Senior Project Design (active submersion / Internal cooling device)

hey would it be effective to get a block used for just the cpu cooling and use the 61 watt liquid cooler to go striaght to the proceesor then out to the system and take in fluid from somewhere in the machine. Then on top of that since that would circulate, just add a few peltiers to cool the liquid in general
 
whats wrong with phase changing the fluid peltiers require too much cooling and also consume a preposterous ammount of power, were talking to cool the fluid 600-800W of just pelter cooling, when a phase change system would be somthing like 80 watts total
 
Well phase changers cost a whole lot and are complicated..while i think i can buy a 350 watt peltier for like 25 bucks on ebay, or even better i saw one that runs on 12 volt dc and draws little current. Its made for a cooler and its huge with a big heat sink, i wonder if one of these, or one on each side would create enough of a cool without drawing too much power
 
ShinySwords said:
Well phase changers cost a whole lot and are complicated..while i think i can buy a 350 watt peltier for like 25 bucks on ebay, or even better i saw one that runs on 12 volt dc and draws little current. Its made for a cooler and its huge with a big heat sink, i wonder if one of these, or one on each side would create enough of a cool without drawing too much power
thats 700 watts of power there, your going to need a psu for each one(got a 60 amp 12v psu laying around?), no cheap one either, GL paying the energy bill imo
 
ryuji said:
whats wrong with phase changing the fluid peltiers require too much cooling and also consume a preposterous ammount of power, were talking to cool the fluid 600-800W of just pelter cooling, when a phase change system would be somthing like 80 watts total
i really wonder what hydro costs states-side, that people talk like this.

my house is heated with 3000 watt heaters in every room. adding a pelt rig to my electrical bill didn't even make a blip.

edit: incidently, i agree that PSUs for pelts are expensive. don't look at how cheap the pelts are, without figuring what the power supplies to run them are going to cost. a 200 watt pelt is suitable for a CPU, and nothing else. directing a stream of fluid chilled by a 60 watt pelt isn't going to do a thing.
 
i honestly didnt look at the units for the power cost, it wouldnt be much upon closer examination,
but a 600W 24v psu is going to set you back $150 probably http://www.frozencpu.com/psu-123.html
no idea of quality of those psus, but its around what you would need
 
ryuji said:
i honestly didnt look at the units for the power cost, it wouldnt be much upon closer examination
but a 600W 24v psu is going to set you back $150 probably http://www.frozencpu.com/psu-123.html
no idea of quality of those psus, but its around what you would need
great quality, good to work with. those are the brand of PSUs that you want.

you would want to use some 24 volt pelts, if you go with that specific unit. it doesn't have enough current output to run multiple 12 volt pelts in series, safely. you might want to compare what level of pumping capacity you can get with 24 votl, vs 12 volt. 12 volt will require multiple PSUs to get enough capacity, however each PSU is cheaper.
 
did some calculations and googling, really depends on how much your gonna run it
if you intend to run it 24/7, it would be 595.2 kilowatt-hours per month, w/e they charge for power(califonia does $0.08 per kilowatt hour) so that would be $50 a month to run 600 watts worth of pelt 24/7
i dunno what it is in massachusetts i just know that its expensive, and running window unit air conditioners and stuff ramps up power bill, even running the pool pump does

this is stuff i dun know much about cuz i dont pay bills, im prob horribly wrong :rolleyes:
 
the power supply for a few cheap peltier devices doesnt make that big of a difference. One of the things that would work are like 600-900, when 2 pelts and a power supply (which i could build if i wanted) cost a grand total of like 150+30+30 = 210
 
i ased a friend and it makes sense that around here its $0.25 per kilowatt-hour(googled it, thought it was too high, turned out to be about right) so, if i were to run a 800 watt pelt it would cost $150 a month :eek:
 
ryuji said:
i ased a friend and it makes sense that around here its $0.25 per kilowatt-hour(googled it, thought it was too high, turned out to be about right) so, if i were to run a 800 watt pelt it would cost $150 a month :eek:
!!!!!!!!!!

it's $0.05/KW-h up here. jeez....and we need to bring more generators on-line at the moment, as well, so they're charging a bit of a premium to try and curb usage untill the grid has some more power.
 
