better at this (unless you start dumping thousands into high end closed headphones even then they are inferior to better more expensive open cans) because they have access to the outside air instead being an enclosed chamber.

I deplore artificial terminology that has become the norm in audiophile circles. Its similar language that Cigar manufacturers use or critics use to describe the "taste" when in fact its very simple to describe (same for Wine critics as well). Its flowery language meant to infer its greater "pedigree" when its just nonsense. But Sound Staging is a somewhat non-scientific way to describe how such headphones handle audio reproduction and in much more scientific terms how much sound is bled into the room as a result.

Of course this is only my opinion but I consider myself reasonably well informed on the topic.
 
Panmaster said:
We'll have to agree to disagree.

As a scientific person I think "sound stage" is mumbo-jumbo.:D
Click to expand...

that is like saying numbers doesnt mean much, as numbers / figures does not means how good or bad a song sounds to an individual.
 
Update:

Today they dropped even more the price on the T1 to 650 EUR. At this price I just could not pass it up ;)

So I just ordered a T1 :)

I will let you guys know what I think of them when they get here. Also thanks again for all the advice :)
 
Neutrino said:
Is the sibilance the fault of the recording/source and the T1 "points it out" or is it purely the T1s fault?

----------------------------

Thanks for the head-fi used sales advice. I'll consider it, maybe a super deal shows up :)
Click to expand...

This is kind of late, but the T1 has always been known to be a pretty bright and detailed pair of earphones. On the other hand, the O2 DAC/AMP is, by design, one of the most accurate and analytical dacamps available. Basically the creator tried to create something that would perform as well as possible on lab tests for the lowest price possible. So basically, the fault would probably be in the recording... but the T1's pick it up very, very harshly if that fault exists due to their inherent peak at those frequencies.

Also it depends on just how ruined your ears are at this point, I guess. Apparently mine are very sensitive to high pitch content like sibilance. Many other people say they don't have a problem with it. Still others say that they think every pair of earphones are different and that theirs might be defective for having this much sibilance. Honestly I was wondering whether my pair was, too. But ultimately for 600 USD I just went ahead and kept it. I just turn down the volume for any sibilant tracks.

I think most people try to pair it with tube amps for this purpose. But to me I kind of wonder what the point of doing that is over simply performing DSP. In fact I remember during my post-purchase research I ran into a thread where they were discussing the very thing: EQ options to make the T1's less harsh. They had a preset ready to download and someone tested it out and said that it sounded excellent. I need to find that topic and give it a shot myself.

Brings up a broader question though: What's the point of getting an amp that by design warps sounds a certain way rather than getting a cheap and very analytical, accurate DAC/AMP (paired with similar earphones) and then warping the sound software-side? It sounds to me like the latter is much more flexible than the former.
 
StoleMyOwnCar said:
This is kind of late, but the T1 has always been known to be a pretty bright and detailed pair of earphones. On the other hand, the O2 DAC/AMP is, by design, one of the most accurate and analytical dacamps available. Basically the creator tried to create something that would perform as well as possible on lab tests for the lowest price possible. So basically, the fault would probably be in the recording... but the T1's pick it up very, very harshly if that fault exists due to their inherent peak at those frequencies.

Also it depends on just how ruined your ears are at this point, I guess. Apparently mine are very sensitive to high pitch content like sibilance. Many other people say they don't have a problem with it. Still others say that they think every pair of earphones are different and that theirs might be defective for having this much sibilance. Honestly I was wondering whether my pair was, too. But ultimately for 600 USD I just went ahead and kept it. I just turn down the volume for any sibilant tracks.

I think most people try to pair it with tube amps for this purpose. But to me I kind of wonder what the point of doing that is over simply performing DSP. In fact I remember during my post-purchase research I ran into a thread where they were discussing the very thing: EQ options to make the T1's less harsh. They had a preset ready to download and someone tested it out and said that it sounded excellent. I need to find that topic and give it a shot myself.

Brings up a broader question though: What's the point of getting an amp that by design warps sounds a certain way rather than getting a cheap and very analytical, accurate DAC/AMP (paired with similar earphones) and then warping the sound software-side? It sounds to me like the latter is much more flexible than the former.
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Exactly.

Analytic all the way.
 
spaceman said:
Buying from headfi is pretty safe. Just check their feedback. I have bought I don't know how many headphones there and not had an issue.
Click to expand...

I bought my HD-650s from a fellow head-fi member from Czech Republic. Good folks over on head-fi.
 
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