DFI Daishi said:
!!!!!!!!!!

it's $0.05/KW-h up here. jeez....and we need to bring more generators on-line at the moment, as well, so they're charging a bit of a premium to try and curb usage untill the grid has some more power.
guess for me im better off with phase then pelt cooling :p heres a theory, you ppl up there use all hydro-electric? we use mostly deisel here


opps, i misread the documentation, no its not $0.25 per kilowatt-hour, it was saying 0.25 cents needed to be added onto the bill to fund improving the efficiency of power distribution, its hard to find these figures online its like there trade secrets or somthing :rolleyes:
 
ryuji said:
guess for me im better off with phase then pelt cooling :p heres a theory, you ppl up there use all hydro-electric? we use mostly deisel here
hydro + nuke. the idiot that we presently have in power around here thinks that we should use more coal.......bloody git is just unwilling to commit to the added expense of re conditioning some of our current nukes, or building some of the new high efficiency CANDUs.

building them pays off, big time, however it takes longer than a term of government to turn a profit. damn politics.
 
Shiny, you have decided your mind on peltier and have set your ideas. You ARE NOT listening to people who have experienced with just about all things you are mentioning, as well as some more. If you have decided your mind, why are you BOTHERING to ask questions? Are you just trying to prove people here who have been doing this well before you even started getting the idea?
Or are you honestly asking questions and advices?
Tell you what. WHAT IS YOUR TRUE budget. Don't get mush mush and give us something like $1000 but it is too expebnsive. Give us REAL number where we can think of something that you might have good time with. Give us REAL goal of what you want to achieve.
Gosh, it is amazing to see how people want to jump into extreme cooling, asking for help and almost always shove off ideas suggested by people who "DO" know and just disappear and never comeback.
I've done many water loops over my time, peltier coolings, phasechanges, and advice of mine will be simple.
If you want something just faster, stick to simple water. If you want something extreme, skip peltier and head to phasechange.
Typical peltier setup will cost as much as phasechange setup in end. Shall I add it up for you? (yes you can get cheaper part or more expensive but this is what i consider optimal)

Pump: $75
Specific PSU mentioned: $150-250
Peltier waterblock: $80-150
Peltier gpu block: $60-100 (optional but if you want to cool gpu too either you do peltier loop or separate waterloop with another pump and radiator which would come out even more expensive)
Radiaotrs/fans: $50-150 (depends on how many you want to shove in and how you want to cool it, if you want it quiet, you will need at least BIP3 and possibly one more if you have GPU too)
Add it up... easily getting into $600 range not counting little things.

Well, tell us what you exactly plan to do and listen this time. We are making quite a few wild guesses here.

PS) maybe you are thinking of something like this... http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swmc45thlich.html
 
i agree, a phase changer would be INSIDE the $1000 budget, you would even have money left over for the tank and other shit, the hardest part i getting someone to build you one, the rest ifs easy
 
Just a comment about the peltiers :

The revision 1 thinktank used two 226W peltiers , at full current , with open loop watercooling , on the final tests , as was not capable of achieving less than about 35 degrees C.

Why ?

Too large a heat load .The thing you need to realize , is it's not just pumping the heat from the cpu/mobo......it's cooling the liquid , the tank the liquid is in , etc etc....

I would suggest the peltier route is probably outta yer range : I'll be using 3x437Watt peltiers next , in an attempt to break 0 degrees C ....That's about 1000$ right there.
 
ShinySwords said:
I am taking all post into consideration and actually the minifridge would be an easy way out but not effective or practicle. I did think of a way but i dont know if it would work, i will research it tho because it seems almost too good to be true. Freon is a chemical which gets cold but applying heat to it in a sense. If i had a couple smaller peltier devices cooling the liquid, i could at the same time use the hot side of the peltier device to apply a heat to a freon pipe or unit. In sense the peltier devive would cool the liquid and at the same time the heat produce by the hot side could be utilized to create the heat to cool the freon, which would be piped and connected to all the peltier devices and then used to cool the processor. Wish me luck on the reasearch for this...
Your logic here is not right. The freon is not cooled by heat. You want to pick up some books on thermodynamics if you are going to get this technical into the project. The freon is the substance in a phase change system the changes phase. The act of changing phase is what creates the temperature change. Freon is actually already in gas form before it gets to the heat exchanger (whatever you have inside the comp that is drawing the heat out).
 
ShinySwords said:
Well phase changers cost a whole lot and are complicated..while i think i can buy a 350 watt peltier for like 25 bucks on ebay, or even better i saw one that runs on 12 volt dc and draws little current. Its made for a cooler and its huge with a big heat sink, i wonder if one of these, or one on each side would create enough of a cool without drawing too much power
A basic rule for peltiers is that in order to pump X watts the peltier will also consume AT LEAST X watts. There is no shortcut. There are no tricks.

If you have a 350 watt peltier that menas that the peltier uses 350 watts. That doesn't mean that it will pump 350 watts off of your heat source, but it should come close if it's a quality TEC. In the end you will have to deal with whatever heat your heat source generates plus the heat from the pelter.

Edit: If anyone wants to know, peltiers use quantum physics to pump heat. That alone is enough to give the average nerd a stiffy. It's a really simple idea if someone can explain it properly. I understand it, but getting into it here would probably constitute thread-jacking, and would take too long with my feeble skills at teaching.
 
jinu117 said:
Well, tell us what you exactly plan to do and listen this time. We are making quite a few wild guesses here.

PS) maybe you are thinking of something like this... http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swmc45thlich.html
I am following this forum for help, i never have a mind set so do not be offened or such, i always take what you guys say into consideration and alot of what im thinking comes from what you have suggested
OK so this liquid cooling pump would chill the liquid for a low price, good
then could i use this device to chill the liquid recycled from the machine and send it through this directly to the cpu and out from there. After that what else would you guys suggest for further cooling in general.

So basicaslly if i bought this liquid cooling pump what else would i need to cool the liquid and help with the heat dissapation from the cpu?
 
ShinySwords said:
I am following this forum for help, i never have a mind set so do not be offened or such, i always take what you guys say into consideration and alot of what im thinking comes from what you have suggested
OK so this liquid cooling pump would chill the liquid for a low price, good
then could i use this device to chill the liquid recycled from the machine and send it through this directly to the cpu and out from there. After that what else would you guys suggest for further cooling in general.

So basicaslly if i bought this liquid cooling pump what else would i need to cool the liquid and help with the heat dissapation from the cpu?
Can you specify one thing for me? Are you looking for low temps or just operating temps? Specifically what is the range you are trying to keep within?

Below 0c
Below Room temp
Close to but not below Room temp
Below Device Failure temp

Everyone in here is bashing their heads on this idea that you are trying to do some "Extreme" cooling, but I get this feeling that you just want the thing to run while immersed.
 
I want to get around 0 decgrees c, anything lower would be great but if it would cost/take too much to achieve this, then just a low temp would be fine.

I found on ebay kinda big peltier ( http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-HUGE-Peltie...Z5818814937QQcategoryZ294QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ) device and was wondering if this would work for just general cooling for the liquid if i put the hotside heatsink outside the tower, while the cool side was in the tower, again dont get upset or whatever im just brainstorming and your all helping out alot
 
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ShinySwords said:
I want to get around 0 decgrees c, anything lower would be great but if it would cost/take too much to achieve this, then just a low temp would be fine.

I found on ebay kinda big peltier ( http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-HUGE-Peltier-Heater-Cooler-Assembly-w-HEATSINKS_W0QQitemZ5818814937QQcategoryZ294QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ) device and was wondering if this would work for just general cooling for the liquid if i put the hotside heatsink outside the tower, while the cool side was in the tower, again dont get upset or whatever im just brainstorming and your all helping out alot
Is 0c a required part of the project? Once you go below room temp, you're looking at a whole lot more in terms of complexity and cost.

how about this:

Get an AC unit, tear off the cover, set it up with the primary heat exchanger immersed in your fluid (you can pitch the fans). make a reservior for the fluid where you can put the AC unit into it, and run a pump for the flow into your main case. you'll need a return tube as well for the hot coolant to come back.

Like this:

|---------| -> |-------------|
| AC ...|--------| Case |
|Heat. | ........|........ |
|Exch |--------|......... |
|Bath .|. <-.. |......... |
|----------|...... |----------|
 
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if you're set on using peltiers, here's an idea.

1. Get a big copper plate to use as one of the sides of your case. Bottom would be best.

2. Get as many peliers as you need to cover the wattage heat dissipation.

3. Get a heatsink off of some big ass power amp like you would find in a bass-head's trunk.

4. Thermal glue the peltiers to the copper plate and the heatsink to the peltiers.

5. Get as many high speed fans as you can, and duct the airflow over the heatsink. (Probably around 10-15 90mm fans would do)

6. Make sure you have a pump moving the coolant fluid over the surface of the copper plate.
 
that water chiller isnt going to cool your tank of fluid fast enough, you need SERIOUS wattage(about 1KW to practically get to 0C and thats even a maybe too)

air conditioner is best bet, i didnt know the heat exchanger would work immersed as well, a window unit air conditioner and a fish tank later, your all set, make sure its a GLASS fish tank because i belive plexy gets extremely brittle under 0C and glass does not
(keep in mind that with about 30 gallons of whatever isnt going to be very mobile so why try to keep it light)


a cheap air conditioner would cost you somthing like $300 basically get the cheapest you can find because there a lot bigger then a phase changer usualy is for BTU's i imagine
, you would be buying the fish tank in any situation, and 30 gallons of liquid but other then that there are no other costs going this route, it seems to me the easiest and most cost effective but it would be a good idea to have a submersible outdoor aquarium pump to move the fluid around, if you let it stay still its going to freeze to the heat exchanger
 
ok so lets see if i get this, buy an ac unit and disect it in a sense, then take and make the cold part of the pipe go into my case and the liquid and the out again back into the ac unit. on top get a pump to circulate the liquid inside the tank.

Tell me if i got the general idea, again i will research the ac unit and how to integrate it so dont be offended if my understanding is a little sub par. Its a learning expiriance for me here lol.

PS any specific specs to look for in terms of being good for the device and purpose of it?
 
hmmm, im searching on ebay and i will stop at walmart and some other places but if u guys have any idea on an ac unit that would work good and be easy to install (well atleast not impossible lol), like on ebay or another site, post a link to it on here so i can kinda get a collaberation of what you think would be good

again thanks for ur help
 
ShinySwords said:
hmmm, im searching on ebay and i will stop at walmart and some other places but if u guys have any idea on an ac unit that would work good and be easy to install (well atleast not impossible lol), like on ebay or another site, post a link to it on here so i can kinda get a collaberation of what you think would be good

again thanks for ur help
basically a air conditioner is sorta like a peltier, you got a cold radiator, and a hot radiator(simplified, yes but as far as you need to know) you just want to get a air conditioner small enough that you can actualy fit the cold side inside the fish tank, i have no idea how big the cold side radiators are, i leave it to other people to inform
 
OK whats the census
A. Liquid immersion with an AC unit to cool a bit and a pump to circulate
B. Rely more on the notion of the liquid being able to dissapate heat quickly enough and some kind of peltier or liquid cooling device to just cool the liquid a little, doesnt have to be super cool

Theres the choices im lookin at i think, unless more have different ideas, gimme some more feedback on what direction i should go on this project
 
how about: cold rad, horizontal across the top of the tank, and a water pump to draw water from the bottom of the tank, and dump it over the top surface of the rad, allowing the fluid to makes its way down from there.

i'm not really trying to push the pelt thing, it's just what i know best. if you can get better heat pumping capacity out of phase change, and can manage it technically, then go for it. i was only suggesting pelt, because it's a bit easier to put together.
 
For DIY there is no doubt peltier is easier (until you get real extreme). Any phasechange where you plan to undo piping, etc means much money spent on tools and gas, etc. Now that airconditioner idea as suggested DO work.
1) You need to disable the temperature controller so that it runs in full load instead of keep stopping well above 0c you are looking to achieve.
2) As mentioned, condenser (hot side) should be air cooled as it was while evaporator (cold side coil) can be immersed in chiller box (need to have insulation) with liquid in there. Most air conditioner uses rotary pump which performs quite well for their price and you can get decently nice temperature with it.
Now you still haven't mentioned your project budget. It definitely would be more elegant to go custom chiller unit made with some nice control to control temperature of liquid but of course, price can make it or break it as mentioned.
Do you even have your budget allocated on side?
 
OK OK budget im going for is about 1000, but the max im goin for is 1500, i could easily go above this but for the design i want to minimize cost while maximizing effectiveness. I have someone who might be going into this design with me who has alot of experiance with ac unit n such so with my computer know how and his mechanical know how on cooling techniques hopefully we can do this. I think, and open for critizism, im ganna go with an ac device to cool and then the technique of fast dispersion of heat by a certain liquid. again open to any critisism, im not set in my ways yet, so all your input is very crutial to this.

If i can accomlish a good senior project i will post a detailed log and all i have learned linked to this, and no credit will be lost as far as all of you helping me. Again thank you
 
DFI Daishi said:
how about: cold rad, horizontal across the top of the tank, and a water pump to draw water from the bottom of the tank, and dump it over the top surface of the rad, allowing the fluid to makes its way down from there.

i'm not really trying to push the pelt thing, it's just what i know best. if you can get better heat pumping capacity out of phase change, and can manage it technically, then go for it. i was only suggesting pelt, because it's a bit easier to put together.
cant get easier then dunking a rad :p

one thing thats importaint is you want to have directed streams of fluid going towards the cpu and gpu, you want them to get as much as possible so that they are as cool as possible :D
 
ryuji said:
cant get easier then dunking a rad :p
you still need to be able to pipe it to where you need it, an probably re-charge the refrigerant, if you have had to cut pipes and extend them. up here, that means that you need someone HVAC certified to do the work, sign the papers, and buy the gas.

as for directing streams of liqid at key components: a small submersible pump is a wonderfull thing, if you can find a small one with minimal heat dump.
 
DFI Daishi said:
you still need to be able to pipe it to where you need it, an probably re-charge the refrigerant, if you have had to cut pipes and extend them. up here, that means that you need someone HVAC certified to do the work, sign the papers, and buy the gas.

as for directing streams of liqid at key components: a small submersible pump is a wonderfull thing, if you can find a small one with minimal heat dump.
i wouldnt be surprised if you can just take the rad part out and dunk it in at the lengths they are stock, no extensions
 
cool, quite literally, Im going with the integrated ac unit bc its the most efficient and practical (minus sizing) for this project. I have someone who knows alot about the workings and all the ins and outs of an ac unit so he can team up with me for this project. The next step i see is crunching some numbers to find out what kind of BTUs need to be handled. After this im ganna go buy an ac unit and take it apart (and maybe an aquarium/pond pump while im there). Then look at size and dimensioning for all of it so i can decide on a custom made case/tank for it. After the case has been drawn up i will calculate the volume of liquid i should need if the tank was empty so that I will have plenty in case things go wrong. Research into the liquid i should use (from this forum, again thanks guys lol). Then order or buy the liquid if i can find it around here, if not the internet is a wonderful thing. After this itll be time for the fun part, makin it.

Quick question, if you over clock the CPU to a point where it fails, whill it damage the motherboard?
 
ShinySwords said:
cool, quite literally, Im going with the integrated ac unit bc its the most efficient and practical (minus sizing) for this project. I have someone who knows alot about the workings and all the ins and outs of an ac unit so he can team up with me for this project. The next step i see is crunching some numbers to find out what kind of BTUs need to be handled. After this im ganna go buy an ac unit and take it apart (and maybe an aquarium/pond pump while im there). Then look at size and dimensioning for all of it so i can decide on a custom made case/tank for it. After the case has been drawn up i will calculate the volume of liquid i should need if the tank was empty so that I will have plenty in case things go wrong. Research into the liquid i should use (from this forum, again thanks guys lol). Then order or buy the liquid if i can find it around here, if not the internet is a wonderful thing. After this itll be time for the fun part, makin it.

Quick question, if you over clock the CPU to a point where it fails, whill it damage the motherboard?

Usually no if your voltage isn't excessively high. Usually only one of them will die not both (I did have both dying but isolated incidents are more frequent)
 
my mobo's voltage regulator failed because i was consuming too much power, the cpus still perfectly fine, just the mobo needs new caps
 
ok, i was wondering for the purpose of demonstation after completion of the project, i might get a few cheap cpu's and over clock em quite a bit to see if i can push the limit a little with the extreme cooling
 
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